Have the Devs even used a Medium Pulse Laser?

[Myriad]

And I'm not trying to be saucy. I'm just curious who did the math on that one. I know there are lots of rants out there already saying that MPLs sucked before the patch and they still suck now. But why?

Medium Laser: 25 damage, 1 ton, 12 heat.
M Pulse Laser: 30 damage, 2 tons, 16 heat.

Honestly you don't even have to use one to tell that adding a ton of weight and +4 heat over a Medium Laser, and giving it +5 damage just doesn't plug in. Why on Earth would anyone want to use one? Well.. I want to use one, but they suck. A measly ML+ with +5 damage is way better.

I understand that in the current state of the game there are no + variants for LosTech, but even if there were, what would you need to compete with that ML? You'd need significant ++ bonuses to make it worth it. And if that were the case the regular MPL would still be junk.

The description says something about it being accurate. I don't know if that's more than the usual Laser bonus or not, but accuracy really isn't a problem late game. A Large Laser has a damage of 40 with a considerable range. Even if the damage of the MPL was increased to 35, it would seem a little more useful. It has to have some advantage that works with the disadvantage of that extra ton.

It's LosTech comon! If the Star League had all their Mechs equipped with these MPLs, no wonder they became extinct.

Everyone feel free to share their ideas of how the MPL should differ from the ML.

[kknd]

Pulse lasers negate 1-2 cheverons of evasion. Not that the game UI tells you that anywhere. Combined with the base accuracy bonus of lasers, this makes them ideal tools for shooting sprinting light mechs or jumping medium mechs.

the MPL should have slightly shorter effective range and do notably more damage. That's generally how pulse lasers function, more tonnage, more heat, less range, but increased damage and impressive accuracy benefits.

MWO had a veriable to work with to simulate accuracy in short burn times that isn't present here of course, but in general Pulse Lasers suffer from lack of double heat sinks to prop them up in the heat department.

Rougetech has a solid implementation of them, mostly because Evasion ignoring is a much bigger benefit there.

[Lack of Stuff]

In vanilla the MPL has an accuracy modifier of -2 which translates into +10% accuracy. All regular lasers have at least -1. So all you are getting is +5% accuracy and if you have any ML+ varient you are better off with that.

Edit: MPLs would need to do 40 to 45 dmg to be worthwhile IMO.

[Myriad]

Originally posted by kknd:

Pulse lasers negate 1-2 cheverons of evasion. Not that the game UI tells you that anywhere.

This I didn't know. 2 chevrons could be worth something. I'm eager to test this out now.

[Lack of Stuff]

Originally posted by Myriad:

Originally posted by kknd:

Pulse lasers negate 1-2 cheverons of evasion. Not that the game UI tells you that anywhere.

This I didn't know. 2 chevrons could be worth something. I'm eager to test this out now.

Not sure this is true unless he's talking about Roguetech. Here's the relevant bit from the weapon profile.

"EvasivePipsIgnored" : 0,

[kknd]

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

Originally posted by Myriad:

This I didn't know. 2 chevrons could be worth something. I'm eager to test this out now.

Not sure this is true unless he's talking about Roguetech. Here's the relevant bit from the weapon profile.

"EvasivePipsIgnored" : 0,

Yeah that one's on me. It's just so sad that the SLDF's super advanced tech is about 90% garbage. The chassies are great, the heat sinks are great, heck the gauss rifle isn't bad. But Pulse and ER weapons are pretty weaksauce. (In fairness, ER lasers do exactly what it says on the tin.)

[Lack of Stuff]

Originally posted by kknd:

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

Not sure this is true unless he's talking about Roguetech. Here's the relevant bit from the weapon profile.

"EvasivePipsIgnored" : 0,

Yeah that one's on me. It's just so sad that the SLDF's super advanced tech is about 90% garbage. The chassies are great, the heat sinks are great, heck the gauss rifle isn't bad. But Pulse and ER weapons are pretty weaksauce. (In fairness, ER lasers do exactly what it says on the tin.):raven:

Yeah agreed, at least the ER L has SOMETHING over it's regular sibling but whomever designed the MPL was high even with the recent buffs. I'm just hoping that the alluded to ways to get Lostech in vanilla from the devs arn't just an enormous troll and include more than just MPLs and ERLs.

[Mistfox]

The tech was a translation of items from the TT, the damage and stats of the weapon were set even before this game was even in the conceptual phase. The main usage of the PLs were primarily their (slightly) higher damage and more importantly, their +2 to hit bonus. Just that these stats are not so obvious in this game.

The primary use for them as already mentioned, is light mech killers, they are the least affected by evasion and mech size due to their inherent accuracy. It's a +10% to hit, mount it on the arms, it's +15% or 3 chevrons. Enough to ignore the mech size penalty.

[Lack of Stuff]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

The tech was a translation of items from the TT, the damage and stats of the weapon were set even before this game was even in the conceptual phase. The main usage of the PLs were primarily their (slightly) higher damage and more importantly, their +2 to hit bonus. Just that these stats are not so obvious in this game.

The primary use for them as already mentioned, is light mech killers, they are the least affected by evasion and mech size due to their inherent accuracy. It's a +10% to hit, mount it on the arms, it's +15% or 3 chevrons. Enough to ignore the mech size penalty.

Got a few points to address about this.

First, I don't agree with the notion that TT rules should or even do dictate the stats of the in-game weapons. The ACs have had significant changes from their TT counterparts and the MPL with the heat reduction is no longer TT compliant.

Second, as the MPLs can only be used in campaign IIRC they need to balanced against what's available in the campaign. The ++ versions of the standard ML are all available by that point in the game where the player gets access to even a few MPLs and are all almost straight upgrades over the MPL. The intek gets +20% accuracy over the MPL +10% and the +10 dmg is also superior, all for less heat and weight.

As a last side-note each chevron gives +2 to difficulty to hit translating to -10% to hit each. 15% is 1.5 chevrons. It does nullify the +3 size bonus that lights get though.

[Strontiumdog]

In the time of the star league they had a lostech called ice which they used to attach to their overheating weapons.

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

Second, as the MPLs can only be used in campaign IIRC they need to balanced against what's available in the campaign. The ++ versions of the standard ML are all available by that point in the game where the player gets access to even a few MPLs and are all almost straight upgrades over the MPL. The intek gets +20% accuracy over the MPL +10% and the +10 dmg is also superior, all for less heat and weight.

As a last side-note each chevron gives +2 to difficulty to hit translating to -10% to hit each. 15% is 1.5 chevrons. It does nullify the +3 size bonus that lights get though.

Actually, it's the +++ system that is throwing the game out of balance, you can end up with 'normal' equipment that works even better than Lostech like you already pointed out. IMO it wasn't properly considered about the potential consequences when it was implemented. Why bother with Lostech when your 'normal' stuff works much better AND is replacable if damaged? Less heat too.

As for the last sidenote, oops, memory slip. Keep thinking 1 is 5%.

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by Shrike:

In the time of the star league they had a lostech called ice which they used to attach to their overheating weapons.

Pfft. I see your ice and ante up one coolant truck!

[Lack of Stuff]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

Second, as the MPLs can only be used in campaign IIRC they need to balanced against what's available in the campaign. The ++ versions of the standard ML are all available by that point in the game where the player gets access to even a few MPLs and are all almost straight upgrades over the MPL. The intek gets +20% accuracy over the MPL +10% and the +10 dmg is also superior, all for less heat and weight.

As a last side-note each chevron gives +2 to difficulty to hit translating to -10% to hit each. 15% is 1.5 chevrons. It does nullify the +3 size bonus that lights get though.

Actually, it's the +++ system that is throwing the game out of balance, you can end up with 'normal' equipment that works even better than Lostech like you already pointed out. IMO it wasn't properly considered about the potential consequences when it was implemented. Why bother with Lostech when your 'normal' stuff works much better AND is replacable if damaged? Less heat too.

As for the last sidenote, oops, memory slip. Keep thinking 1 is 5%.

Really? I never use the Diverse Optics ML+++, don't like the bonuses they give. Other weapon triple+ are good though but my point was mainly about the ML and MPL.

Edit: From a build perspective what's your preference? Do you find the DO ML+++ better than the Magna? I find the straight dmg better than the acc and crit but interested in other strats.

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

Really? I never use the Diverse Optics ML+++, don't like the bonuses they give. Other weapon triple+ are good though but my point was mainly about the ML and MPL.

It was always about the accuracy bonus. Even in TT, the choice was 2 ML or 1 MPL. It just depends on if you were going to swat flies or slug it out. ML was better overall damage, PL was better to hit. You know how elusive light mechs are? This lets you swat them better, especially if your pilots are low leveled in gunnery.

Not useless but very situational vs a specific set of targets. And assuming low level pilots. High level, they don't need aids to hit anymore.

Edit- Personally prefer damage, campaign long enough, your gunnery is going to compensate for low aim anyway.

Don't like PLs too but I know their niche function so I won't go all the way and call them useless, just very situational for low gunnery pilots on fleeting targets. Hell lol see the amount of 'this game hax!!' threads some players who can't handle elusive light mechs have posted up! lol. Pulse lasers are for them.

[Lack of Stuff]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

Really? I never use the Diverse Optics ML+++, don't like the bonuses they give. Other weapon triple+ are good though but my point was mainly about the ML and MPL.

It was always about the accuracy bonus. Even in TT, the choice was 2 ML or 1 MPL. It just depends on if you were going to swat flies or slug it out. ML was better overall damage, PL was better to hit. You know how elusive light mechs are? This lets you swat them better, especially if your pilots are low leveled in gunnery.

Not useless but very situational vs a specific set of targets. And assuming low level pilots. High level, they don't need aids to hit anymore.

Edit- Personally prefer damage, campaign long enough, your gunnery is going to compensate for low aim anyway.

Don't like PLs too but I know their niche function so I won't go all the way and call them useless, just very situational for low gunnery pilots on fleeting targets. Hell lol see the amount of 'this game hax!!' threads some players who can't handle elusive light mechs have posted up! lol. Pulse lasers are for them.

I think the problem is by the time I got the MPL and the good + varients both my pilots had high gunnery and light mechs dissapeared almost entirely outside of maybe 1 or 2 campaign missions. Again if MPLs were allowed in Multi then I'd say they had a place but for some reason they arn't I don't think.

Edit: Also the AI needs work when it comes to light mech handling. Too many times I've seen a locust forego evasion just to fire some MGs at my front.

[Ravenbom]

@ OP - The old TT game was a dice game and having to hit modifiers helped to guarentee hits against bad dice rolls.
IIRC, they gave a to hit modifier of 2. (A lot in a 2D6 game, 5-9 are the most common dice rolls so adding 2 is a HUGE help) So range is decreased to offset the ability to fire long range with little to no penelty.

So basically the TT thinking is: the way a regular Med Laser might miss one turn and hit the second, with a pulse laser you sacrifice tonage and heat to make sure you hit the first time.
Firing a Med Laser twice to hit once is twice as much heat, or mounting two med lasers is twice as much weight.
Also for balance, they added more damage, but didn't double it, so heat was still an issue.


If you've played Bravely Default or the couple other similar RPG systems (Octopath Traveler will have a similar system) where you can "Brave" and spend up to 4 turns of attacks at once, you can see the logic.

Pulse lasers had very clear risk/reward. (More damage virtually guarenteed to hit for higher heat and tonnage and they hindered longer fights)


In practice, even in the TT, pulse lasers weren't great over time. Lots of times, the standard Inner Sphere Med Laser was still the best bang for your buck, but you also needed one or two big guns to punch holes in armor.



Because there's sort of a "cover" system in place (Bulwark, 25% tree cover, and missles don't group in 5's) carrying a mix of med lasers, big gun (AC or PPC), and missles for crit chances (mix of weapons was supposed to balance the best), A LOT of the TT balance doesn't completely translate.

By the time you get to assaults, Bulwark will effectively double the armor on your assaults so big guns like ACs and PPCs feel like pea shooters, when they shouldn't.