do heat banks work properly? do they stack?

[Napoleonic S]

I really have a hard time figuring if heat banks actually works properly in the game...

the outfitting UI sell me the idea that they work wonderfully, like 1 heat bank add 4-5 bar of the heat efficiency meter??? however in reality I can't tell if they works any better than a dual heat sink (I mean here single DHS vs single standard heat bank that add 10 max heat and 5 heat treshold)

I also can't tell if they could even works stacked? I mean does fitting a mech with 2 standard heat banks mean the mech can actually tolerate 30 more heat? and thus perform better than 2 DHS? (more than 2x better?)

anyone can help me confirming whether or not they actually works? or should I stick to DHS and pray that I can buy heat exchanger somewhere? lol.

[AbsynthMinded]

They are pretty awesome. Best rare taech in the game followed by the exchangers. Dont think they Stack but not sure. Kinda bulky.

[Napoleonic S]

Originally posted by AbsynthMinded:

They are pretty awesome. Best rare taech in the game followed by the exchangers. Dont think they Stack but not sure. Kinda bulky.

really? I can't tell lol... the heat mechanic UI is so poor here... and actually also one of the crux of the problem is, do heat banks stack over the maximum heat tolerance that came from pilot skills?

also is it better than heat exchanger?

[Pherdnut]

The UI is confused by banks and exchangers. Ignore it the second they're involved. Exchangers actually reduce your rating when they're the best thing you can add.

Banks are no good unless you already have pretty-good sinking. They only extend the amount of heat you can take before the mech starts taking damage or shuts down. If one or two alphas maxes your heat, the exchanger probably won't help much. With decent sinking the weakest one might get you another alpha or two before you need to take a break.

Exchangers are great because they reduce total heat produced, often allowing you to squeeze in another weapon or two before you run into that severe heat curve where no amount of sinks will make the build more than a one-shot wonder. The ++ is insanely hard to find without cheating but regular exchangers will pop up in stores if you watch for them as you travel multiple systems. A couple regular exchangers is no joke. Definitely makes energy-focused ranged builds a lot more feasible. Echangers give diminishing returns I believe. If it's like first 10%, then 10% off the remaining 90%, that's still insanely good. Still havent' tried multiple yet.

As a rule, if you already have a heat problem. Don't look to banks. If you have a mech with more than 2 alphas before overheat, try an exchanger and see what happens. Its weight in heat sinks might still be better.

[AbsynthMinded]

On your heat bar, try a mission with one and see where the line is, and try it without. As stated with good skills on the pilot and sinking it makes the most difference. But the math of the bank affets that heat line in two ways. It make the line 'longer' by adding additional heat management capacity, and it pushes the line out farther for the maximum amount of heat able to be managed before a shutdown. Because the UI does not actually make the line longer it rarely looks like its doing its job, but believe me it does. In conjunction with a Exchanger, its quite impressive. With the ++ of both its almost rediculious with a Guts 8 and the Double Sinks.

[Pherdnut]

Originally posted by napoleonic_sp007rz:

really? I can't tell lol... the heat mechanic UI is so poor here... and actually also one of the crux of the problem is, do heat banks stack over the maximum heat tolerance that came from pilot skills?

also is it better than heat exchanger?

I think they expand the bar total and pilot improvements hit it at the same percentages. If you have good heat sinking with some weight to spare they might be good, but the UI's lack of detail kind of frustrates figuring out when they would be most helpful. I suspect it would never make sense to add one heat bank over one heat exchanger if weight was tight. An exchanger either gives you more guns or lets you drop a ton of sinks. Heat bank lets you handle a little more heat without damage.

[DarkFenix]

Heat banks aren't worth it. Pilot skills already get the overheat threshold up to 90, you're better off adding more heat sinks to prevent yourself reaching it in the first place.

Heat exchangers on the other hand, one of those can be amazing on the right mech. If you ever feel the need to put more than one on, your mech build is crap because you're using far too much tonnage on heat dissapation.

[Napoleonic S]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Heat banks aren't worth it. Pilot skills already get the overheat threshold up to 90, you're better off adding more heat sinks to prevent yourself reaching it in the first place.

Why? Does the threshold cannot get higher than 90 or 100 or something?

Have anyone looked into the code for this?

[L37]

"++" heat bank adds 15/30 IIRC, and it works with 10-10-10-10 pilots.
The issue i have with it is that it does not actually sink any heat, only stores it. And those 15 heat are what, single SRM6 shot?
IMO only usefull in very specific situations, in most cases adding extra heatsink seems better.

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by napoleonic_sp007rz:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Heat banks aren't worth it. Pilot skills already get the overheat threshold up to 90, you're better off adding more heat sinks to prevent yourself reaching it in the first place.

Why? Does the threshold cannot get higher than 90 or 100 or something?

Have anyone looked into the code for this?

Good question actually, the bar goes up to 100 by default, at which point your mech shuts down altogether. If the heat bank actually extended the bar so that you could get away with more before shutting down (since overheat damage isn't actually a big deal) it could actually be useful on some novelty setups.

[danko9696]

Originally posted by napoleonic_sp007rz:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Heat banks aren't worth it. Pilot skills already get the overheat threshold up to 90, you're better off adding more heat sinks to prevent yourself reaching it in the first place.

Why? Does the threshold cannot get higher than 90 or 100 or something?

Have anyone looked into the code for this?

Yes, it can. IMO is very good for brawlers with JJ, who sometimes generate spikes of heat because the jumps. I think is very good not because the effect is huge (it's not), but because it's only one ton (although it takes a lot of internal crit space), and for that I think is a bargain extra +15 overheat +30 max heat. If the mech depends on doing sustainable damage along many turns then it's not so good and you'd better with a HS. Also I think only is worth the ++ version. But between DHS and Banks, I'd say almost always the DHS are better if you have them to spare. Between normal HS and Banks++, I'd take a single Bank++ (only one) over one regular HS any day. Anyway I only use them in assault mechs with JJ. And of course if you are jumping all the time they are not good, but for a brawler jumping not as a means of defence but to close distance faster and positioning I think is pretty nice.


The Exchangers can be very good but also almost always are not better than DHS, more than one will not be more efficient than DHS. And even then, if you don't alpha very often then their efficiency begin to drop very rapidly compared to DHS, they are very difficult to justify for bracket builds. On the up side they can be very useful to substitute some DHS even when less efficient just to distribute them (the DHS) to other mechs of the lance. For example in my brawler would be better to use 9 DHS + no HEX but I prefer to use 5 DHS + 1 HEX++, a bit worse but I can free four DHS for the other mechs.

Another benefit of the HEX is that using many they can enable high heat builds that wouldn't be effective otherwise like 4-5 PPC boats with many turns of alpha, and that they are rare but they can be farmed, moving between some planets repeatedly and checking the inventory without entering orbit. But yes, I have at least one in all my setups, and in some very heat intensive 4-5. Apart from that they are not affected by the environment, which is a pro, but on the other side they don't reduce JJ heat, which can be a big heat source.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Good question actually, the bar goes up to 100 by default, at which point your mech shuts down altogether. If the heat bank actually extended the bar so that you could get away with more before shutting down (since overheat damage isn't actually a big deal) it could actually be useful on some novelty setups.

The bank actually extend the bar over 100, both in the UI (very noticeable with the ++ version) and you can confirm it in the logs.

[Napoleonic S]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Originally posted by napoleonic_sp007rz:

Why? Does the threshold cannot get higher than 90 or 100 or something?

Have anyone looked into the code for this?

Yes, it can. IMO is very good for brawlers with JJ, who sometimes generate spikes of heat because the jumps. I think is very good not because the effect is huge (it's not), but because it's only one ton (although it takes a lot of internal crit space), and for that I think is a bargain extra +15 overheat +30 max heat. If the mech depends on doing sustainable damage along many turns then it's not so good and you'd better with a HS. Also I think only is worth the ++ version. But between DHS and Banks, I'd say almost always the DHS are better if you have them to spare. Between normal HS and Banks++, I'd take a single Bank++ (only one) over one regular HS any day. Anyway I only use them in assault mechs with JJ. And of course if you are jumping all the time they are not good, but for a brawler jumping not as a means of defence but to close distance faster and positioning I think is pretty nice.


The Exchangers can be very good but also almost always are not better than DHS, more than one will not be more efficient than DHS. And even then, if you don't alpha very often then their efficiency begin to drop very rapidly compared to DHS, they are very difficult to justify for bracket builds. On the up side they can be very useful to substitute some DHS even when less efficient just to distribute them (the DHS) to other mechs of the lance. For example in my brawler would be better to use 9 DHS + no HEX but I prefer to use 5 DHS + 1 HEX++, a bit worse but I can free four DHS for the other mechs.

Another benefit of the HEX is that using many they can enable high heat builds that wouldn't be effective otherwise like 4-5 PPC boats with many turns of alpha, and that they are rare but they can be farmed, moving between some planets repeatedly and checking the inventory without entering orbit. But yes, I have at least one in all my setups, and in some very heat intensive 4-5. Apart from that they are not affected by the environment, which is a pro, but on the other side they don't reduce JJ heat, which can be a big heat source.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Good question actually, the bar goes up to 100 by default, at which point your mech shuts down altogether. If the heat bank actually extended the bar so that you could get away with more before shutting down (since overheat damage isn't actually a big deal) it could actually be useful on some novelty setups.

The bank actually extend the bar over 100, both in the UI (very noticeable with the ++ version) and you can confirm it in the logs.

Thx for the detailed info

Still I don't quite get the idea of why a bank can be any worse than a dhs.

Isn't the math goes like this

A ppc shot generate 40 heat, engine heat sink cools 30 heat and a dhs cools another 6 heat, so next turn you start at 4 heat out of say 90 max heat before overheating

Now with a heat bank, wouldn't it result in you start the next turn at 10 heat but with 105 max heat allowed?

So 86 heat allowed vs 95 heat allowed for the next turn?

So...? Why can a bank be in any inferior way than a dhs?

[danko9696]

Originally posted by napoleonic_sp007rz:

Originally posted by danko9696:

Yes, it can. IMO is very good for brawlers with JJ, who sometimes generate spikes of heat because the jumps. I think is very good not because the effect is huge (it's not), but because it's only one ton (although it takes a lot of internal crit space), and for that I think is a bargain extra +15 overheat +30 max heat. If the mech depends on doing sustainable damage along many turns then it's not so good and you'd better with a HS. Also I think only is worth the ++ version. But between DHS and Banks, I'd say almost always the DHS are better if you have them to spare. Between normal HS and Banks++, I'd take a single Bank++ (only one) over one regular HS any day. Anyway I only use them in assault mechs with JJ. And of course if you are jumping all the time they are not good, but for a brawler jumping not as a means of defence but to close distance faster and positioning I think is pretty nice.


The Exchangers can be very good but also almost always are not better than DHS, more than one will not be more efficient than DHS. And even then, if you don't alpha very often then their efficiency begin to drop very rapidly compared to DHS, they are very difficult to justify for bracket builds. On the up side they can be very useful to substitute some DHS even when less efficient just to distribute them (the DHS) to other mechs of the lance. For example in my brawler would be better to use 9 DHS + no HEX but I prefer to use 5 DHS + 1 HEX++, a bit worse but I can free four DHS for the other mechs.

Another benefit of the HEX is that using many they can enable high heat builds that wouldn't be effective otherwise like 4-5 PPC boats with many turns of alpha, and that they are rare but they can be farmed, moving between some planets repeatedly and checking the inventory without entering orbit. But yes, I have at least one in all my setups, and in some very heat intensive 4-5. Apart from that they are not affected by the environment, which is a pro, but on the other side they don't reduce JJ heat, which can be a big heat source.


The bank actually extend the bar over 100, both in the UI (very noticeable with the ++ version) and you can confirm it in the logs.

Thx for the detailed info

Still I don't quite get the idea of why a bank can be any worse than a dhs.

Isn't the math goes like this

A ppc shot generate 40 heat, engine heat sink cools 30 heat and a dhs cools another 6 heat, so next turn you start at 4 heat out of say 90 max heat before overheating

Now with a heat bank, wouldn't it result in you start the next turn at 10 heat but with 105 max heat allowed?

So 86 heat allowed vs 95 heat allowed for the next turn?

So...? Why can a bank be in any inferior way than a dhs?

It depends on the playstyle and what do you expect for the mech todo, what role and what other equipment, weapons, lance setup, ...

Let's say you want to be able to fire six times in a row without overheating if necessary, because it's a long range fire support mech that may have always some target to shoot during the battle. You won't always do that but you want to know you can do it and also have some safety margin for martian/desert biomes. Then the Bank doesn't look so good vs the DHS 6x6 = 36 heat. Not saying that the bank it's useless in this scenario but you mostly want sustainable damage over long periods of time. If you could add 4-5 of them, maybe, but they use 6 crit slots each (the ++ version) in the mech lab, which can easily be a bottleneck rather than the weight.

Now assume you have other mech for close combat, using JJ to close distances, maybe alpha two-three times in a row, four maximum with overheating, expecting to do a lot of damage in a short period of time, finishing the local fight quickly, and after that possibly move into another location while cooling a bit or just stop for cooling down one turn. Here a bit of extra capacity is interesting. A bank++ for one ton could give you another alpha without over heating, or a 75% alpha but jumping. And you generate so much heat duríng combat that a single DSH would help but not so much in the short run when factoring the jump + alpha or 2-3 alphas without jump, and also DHS are vey limited in quantity.


If you've played some rpgs the bank is like a bonus to maximum mana while the DHS is like a bonus to mana regen. If you're into spike damage the first option might be the right one, while if you're into moderate but continuous damage the second might be better in the long run.

[L37]

Originally posted by danko9696:

...
Now assume you have other mech for close combat, using JJ to close distances, maybe alpha two-three times in a row, four maximum with overheating, expecting to do a lot of damage in a short period of time, finishing the local fight quickly, and after that possibly move into another location while cooling a bit or just stop for cooling down one turn. Here a bit of extra capacity is interesting. A bank++ for one ton could give you another alpha without over heating, or a 75% alpha but jumping. And you generate so much heat duríng combat that a single DSH would help but not so much in the short run when factoring the jump + alpha or 2-3 alphas without jump, and also DHS are vey limited in quantity.
...

The issue here is - 2 turns with DHS = 12 heat, 3 turns = 18. So if you already can fire full alpha for 2 turns DHS is strictly better, because on 3-rd turn it will be 18 heat dissipated instead of 15 stored.
It looks a bit better with regular HS, but even in this case bank is only worth the space if you plan to have considerable periods of downtime during combat. In my expirience most battles late-game do not work like this, even brawlers have 1 turn free at most, and 1 turn is not enough to vent all the heat.

IMO for bank to be really usefull it needs to offer like ~50 storage instead of 15, this way it will actually offer one more alpha strike instead of single extra ML shot...

[danko9696]

Originally posted by L37:

The issue here is - 2 turns with DHS = 12 heat, 3 turns = 18. So if you already can fire full alpha for 2 turns DHS is strictly better, because on 3-rd turn it will be 18 heat dissipated instead of 15 stored.
It looks a bit better with regular HS, but even in this case bank is only worth the space if you plan to have considerable periods of downtime during combat. In my expirience most battles late-game do not work like this, even brawlers have 1 turn free at most, and 1 turn is not enough to vent all the heat.

IMO for bank to be really usefull it needs to offer like ~50 storage instead of 15, this way it will actually offer one more alpha strike instead of single extra ML shot...

It depends on what are you taking into account, if only the extra +15% overheat or also the +30% max heat before shutting down.