SRM/LRM Carriers are so OP

[Soylent_Greene]

DEVS:>>>

It seems the easiest way for mechs to die in this game is for you to park a spotter with Sensor Lock somewhere on the field and then host 2 LRM carriers.
The Mechwarriors will be dead of head hits before the get to the LRMS.

There was a reason LRMS clustered in tabletop and the SRM was limited to a 6pack.

It's called GAME BALANCE.

The meanest mech I have is a Trebuchet configured with 4x SRM-6 racks, 2x ML and HS up the wazzoo... I close on the target, get the "golden BB" hit and blamo, dead target...


Your Missile Mechanics NEEDS review, or the toughest lance of mechs will be an Atlas Spotter backed up by 3x Catapults (Longbows or Archers if you ever put them back into the game)...

[℧ | Tyke]

Publicado originalmente por Cheesehead:

The way the campaign works is one thing. The AI has it's limits, obviously. Also, vehicles are a poor example of defining just how effective LRMs are compared to other weapon systems. The AI in the game, in my opinion, is good enough to provide enough relaxing entertainment without it being completely moronic.

The whole point of the whole discussion is about the LRMs.

You want to really cheese someone? First, take a somewhat robust medium mech with jump jets and have a pilot that can sensor lock.

Second, take your other 3 mechs that have decent LRM loadouts. LRM 20s if you want to be mean, or 15s if you want to humiliate them.

Use your medium jumping mech to spot and sensor lock. Sensor lock takes 2 defense away straight off.

Finally, keep raining LRMs down and keep moving your missile mechs. Not only will you crit internals and head doink alot, but the LRMs also destabilize the target mech easily and cause it to fall. This will result in more cheese damage.

It's relatively easy to knock down Atlas mechs with much smaller mechs without any real strategy at all. Once you cheese your opponent's first mech, it just gets easier to finish off the rest.

You can test this yourself against the AI if you want in skirmish mode. It's relatively easy to defeat 4 atlases with much smaller mechs.

LRM cheesing a person takes a tad more thought, but you can usually get the same result depending on the skill of someone. It just feels sorta cheap IMHO.

Mathmatically, LRMs have advantages that other weapons just don't have. In fact, 2 LRM 15s, instead of using the 20s, are very ammo efficient because of the way tonnage and heat works. You don't need two 20s basically. Yah, I know that is hard to explain, but you will just have to test it yourself.

Also, in the board game, you couldn't make targetted shots with missiles. Only direct fire weapons were allowed, like lasers and such. Missiles were described as having their own targetting systems, and were inelligible for exact targetting.

I know this is a computerized version of the game with modifications to some mechanics, but I tend to side with the board game because I enjoyed it so much. I also enjoy this game quite a bit, and I'm happy I bought it.

I wonder about onething, I sadly never played the TT yet, maybe I will find a group when I'm back in Germany, but why is it so easily possible to get such easy indirect hits. When I remember reading the novels, the early ones, everytime I get reminded by the novels how "hard" it was to hit something, how lucky it was to hit anything and Data-Links between Mechs were based on some kind of "laser beam" from mech to mech or a glasfibre cable (mechs had to be immobile). Guess maybe you could balance it with the probability of hits via indirect fire?

[blueberryicecreamcake]

This is why having multiple engagement distances is important. Luckily srm and lrm launchers pop like bubbles if you're in range.

[Wales Grey]

Publicado originalmente por Dr.ReLax aka Brantkanne:

I wonder about onething, I sadly never played the TT yet, maybe I will find a group when I'm back in Germany, but why is it so easily possible to get such easy indirect hits. When I remember reading the novels, the early ones, everytime I get reminded by the novels how "hard" it was to hit something, how lucky it was to hit anything and Data-Links between Mechs were based on some kind of "laser beam" from mech to mech or a glasfibre cable (mechs had to be immobile). Guess maybe you could balance it with the probability of hits via indirect fire?

the reason why indirect fire is more possible in battletech vs. cbt is because in cbt indirect fire isn't a super hot option.

in battletech, all you need to do is just shoot lrms while you have los either from a spotter or from sensors, probably gonna see 50% hits with dece skills.

in cbt, you need to have the spotter forfit their shooting (iirc?) and you get double movement penalties on the attack roll (tmm+shooter movement mod+spotter movement mod), and there's an extra +1 tn mod just for kicks. with average skills, short range (specifically range 8 for lrms, that minimum range is killer) you're looking to beat 4+0+0+0+0+1=5 on 2d6 which is pretty easy (83%). a more realistic scenario for indirect lrms would be launcher's walked, spotter's moved, target's moved, medium range, target is in heavy woods which pushes the tn out to 4+1+2+2+2+2+1=10 (about 17%). admittedly, tn9 is pretty doable (same deal but one of the listed "movements" doesn't happen) but at the same time it's not a common thing because you're now missing out on a round of shooting from another robot to make an attack maybe happen.

[Black Hammer]

It doesn't help that early missions are full of SRM and LRM boats who can do a wound by landing one of the dozen or more missiles spammed on your head.

These things are doing 4 damage, but instant wound.

[Cheesehead]

Publicado originalmente por Falconeer:

Please stop saying "just move dude" or "sprint towards the carrier and kill them". As Cheesehead pointed out, the problem is serious in MULTIPLAYER (in case you did not know, Battletech was and is first of all a multiplayer game so it has to be balanced around that, not single player and iffy AIs) and this is because of the head injuries occurring too frequently, which is something only LRMs can do (that frequently).

You can kit an Assault 'mech with a lot of LRMs and with a spotter that will be a rain of missiles. Mind, they won't destroy your 'mech, but they will too easily injure a pilot. And what if you had two missile carriers? An Assault and a Heavy? Before answering quickly, go in the multiplayer lobby wih a friend and test it out. Also, "use Evasion charges". Riiiiight, and how are Heavy and Assault 'mechs supposed to get 4+ Evasion Charges? Even less so if Sensor Locked?

As we tried to say multiple times, the problem with the LRMs is not how much damage they can deliver, they are not gonna destroy your 'mech. It lies in the fact that due to a design flaw in the cluster hits and pilot injury systems, weapons that roll a lot of location rolls can just kill a pilot WAY before they even seriously damage a Heavy or Assault 'mech. Within a single firing action, the LRMs simply make a lot more attempts at hitting the head and causing an injury than any other weapon.

Again, before you bring your gut feelings to this conversation, go test it out in multiplayer where YOU take the LRM boats/carriers and sensor lock and pepper the enemy slower 'mechs and tell me if that isn't pure cheese or tell me how they countered you.

I think an easy fix would be: no pilot injury for head hits under a certain damage threshold, like say 8. If enough LRMs hit in a salvo for a total of 8 (more? less?) damage, then it's a pilot injury. It just can't be that any head hit is an injury. It's broken, it's silly.

It's real hard to get people to listen for second, isn't it? I agree so much with what you said. All we are asking for is a bit of play balance. I did a lot of testing, and LRMs feel like cheating. It's either people either don't care, or really haven't played much. Games never release perfect, and do require balancing adjustments. It almost feels like asking for some fairness is out of the question. Battletech was originally designed with the idea of WW2 tanks slugging it out, not artillery wars. It's not unusual for people to play a game, and notice some obvious imbalances in design.

Originally, SRMs were designed to be crit hunting missles. That is why the game design limited the amount of missiles per volley. (SRM2, SRM4, SRM6). LRMs were designed to chunk off armor like an AC5. While there were more missiles per launcher, they clustered damage. If all missiles hit with an LRM20 in this video game, thats 20 chances to crit. Originally, since hits were clusters of 5, that would be 4 chances to crit with a volley. This math should be completely obvious. It just doesnt feel right. It should also be obvious that crits are what you want. So, yah, it doesn't work right.

I do, however, like the adjustment of how they changed MGs so they don't feel completely worthless like they did in the original game. MGs were originally conceived to slaughter infantry. Having no infantry in this game, I think, was a good design choice.

Overall, most of the design choices of this game are pretty creative, and make sense. I haven't been able to stop playing since I bought it. I do, however, believe the LRMs deserve a second look by the developers.

[watcherzero]

Pfff
If Macross taught us one thing its that Missile Spam never works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzXfVgYCxWI

[Drakken]

They are OP on the board game they are OP on computer games, NP with that.

[Drakken]

Wait for planes's bombs... That's OP !

[Liren]

So, the missions slightly randomize what you face based on weight. It really should take difficulty into account based on what it can pull. A 1.5 "skull" mission, for instance, should not show up rocking one overarmored striker (120 side armor, seriously?) and three SRM carriers while being backed up by 180T of mechs.

I get that the more powerful vehicles need to be tackled differently - either with range, or by "sneaking" closer to get a melee hit in, but the amount of armor they're packing takes out flanking as an option - tasking 2/4 to kill unless you get lucky/call the shot with morale isn't going to work.

I can sorta understand the armament, but they're also not slow. These things are only 1-2 tiles slower than the wheeled APCs. I'd say they either need lighter armor, or a slower speed.

[Strayed]

Publicado originalmente por Cheesehead:

Publicado originalmente por Falconeer:

Please stop saying "just move dude" or "sprint towards the carrier and kill them". As Cheesehead pointed out, the problem is serious in MULTIPLAYER (in case you did not know, Battletech was and is first of all a multiplayer game so it has to be balanced around that, not single player and iffy AIs) and this is because of the head injuries occurring too frequently, which is something only LRMs can do (that frequently).

You can kit an Assault 'mech with a lot of LRMs and with a spotter that will be a rain of missiles. Mind, they won't destroy your 'mech, but they will too easily injure a pilot. And what if you had two missile carriers? An Assault and a Heavy? Before answering quickly, go in the multiplayer lobby wih a friend and test it out. Also, "use Evasion charges". Riiiiight, and how are Heavy and Assault 'mechs supposed to get 4+ Evasion Charges? Even less so if Sensor Locked?

As we tried to say multiple times, the problem with the LRMs is not how much damage they can deliver, they are not gonna destroy your 'mech. It lies in the fact that due to a design flaw in the cluster hits and pilot injury systems, weapons that roll a lot of location rolls can just kill a pilot WAY before they even seriously damage a Heavy or Assault 'mech. Within a single firing action, the LRMs simply make a lot more attempts at hitting the head and causing an injury than any other weapon.

Again, before you bring your gut feelings to this conversation, go test it out in multiplayer where YOU take the LRM boats/carriers and sensor lock and pepper the enemy slower 'mechs and tell me if that isn't pure cheese or tell me how they countered you.

I think an easy fix would be: no pilot injury for head hits under a certain damage threshold, like say 8. If enough LRMs hit in a salvo for a total of 8 (more? less?) damage, then it's a pilot injury. It just can't be that any head hit is an injury. It's broken, it's silly.

It's real hard to get people to listen for second, isn't it? I agree so much with what you said. All we are asking for is a bit of play balance. I did a lot of testing, and LRMs feel like cheating. It's either people either don't care, or really haven't played much. Games never release perfect, and do require balancing adjustments. It almost feels like asking for some fairness is out of the question. Battletech was originally designed with the idea of WW2 tanks slugging it out, not artillery wars. It's not unusual for people to play a game, and notice some obvious imbalances in design.

Originally, SRMs were designed to be crit hunting missles. That is why the game design limited the amount of missiles per volley. (SRM2, SRM4, SRM6). LRMs were designed to chunk off armor like an AC5. While there were more missiles per launcher, they clustered damage. If all missiles hit with an LRM20 in this video game, thats 20 chances to crit. Originally, since hits were clusters of 5, that would be 4 chances to crit with a volley. This math should be completely obvious. It just doesnt feel right. It should also be obvious that crits are what you want. So, yah, it doesn't work right.

I do, however, like the adjustment of how they changed MGs so they don't feel completely worthless like they did in the original game. MGs were originally conceived to slaughter infantry. Having no infantry in this game, I think, was a good design choice.

Overall, most of the design choices of this game are pretty creative, and make sense. I haven't been able to stop playing since I bought it. I do, however, believe the LRMs deserve a second look by the developers.

Good points Cheesehead

I would have loved to see infantry in Battletech as they were scary units in TT if you didn't have mechs with MG's (and if you were a sneaky cunning IS player like me, you'd hide your infantry in difficult terrain and lure enemies into range of their SRMs); but I'm digressing (as usual lol!)

I think, and as you have pointed out, the issue with LRMs is that it would seem it was difficult to translate the clustering rules to Battletech. Sure, it needs to be addressed, but wracking my brain I can't think of anythign constructive to give the Devs to consider as it would seem that there's no real "fair way" of doing it without making them useless like they are in MWO; which I'm sure there's players here who like to missile boat.

General point aimed at the reader:
In my opinion, it would seem that perhaps the people having issues with them are possibly (I'm only making a generalisation) aren't utilising the game mechincs to the full effect; that is, breaking LOS, using evasion counters, using JJ's to rocket turn to negate movement penalties, moving to inside the LRMs minimum range. I honestly, do not have issues with LRM boats - in fact in MP so far I have punished those players harshly by neutralising their spotter within two turns of detection and then sprinting to close range with the LRMer and shoving the barrels of my AC20s into the cockpits and giving them the good news.

Sorry.. digressing...

My experience so far:
While I like the way LRMs (and SRMs) work at the moment (noting I don't use LRMs for the fact that my play style is run and gun to which SRMs suit better) and they are meant to be particularly nasty, especially when they start raining down as IDF, there are ways to mitigate a LRMer. First one, is to primary target the spotter/s and send a fast striker to where the IDF LRMer is shooting from. Secondly, use of cover, breaking LOS and generating evasion counters.

As a general point for those reading, remember, LRMs are meant to scare and intimidate light and medium mechs but are mostly a threat for Heavy and Assault mechs (remember those evasion counters I mentioned - they reduce damage recieved and then cover bonuses come into play to reduce further). Basically, you need to "speed tank" LRMs. So, do not turret fest a LRMer - stay mobile (you should be staying mobile and always showing your front arc to the enemy); use sprint to generate your evasion and go straight for their IDFS mech. If its a brawler using LRMs (which is foolish) then envelope the target so the target has mechs on all of its arcs and then primary the crap out of it.


[edit: added the below]
Dear reader, think of a lance composition like this:
You have a Tank - (brawler)
You have DPS - (strikers)
You have Heals - (support + scouts)

If you were playing Arena or BG in WoW - which class do you attack first?

[watcherzero]

Publicado originalmente por Liren:

So, the missions slightly randomize what you face based on weight. It really should take difficulty into account based on what it can pull. A 1.5 "skull" mission, for instance, should not show up rocking one overarmored striker (120 side armor, seriously?) and three SRM carriers while being backed up by 180T of mechs.

I get that the more powerful vehicles need to be tackled differently - either with range, or by "sneaking" closer to get a melee hit in, but the amount of armor they're packing takes out flanking as an option - tasking 2/4 to kill unless you get lucky/call the shot with morale isn't going to work.

I can sorta understand the armament, but they're also not slow. These things are only 1-2 tiles slower than the wheeled APCs. I'd say they either need lighter armor, or a slower speed.

Planets have difficulty ratings (can be seen on starmap) then the missions on those planets have difficulty ratings which advises reccomended tonnage.

[EmperorVolo]

It's harebrained schemes it's just the way it goes. A lot of choices are poor ones, I remember thinking a lot about that with Shadowrun. They don't improve the system they make everything worse.

The only reason any of them sell is because a man dieing from lack of water will drink anything. I'm not sure why they think they have to make every system so "arcade-like".

Like right now I can't help but say are we really fighting other "valuable" mechwarriors? Cause I haven't seen one panic and eject. I say we're actually in a training simulation that went haywire and now we're stuck inside.

[卖女孩的小火柴]

Publicado originalmente por mmathat:

When I posted this comment it was meant as an observation on how badly this game has changed the basic tabletop rules.

Think about it, in tabletop you hit the cockpit 1 in 36 rolls or 1 in 6 if shooting on the "punch" table.

So if you use that as a baseline (the experience of having played tabletop BT since 1988), attacking a mech with any LRM system, firing from beyond LOS, means that single missiles destroy the rarity of pilot damage.
ALSO, when a mech fell down on Tabletop there was a piloting roll to prevent damage, usually a 3 or 4 and greater on 2D6.

My point about this whole thread needs to be more succinct, in that they are F#@*ing up the basic game with this ease of damage to mechwarriors.

Now, lets put it into a different perspective.

Mechwarriors usually attend academies or universities for a couple of years before they see field work in a battlemech. The very game system says that mechs are rare and expensive commodities. The training for mechwarriors are also expensive.
NO house would continue to field mechs if every time one fell down there were expensive medical bills for the mechwarrior. It's just not cost effective.
Think of the FORD Pinto, how many do you see on the roads today? The car was unsafe and pulled off the road.
So if a battlemech was that dangerous to it's pilot then they would go the way of the cavalry sabre and muzzle loading rifles. Somebody would have invented a device to remotely pilot the machine from a safe distance (anyone ever heard of the Predator Drone?)

Making warriors this vulnerable simply wrecks the game.

There are upgrades that prevent injuries. Since the the enemies pilot gets to injury the same way, it increase my chance of having the whole mech for salvage. (destory CT = 1 part, destory both legs = 2 part, pilot kill = 3 part) So i think it is inteded, so we get better chance of salvaging. I never play tabletop before, but I doubt that you need to worry about salvage.

[dmcintos]

all the tanks and missle carriers are OP...

Mechs - why would I... I should sport some tanks and missle carriers.

[Bishop-Six]

I cant play my character, because he is always injured... :(