Why can't you shoot while airborne?!?!

[Arch]

Doesn't make sense, it's like mech battle 101, jump, shoot down on the head, land behind cover

[Arch]

Originally posted by Telfram:

Originally posted by Huggles `:

Doesn't make sense, it's like mech battle 101, jump, shoot down on the head, land behind cover

One word: lostech
According to the lore (as i understand) so much tech has been lost, some standards are lower than todays tech. i.e. the ability of small fire and forget missles, LRM's and SRM's at this time are unguided. The ability to componsate while in flight (shudders/wobble/rate of climb or descent) is beyond the ability of the targeting computers. A small fraction off a degree of at the firing point over a couple of hundred meters will cleanly miss, while the recoil of autocannons and missle launchs would bring the danger of toppling your gyro's.

That's the best answer I've gotten here.
I didn't know that about the battletech universe cuz it'd explain tons. For example why aren't targetting computers making sure every shot is 100% a hit unless countered by counter measures and counter electronics like today.
But I really don't feel it should be beyond a pilot's ability (and even common sense) to jump from behind cover, shoot, and land behind cover. Sure he'll hit less but he'll survive more.


Moreover, I think it also makes really good sense in gameplay terms, because by doing this you sacrifice the most important resource: time.
If you're 50% less accurate you'll need twice the turns to cause the same damage as you would have if you're not doing it, for which I think most missions will punish you. Also someone can run around to where you're hiding and get LOS of you with good hit chances after you've just semi-sacrificed a turn shooting at 50% accuracy.

This way it's really a tactical decision the player gets where he gains survivability in exchange for time and damage done. It's really a good fit for the game.

[nilus]

Originally posted by Huggles `:

This way it's really a tactical decision the player gets where he gains survivability in exchange for time and damage done. It's really a good fit for the game.

Except Battlemechs just don't move that way. Some are humanoid but they don't move like a human. These are giant walking super heavy tanks, they just don't dart around like that(even the light fast ones)

Like I said I think the high level piloting skill actaully lets you move after shooting, but for the vast majority of mechwarriors they can't do it.

[Arch]

Dart around? What are you talking about.

Fly straight up 10 meters, shoot, land back down.
It's a lot less 'darty' than all the jumpjet moves already in the game. Exactly like mechwarrior 2/3/4. Never played those?

[nilus]

Originally posted by Huggles `:

Dart around? What are you talking about.

Fly straight up 10 meters, shoot, land back down.
It's a lot less 'darty' than all the jumpjet moves already in the game. Exactly like mechwarrior 2/3/4. Never played those?

I have. They are fun. They are not exactly the table top game experience of Battletech though.

[The Pollie]

Because poptarting in MWO was cancer and I don't want it here, either.

[Muskrat]

Originally posted by Huggles `:

Dart around? What are you talking about.

Fly straight up 10 meters, shoot, land back down.
It's a lot less 'darty' than all the jumpjet moves already in the game. Exactly like mechwarrior 2/3/4. Never played those?

While MechWarrior is derived from Battletech, it ISN'T Battletech. They aren't 1:1 compatible, even though they share the same universe and setting, the rules are different for each.

Battletech (PC) is based off Battletech (Table Top) rules. In the TT game, firing while jumping isn't a thing, so it isn't here.

There's plenty of ways this is attempted to be justified in the lore, all of which have obvious holes - but let's be honest here: the entire premise of 100T battlemechs has obvious holes.

Realistically, this is a rule more based on metagame, than anything else. You claim X, or Y will balance it, but without extensive play testing, you can't say for sure. And as some point, it becomes burdensome to keep track of in the tabletop setting (which again, this game is based on).

[wendigo211]

Here are the tabletop rules from the 1994 Tactical Handbook:

Standard Battletech rules require a jumping 'Mech to land before it fires. However, the Level Three Jumping Fire rule allows a jumping 'Mech to fire while in the air. To do so, the player controlling the 'Mech must declare the unit's intention to fire during the Movement Phase.

The unit's fire is resolved druing the Weapon Attack Phase. Treat the attack as taking place from the 'Mech's take-off or landing hex-the unit's controlling player chooses which hex. For purposes of determining LOS, the jumping BattleMech is considered 3 levels above the underlying terrain. The controlling player may designate any hex facing for the unit. The attacking 'Mech uses a +3 To-Hit Modifier and all other normal to-hit modifiers as well. A jumping 'Mech can split its fire among several targets, but must fire all shots from the same hex location.

A jumping 'Mech that fires while in midair may in turn be targeted by enemy units. Any unit firing on the jumping 'Mech adds a -1 To-Hit Modifier as well as all standard to-hit modifiers. Resolve the fire based on the hex the jumping 'Mech's fire originates from. If the jumping Battlemech is destroyed in mid-jump, its momentum carried the wreck to land in the intended hex as normal.

So yeah, there was a tabletop rule for this and it was a bad idea. Note the jumping mech gets a massive +3 penalty to attack while anyone shooting at it gets a -1 bonus to attack.

While this video game is based on the Battletech rules, it doesn't follow them slavishly and it's largely based on the level 2 rules (and even then only covers about 1/2 of them).

The big factor in all of this is that Battletech rules for LOS, firing etc. are based on the position of a mech at the end of its turn. This determines who the mech can shoot at and who can shoot at the mech. Since a mech can't end its turn in midair, it's not allowed to fire from that position under standard rules.

In this game, technically Ace Pilot does let you choose to fire from your starting hex or your final hex, which does break from tabletop. But the whole initiative system is a massive break from tabletop and makes this a worse idea. Imagine mech sitting 18 hexes away hidden behind a mesa with 4 of the new AC-5s (AC-9s?) getting fed targeting information from a sensor lock. It uses it's jumpjets to pop from cover, fire and get back into cover. None of its opponents get a chance to fire back and it would take them multiple rounds to cover the distance to get LOS on the mech. It would bascially be a firing from safety rule, which the game should not allow (beyond the indirect fire rules, which are limited only to missiles and have their own rules that compensate for the bonus of firing from safety).

[Arch]

Don't think so. It's a lot more straightforward than tabletop, where it's level 3 rules because it's a ♥♥♥♥♥ hassle to manage, but a computer running it, no problem.

Even the tabletop rules allow mechs to fire at the flying mech so as to make it inadvisable in many circumstances.
Just allow a mech which hasn't fired yet and has LOS on the flyer to fire if it wants to do so (but at a penalty).
They can fire back and in that way get a 'free' shot at an open target, rushing your initiative turn which is also a good bonus.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Huggles `:

Don't think so. It's a lot more straightforward than tabletop, where it's level 3 rules because it's a ♥♥♥♥♥ hassle to manage, but a computer running it, no problem.

Even the tabletop rules allow mechs to fire at the flying mech so as to make it inadvisable in many circumstances.
Just allow a mech which hasn't fired yet and has LOS on the flyer to fire if it wants to do so (but at a penalty).


They can fire back and in that way get a 'free' shot at an open target, rushing your initiative turn which is also a good bonus.

Do you let them fire during the jumper's turn, in which case you'll have to code an interrupt turn for the other players, and determine how that affects their options during their own turn. Or do they get the option duiring their own turn, in which case how do you animate the that? What if the jumping mech delays it's action to the end of the round? Do mechs at the start of the next round get to fire at it? It's not as easy to implement or balance as you think.

[Arch]

Yup wendigo, gotta code an interrupt for it to be awesome.

It would actually look real epic because the interrupting player selects weapons (and if to shoot at all) and then possibly both mechs shoot at each other simultaneously, which is a lot more epic looking than all this... go go go... pew pew... go go go... pew pew.
Feck, it'd be the most epic part of all combat, visually speaking.

If the jumping mech delays his action to the end of the round then it allowed its targets to move, either to come to it and attack it or to move out of range, or into cover, and in any case it lost precious time, possibly giving up initiative if it's a lighter mech and paying for it with an accuracy penalty.

I think it's easy to balance because all the balance considerations are already part of the natural system and don't have to be coded in.
The only thing that takes work is the interrupt, and who knows how much work that takes, maybe it's a lot, maybe its near to nothing. Can't think of any turn based tactical combat games that are really good that don't have that mechanic anyway

[hammerinn]

Originally posted by The Pollie:

Because poptarting in MWO was cancer and I don't want it here, either.

We have a winner!
Besides that, if you and the ai can poptart, you will both just be hiding behind rocks hoping for a headshot.
Oh wait, let me guess, he only wants to do it himself. If the AI did it successfully an unbridled rage like the world has never seen would decend upon us.

[hammerinn]

Originally posted by Huggles `:

Yup wendigo, gotta code an interrupt for it to be awesome.

It would actually look real epic because the interrupting player selects weapons (and if to shoot at all) and then possibly both mechs shoot at each other simultaneously, which is a lot more epic looking than all this... go go go... pew pew... go go go... pew pew.
Feck, it'd be the most epic part of all combat, visually speaking.

If the jumping mech delays his action to the end of the round then it allowed its targets to move, either to come to it and attack it or to move out of range, or into cover, and in any case it lost precious time, possibly giving up initiative if it's a lighter mech and paying for it with an accuracy penalty.

I think it's easy to balance because all the balance considerations are already part of the natural system and don't have to be coded in.
The only thing that takes work is the interrupt, and who knows how much work that takes, maybe it's a lot, maybe its near to nothing. Can't think of any turn based tactical combat games that are really good that don't have that mechanic anyway

It wouldn't because it would be the only way combat is done, the Ai seeing that it is the most viable option.

[Arch]

Both of the last posts are incorrect as I have already explained.

If you get a penalty to hit AND you can be shot back at, then there is no advantage to doing it unless it is done tactically, as an ambush, making sure that you're not in the LOS of the mech you're jumping to shoot, and it costs time also.

[hammerinn]

Originally posted by Huggles `:

Both of the last posts are incorrect as I have already explained.

If you get a penalty to hit AND you can be shot back at, then there is no advantage to doing it unless it is done tactically, as an ambush, making sure that you're not in the LOS of the mech you're jumping to shoot, and it costs time also.

The posts are not wrong my point stands-adding it is for the purpose of gaining an advantage not currently in the game. Since you can't be fired on because landing breaks lock-on( you are behind a rock)and the mech you are shooting can't shoot you( as per your post), the only reason to have this is to give the player another advantage over the ai.
If the ai used it better than the player you bet noone would want it.

[Arch]

Hammerinn, I think you haven't read anything of the posts and you're not even quoting me correctly.
Multiple times it was written that the shot-at mech CAN shoot at the flying mech. It is even like this in the original tabletop rules.
Forget it, you don't understand.