Cossacks and Nagant Weapon Sway

[PhunkyJazzLord]

First, I'd like to thank the developers for creating such an awesome game. I really do enjoy it and appreciate all of the meticulous work they have done. However, I'd like to communicate, as respectfully as possible, the frustration caused to me by the topic of this discussion.

In my experience, gas attacking is a critical strategy for winning Maneuver matches. While a team can win without them, especially against bots and newbies, they are just not replaceable, especially on most maps with wide open spaces. The entente is stuck with the Cossack's squad for using gas attacks.

For me, playing as the Cossack's is completely frustrating because they are stuck with Nagant weapons, which are widely known to have atrocious weapon sway. The squad leader who calls in the gas attacks is notably without alternatives to Nagant weapons. Other entente squads are also stuck with some Nagant weapons, which drives me to completely avoid certain roles. A few die-hard players will probably counter this discussion with "just get used to it" and "I've gotten a ton of kills with them easy" objections. However, because of the substantial player shortage we suffer from, it is my opinion that frustrating and avoidable aspects of the game should be avoided at all costs. New and casual players are going to get slaughtered as is, and I'm sure that the entente's reliance on Nagant weapons has and does turn away many much-needed players.

Against newbies and bots, an experienced player can manage the Cossack squad quite well. I find it very enjoyable to charge headlong into gas clouds while slicing and dicing clueless defenders. Unfortunately, the gas and swords are the only redeeming quality that the Cossacks have. Experienced players generally have little trouble locating and killing sword attackers from a comfortable distance, even in thick gas clouds.

Because of weapon sway with Nagants, precious time is wasted waiting for a shot to line up beyond distances of 20 or 30 meters. In fact, at such close ranges, there is even less time than normal to get a shot off before an opponent does. Experienced players can easily outgun the Cossacks (and other Nagant users) at range. The only workaround for this is to get the jump on an opponent, aim correctly, and hit them on your first or second shot before someone else gets the jump on you. On paper, this sounds like a readily achievable and justifiable tactic/squad limitation. Against players with any significant experience, this just doesn't work as well as it sounds. It is probably true that one can "get used to" the weapon sway of Nagant weapons, but when offered a choice between a Nagant and a regular weapon, very few would honestly admit that they'd like the Nagant more. The stability and precision (which are very important when moving around and aiming quickly, as most skilled players do) of almost any other weapon is going to trump any Nagant advantages. The only exception I can think of is when the alternative is trash and one expects to engage the enemy only at very short ranges. As Tannenburg touts wide-open maps, good luck being stuck to the limitations of a Nagant weapon for the entire match.

Game balance aside, my primary frustration is the fact that all of this makes being the Cossacks, who are arguably indispensable because of their gas capabilities, simply no fun at all against experienced players. I always come up short of kills playing as the Cossack squad leader, or when compelled to use a Nagant weapon. Either because of an ignorance of strategy or because of dislike of their weapons, I've often seen my whole team avoiding them. When this is the case (and we're usually losing), it leaves me feeling obligated to be them in order to pick up the slack and call in much needed gas on the enemy (for the benefit of everyone else). The artificial weapon sway is not a good game balance aspect and is a serious frustration and fun-sapper. The entente, which a player may be compelled to play on, has seriously limited squad choices for me, which is even more frustrating given the limited weapon/squad choices already inherent to the game.

Yes, a few hard-core players may argue against some of the points I've made, and perhaps justifiably so. They are certainly entitled to their opinion. But it is my estimation that the great majority of players (including vast concourses of people who play this game a few times and leave forever) will agree that the Nagant weapon sway is not something they enjoy and is not a well-done game balance mechanic. While this is certainly not the only flaw with this game, I believe I am not alone in ardently hoping that this feature will soon be changed. I don't care whatever nerfing has to be done to the Cossacks or to the entente squads in order to justify this change. Almost anything would be preferable to basically being gun-crippled, especially given the nature of the game.

I have looked around on these forums and am shocked that the developers have not addressed this issue before, despite the numerous complaints expressed by other players (if i'm incorrect in this, please correct me). I cannot fathom that this feature is any sort of accidental bug, thus the persuasive nature of this post. I would love and appreciate this game SO much more if this "game breaking" balance mechanic was removed from the game entirely. I believe player retention and satisfaction would greatly improve if the developers would be kind enough to make this simple fix. At the very least, I hope that they comment on this issue so as to keep us out of the dark on this very important issue. Once again, the developers have my sincere appreciation for the great WW1 games they have created, this issue aside. Thank you for your efforts.

[Yuithgf]

yep, mosin-nagants especially have too much sway.

[B8B3B]

simple solution: remove the cossacks squad

also, by "nagant weapon", i assume you mean the three line (mosin) rifles, not the three line (nagant) revolver. the former is only inaccurately called "(mosin-)nagant" by modern gun collectors.

[Cwot]

Originally posted by Temujin:

simple solution: remove the cossacks squad

also, by "nagant weapon", i assume you mean the three line (mosin) rifles, not the three line (nagant) revolver. the former is only inaccurately called "(mosin-)nagant" by modern gun collectors.

The revolver is also horrible, takes an eternity to reload.

Regarding the rifles, I have gotten used to the sway, but I agree they are pretty bad compared to the Infanterie. Feels like easy mode when I play Infanterie officer compared to Cossack.

[PhunkyJazzLord]

I'd like to clarify a little after experimentation and further thought.

The pistol used by the Cossack squad leader is a Smith and Wesson, which has terrible sway for everyone. That is the pistol I meant, as opposed to the Nagant pistol, which doesn't sway badly for most squad positions.

I think that it is awesome that some historically crappy weapons are available as options to use in game. I think it's cool to see examples showing that most nations faced issues with weapons that were poorly-performing, poorly designed, or poorly suitable for the nature of the war. Some of the guns that are a clear disadvantage in the game are still viable to use, even if you'll probably miss out on kills, and I think that that's also a good thing. However, I think that for the sake of game balance and a good experience, decent options should still be available to every squad position.

My main complaints are regarding the Nagant rifles, and to a lesser extent other weapons which sway substantially. They are not fun to use in game and there isn't sufficient historical reason (this has been discussed in another thread) or any clear game-balance reason that I think justifies it, which is frustrating. I'm also frustrated that the Cossack squad as a whole has terrible gun sway. They are effectively gun-emasculated in a wide-open-map game. I might not mind it as much if the Cossack squad wasn't required for using gas attacks, which are strategically essential in my experience.

In short, I like having options that are crappy for the sake of immersion, but am frustrated when I'm not given a choice that is still competitively feasible. I also dislike seeing weapons sway-nerfed for no good or justifiable reason. That said, I could be persuaded into believing that having some weapons and squad positions sway plus-or-minus a little bit would contribute positively to the game experience. I think that, for example, having a marksman have steadier aim, or a really heavy pistol having SOME sway makes perfect sense.

[BTR75]

I usually play Russians for Entente, so I may be speaking from ignorance a bit on the Cossacks... but I have gotten them up to Level 20.
1) I find the S&W to be an ok pistol, it often "one shots" people, and has a better reload than the Nagant Revolver.
1) I have gotten used to sway on the Mosins. Holding your breath often mitigates it quite a bit. On the rare occasions I play the Rifleman instead of the NCO, I can make hits really far out.
3) I did kind of wonder if the Cossacks were a tad faster than the other nationalities, and I am not even talking about the Cossack Charge ability. It may be just me.

[Cwot]

Originally posted by BTR75:

I usually play Russians for Entente, so I may be speaking from ignorance a bit on the Cossacks... but I have gotten them up to Level 20.
1) I find the S&W to be an ok pistol, it often "one shots" people, and has a better reload than the Nagant Revolver.
1) I have gotten used to sway on the Mosins. Holding your breath often mitigates it quite a bit. On the rare occasions I play the Rifleman instead of the NCO, I can make hits really far out.
3) I did kind of wonder if the Cossacks were a tad faster than the other nationalities, and I am not even talking about the Cossack Charge ability. It may be just me.

Rifleman has access to the Arisaka type-38 which is pretty good compared to the nagant rifles. I think the Cossacks and Infanterie have a bit more stamina compared to the other squad types.

[Yuithgf]

Originally posted by Cwot:

Rifleman has access to the Arisaka type-38 which is pretty good compared to the nagant rifles. I think the Cossacks and Infanterie have a bit more stamina compared to the other squad types.

cossaks and infanterie have more sprint time when in aura. while the arisaka is good, its in one single loadout, if you compare em as a whole the infanterie squad is better equipped than their russian counterpart

[LV|Ironstorm767]

Originally posted by (maybe DRE) Yuithgf:

Originally posted by Cwot:

Rifleman has access to the Arisaka type-38 which is pretty good compared to the nagant rifles. I think the Cossacks and Infanterie have a bit more stamina compared to the other squad types.

cossaks and infanterie have more sprint time when in aura. while the arisaka is good, its in one single loadout, if you compare em as a whole the infanterie squad is better equipped than their russian counterpart

The Assault Squads have more stamina right off the bat. (IIRC, +150% stamina)

They get faster stamina regen in one of the auras. (Either NCO or Command Order) Need to check the Assault Leader ability again, to be sure.

[BanjoHappySailor]

This is for balance. Theyre really strong While using their gas and sabres. Removing sway would make them op and the best squad to attack and defend points. Now they're Just Best at attacking. I love this squad :)

[Yuithgf]

Originally posted by Michciio:

This is for balance. Theyre really strong While using their gas and sabres. Removing sway would make them op and the best squad to attack and defend points. Now they're Just Best at attacking. I love this squad :)

infanterie has better rifles and pistols. just make the chlorine cooldown 60 seconds and fix the mosin sway, this affects frontos too (and latvians even if less)

[LV|Ironstorm767]

Originally posted by Michciio:

This is for balance. Theyre really strong While using their gas and sabres. Removing sway would make them op and the best squad to attack and defend points. Now they're Just Best at attacking. I love this squad :)

I wouldn't remove/nerf the sway a lot, but toning it down for the rifles (and carbine) would be nice IMO.

e.g.
1. The 1907 Carbine could be similar to the M1890 Carbine (Bulgarians have the second worst sway for a carbine IIRC);
2. The Mosin Rifle could be similar to the G98 or G88/05;
3. And the Dragoon/Cossack Rifle could be similar to the M1893 Rifle.

Note: Basing this off each of their total lengths; maybe that's not the best way to balance the amount of sway.

[BanjoHappySailor]

But the cossacks have gas grenades and officer has really strong 1shoot kill revolver. You Just drop the gas on flag and start swinging. It works really well against Players and Bots. In my opinion infanterie has much worse equipment and doesnt have Such attack potential without gas grenades.

[Yuithgf]

infanterie have smoke grenades as a counterpart. and im okay with the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ revolver, but nagant rifles and carabines are the most common firearms for russian squads, its not like theyre in a couple loadout

[SomethingSalty]

The Entente in general seem to suffer from lower quality weapons, the sway on the Mosin-Nagant rifle is annoying, but by god, the Winchester 1915 has to be some kind of newb trap, it looks all cool and has an iconic lever-action design, but probably the worst sway in the game and no notable upsides besides aesthetic, and only the Entente have them!

Meanwhile, the Central powers get the Mannlicher M1895, a straight-pull with good sights, barely any sway, insane reload speed (especially when around officers,) and, afaik, it's available to everyone except the Germans in some form. The Germans get the K98AZ, which inherits being a kick-ass rifle in Verdun.

As for sidearms... the Entente are mostly stuck with loading gate revolvers and sometimes the Colt, whilst the Central powers do have loading gate revolvers, they also get the Luger and the Broomhandle, some of the best sidearms you could have at the time. But sidearms matter less in Tannenberg, as the confined trench-raiding style of gameplay, where you were forced to fight in cramped spaces (where double-action high-capacity firearms excelled) in Verdun, you're now constantly on the move in wide open spaces, and sidearms suffer greatly on maps that don't feature trenches in some form.

The one GREAT rifle the Entente get, is the Arisaka line, the 30 and 38 are both awesome rifles with good sights, manual reloading/stripper clip, fast firing rate (for a bolt-action,) and best of all, very little weapon sway... there's only one downside, the Arisaka only seems to be available to riflemen, and other roles have to stick to less desirable guns.

If there's a dev/mod who could correct me, that'd be awesome, but right now, I'm of the opinion that the Central powers have a distinct advantage over the Entente in firearms that costs the Entente many victories.

[BTR75]

I'd like to know the ratio of wins/losses of Entente vs Central Powers. It seems pretty even to me, with the biggest factor being the skill level of the players.