Quickdraw vs. Medium Mech

[ArcturusRising]

When I first assembled a Quickdraw I thought it might be an upgrade over the Vindicator I had been using in the early game. I thought a heavier mech would be able to equip more weaponry, but when I try to create the same loadout I am finding few significant differences other than the Quckdraw can move and jump a little further and has more structural hit points, but has worse cooling and acts in initiative phase 2 instead of 3.

I then compared the Quickdraw to a Shadowhawk I had been using. Both mechs have the same movement and jump distance and can equip about the same weight in weapons. The Shadowhawk will have better cooling with a ballistic weapon such as an AC 5, but can run out of ammo in longer engagements. The Quickdraw has slightly higher internal hit points, but has to act in phase 2.

I understand there are lore reasons for different mechs, because they are built by different manufacturers and in different times. So I checked Sarna.net to see what I could learn. The Quickdraw is a little older than the Vindicator, being built in 2779 by Luthien Armor Works, but upgraded models were being made through 3050 by Technicron Manufacturing. What is interesting is that the Quickdraw is able to fire it's lasers backwards and its modified ankles help it walk in rough terrain, although they are also easily damaged. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Quickdraw

The Vindicator is a newer mech, made in 2826 by Ceres Metals Industries and is largely used by the CCAF due to the high mark-up prices for spare parts for anyone who is not Capellan. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vindicator

What surprised me though is that the Shadow Hawk is a much older mech, made in 2550 during the Star League era, but this design never disappeared and two factories continued to make them through the Succession Wars, Earthwerks Incorporated and and Majesty Metals. The lore suggests they would sell to anyone. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Hawk

It raises the question, in my mind, what problem or economic need were the designers of the Quickdraw heavy mech trying to solve that wasn't already being solved by medium mechs? The Shadow Hawk was in production for a couple of hundred years before someone at Luthien Armor Works sat down at the drawing board. Did they try to make a newer, superior mech and fail? Were they hoping that the reverse firing and special ankles would be useful enough that militaries and merc companies would pay a premium for the Quickdraw? As a comparison, the Shadow Hawk is 20% cheaper and the Vindicator is 40% cheaper. If you're outfitting an entire army, those price differences are significant.

[steelcoresoviet]

For a certain type of government, fielding multiple Heavy Mechs for 1million more each than the price of heavy mediums, less manufacturer discount, would be appealing.

Also notable that the QD fits double the default missles of an SHD.

Probably the QD looked relatively impressive in testing and simulations, and obviously less so on the battlefield.

[Hyndis]

Most of it really is just trying to make a better mech and running into problems.

Its a tale as old as time; military contractors over-promise and under-deliver on everything except the price tag.

That said, in Battletech there is the logistics issue. Lasers use no ammunition. This makes keeping a mech in supply easier. You still need spare parts and the mech itself needs fuel, but you don't need to cart around crates of missiles and autocannon shells.

Quickdraw primarily uses energy weapons. The goal may have been to simplify the supply chain by eliminating the need for ammunition, however the project wasn't entirely successful.

The other issue that Battltech doesn't really capture is the strategic side of things. Faster mechs mean more strategic mobility. This doesn't matter too much at the level of the tactical where every battle in the game is a pitched battle, where all forces are in the field immediately adjacent to each other and the battle zone is small.

Scouts and high speed are massively valuable at the strategic level. If you can move faster than your opponent can react you can steamroll them. Two historical examples of that were Erwin Rommel's tanks in WWII, and American tanks in the Gulf War (both Gulf Wars). French, British, and Iraqi forces were unable to react fast enough to speedy tanks zooming on by, not only hitting with surprising speed, but moving so fast the tanks often engaged from the flanks or even the rear. Defensive lines crumbled against high speed armor.

Unfortunately due to the scale of the game there's no emphasis on strategic mobility and logistics, so a Quickdraw's benefits (energy weapons and faster speed) don't come in to play.

[Cormac]

you are missing one big point that doesn't come into play in this game (roguetech mod intrudices it back, but in vanilla, you don't have to worry about it)

engine size.
basicly, the larger the engine you use, the faster the mech can move. in #theory#(!!!), you can equip a heavy mech with the largest, most badass engine designed for assaults, and design a heavy mech as fast as most medium mechs..... and still faster than the urbie... but the large engine costs you a lot of tonnage, leaving you with a well armored fast moving heavy mech that doesn't fit that mich weapons/sinks.
i am saying in #theory# because lore wise, it's hard to make such drastic change on a mech, trust me if i tell you, 9 out of 10 mechtech tells you to not waste the time, with the last one telling you that strawberries stuffed in a ppc makes such a nice plop when fired.

but that said, in this game, a quickdraw has a large engine inside of it, which gives it a speed boost, and it might even be the only larger mech you can use for flanking without using jump sets for its mobility.

and lore wise, its the just the same as in our world. many weapons were developed and either droped during development or shortly after that because either not viable (technical reasons) to expansive or lose of buyers. look up the history of the heckler & koch G11, or the development of front bending wings on aircrafts.

someone thought they need a heavier mech for flanking/pushing fast&deep behind enemy lines, someone developed a mech, but in the end, either the development of the mech, the concept of a fast heavy mech or other designes that are supperior made the quickdraw a less usefull mech.

[Lack of Stuff]

The Quickdraw is like the Dragon. However, with the addition of coils maybe it can find new life, need to test.

[Zuul]

Part of why you’re having some troubling squaring this circle is that in the source material....there is no such thing as initiative phases. So that magical medium/heavy designation has no meaning outside of a quick way to describe tonnage ranges.

It’s also important to note that the AC/5 received a significant buff in the video game compared to the source material. In the source material it does the same damage as a medium laser. So to put it in perspective, the SHD has a pair of medium lasers (one of which has minimum range issues) and an SRM2. The QKD has 4 medium lasers and an SRM4...literally double the damage. Both mechs are extremely comparable for long range fire (although the QKD beats it in indirect fire).

As the final icing, the QKD is heavier so hits marginally harder in melee.

In all fairness, the SHD is an absolutely terrible mech in tabletop.

[wesnef]

Yeah, the lore isn't really a huge bearing on game performance most of the time.

And, as mentioned, "Initiative Phases" is a construct of this particular game. Which ends up effecting the mechs right on the border of a new Init Phase more than it does other mechs.

(It also doesn't help that, in the base game, all the 55 and 60 ton mechs are Speed 5, so there isn't a huge difference between them aside from the Init Phase and the fact that the Heavy jump jets weigh more. Heavy Metal's addition of the Rifleman, a 60 ton mech with Speed 4, adds a bit more decision-making to the 55/60 border.)

[Wantoomany]

The real reason is just this. The original 3025 technical readout had 55 different mechs in it. They had to provide at least one mech for every 5 ton weight bracket from 20 to 100. with all of them needing to be unique, and most needing to conform to various licensed art. There were simply bound to be a few stinkers in the bunch.

I figure mechs like the Quickdraw and Dragon, wholly new mechs and not born out of licensed art, where most likely done last and probably the hardest to be both unique and useful.

[pete]

Originally posted by Cormac:

you are missing one big point that doesn't come into play in this game (roguetech mod intrudices it back, but in vanilla, you don't have to worry about it)

engine size.
basicly, the larger the engine you use, the faster the mech can move. in #theory#(!!!), you can equip a heavy mech with the largest, most badass engine designed for assaults, and design a heavy mech as fast as most medium mechs..... and still faster than the urbie... but the large engine costs you a lot of tonnage, leaving you with a well armored fast moving heavy mech that doesn't fit that mich weapons/sinks.
i am saying in #theory# because lore wise, it's hard to make such drastic change on a mech, trust me if i tell you, 9 out of 10 mechtech tells you to not waste the time, with the last one telling you that strawberries stuffed in a ppc makes such a nice plop when fired.

but that said, in this game, a quickdraw has a large engine inside of it, which gives it a speed boost, and it might even be the only larger mech you can use for flanking without using jump sets for its mobility.

and lore wise, its the just the same as in our world. many weapons were developed and either droped during development or shortly after that because either not viable (technical reasons) to expansive or lose of buyers. look up the history of the heckler & koch G11, or the development of front bending wings on aircrafts.

someone thought they need a heavier mech for flanking/pushing fast&deep behind enemy lines, someone developed a mech, but in the end, either the development of the mech, the concept of a fast heavy mech or other designes that are supperior made the quickdraw a less usefull mech.

I agree - I think the jump jets (at least in TT) are heavier for Heavies

[Shinobi273]

Look at the Vulcan with its AC2 and close range specialization. The mechs don't really perform well stock all the time and the lore doesn't make sense much of the time. I think it is to allow custom mechs to outperform the story antagonists (in all games).

[WC?]

Originally posted by Shinobi273:

Look at the Vulcan with its AC2 and close range specialization. The mechs don't really perform well stock all the time and the lore doesn't make sense much of the time. I think it is to allow custom mechs to outperform the story antagonists (in all games).

Or the ever mysterious and useless 11th heatsink on the Urbie for that matter. Always removed for an extra ton AC ammo in my case. Like that it is included tho just to be faithful.

[Mike]

I prefer any 55t medium to the 60t dragon or quickdraw. quickdraw goes right to storage or the vendor when I have a bad month and need the C-Bills.

[TarZangief]

Translating from tabletop to this game isnt 1 to 1. Some things work as good. My favorite example is the Griffin and the Shadowhawk. In tabletop the GRF-1N (my personal favorite mech) is king of the 55 ton mechs, its Jump Jets, Fugison PPC, LRM 10 and good armor made it ideal as flanker. Meanwhile the Shadowhawk was a jack of all trades master of none. In this game however they boosted the AC5, nerfed the PPC, and with the turn order the way it is made the SHD the superior mech (though I still use the GRF 2N as my character's primary mech, using the new Inferno Missles to negate enemy assault and heavy mechs)

[WC?]

Originally posted by jonathan.j.arwood:

Translating from tabletop to this game isnt 1 to 1. Some things work as good. My favorite example is the Griffin and the Shadowhawk. In tabletop the GRF-1N (my personal favorite mech) is king of the 55 ton mechs, its Jump Jets, Fugison PPC, LRM 10 and good armor made it ideal as flanker. Meanwhile the Shadowhawk was a jack of all trades master of none. In this game however they boosted the AC5, nerfed the PPC, and with the turn order the way it is made the SHD the superior mech (though I still use the GRF 2N as my character's primary mech, using the new Inferno Missles to negate enemy assault and heavy mechs)

bruh burh bruh.... infernos on a GRF-2N?

"laughs in 7xinfernos++ CP-10-Q"

[Malkor2]

Not every Mech you get will be an upgrade to one you currently have. I always sell Quickdraws and Dragons. Although with the changes to arm mods (some of them now have zero weight) the Dragon can be used as a punch mech. The first heavy mechs that will be an upgrade over your medium mechs are the Thunderbolt and Jagermech variants.Then come the classics like Grasshopper, Black Knight and Orion K and V. The LRM Catapult is also nice to have. With the new DLC the Marauder is definitley a mech you want. With a 35% chance for a headshot that mech is so OP that i wonder if there will be a nerf in the future.

[WC?]

I like to think of quickdraws and dragons as wannabe 55 tonners that ended up 5 tons too heavy. Then they seem just right. Just dont think of it as a heavy mech at all, think of it as an over engined medium that sacrficed init to still have room for guns. And with the new arm mods you can solve the problem of the quickdraw's weak punches. Though those arms are still pretty brittle and losing that many 0ton arm mods hurts a bit when it happens.