Artificer Flamethrower Discussion: Make it resource based instead of cooldown based?

[D. Fancybelle]

I like the Artificer, but Flamethrower, as many already mentioned before me, forces you to slow down too much while in close range to get the full duration going without getting killed. Ion Surge has so far helped me a lot in my runs with mobility, but I often run out of things to do damage with, and after a few Goat Hoves you just end up teleporting back to the ground constantly (why does it scale so much with speed items, lol).

So what if it wasn't a "once per cooldown" ability and instead a "can use constantly, but uses up a resource that needs time to recharge"?

Using it for the full duration would still be risky and dangerous, but at least now you can cancel it and reactivate it more frequently, allowing the player to "dodge" and continue using the ability without waiting for the full cooldown. This would also make it easier to "weave" it into the existing cooldowns of all the other abilities, at least in my opinion (eg. M1 -> Flame -> M1 -> Flame, etc.).

What do you think?

I don't think a simple range increase fixes the fundamental issue that at least I have with the ability: Slow movement, too risky to use the full duration, cooldown feels like a punishment because you often need to quickly run away again

Bonus points if an increase in attack speed help it burst quicker, that would be really nice in my opinion.

[Vahnkiljoy]

Oh hell no.

[10K]

sounds very unnecesary tbh, if using flamethrower puts you in a bad situation then you are probably using it wrong

[D. Fancybelle]

Huntr の投稿を引用：

sounds very unnecesary tbh, if using flamethrower puts you in a bad situation then you are probably using it wrong

Considering it puts you in a spot where everything can hit you, when is the right situation to use it? And why use it over Ion Surge's amazing mobility?

Vahnkiljoy の投稿を引用：

Oh hell no.

Why not? It's an underused ability and this would only effectively reduce the "cooldown". It's a straight buff on a character that currently struggles with scaling, would this be a harmful change?

[Zeddy]

Flamethrower gives Artificer something she's otherwise lacking, which is the ability to trigger on-hit effects rapidly. The safest time to use it is when you're kiting a whole lot of mobs and have a couple of stun grenades, or using Snapfreeze to disable enemies under your own power. Even malachite elder lemurians can be stunned.

[Conga Lyne]

-1, flamethrower is already really strong as is, imo ion surge should be the one getting buffed

The flamethrower is a bit of risk vs reward, you need to put yourself in to a good position to gain a massive surge of dps, and even then it's pretty easy to dodge stuff with it; at least for me it is

I think the only reason flamethrower is "underused" is the same reason 90% of multiplayer lobbies are command/sacrifice/swarm, it's easier to lean in to the "I didn't die in the first 5 minutes option" rather than figuring out what they're doing wrong and improve, adapt then grow from there

[Thug Killadome]

Conga の投稿を引用：

-1, flamethrower is already really strong as is, imo ion surge should be the one getting buffed

The flamethrower is a bit of risk vs reward, you need to put yourself in to a good position to gain a massive surge of dps, and even then it's pretty easy to dodge stuff with it; at least for me it is

I think the only reason flamethrower is "underused" is the same reason 90% of multiplayer lobbies are command/sacrifice/swarm, it's easier to lean in to the "I didn't die in the first 5 minutes option" rather than figuring out what they're doing wrong and improve, adapt then grow from there

Flamethrower sucks past the 4th stage.
Didn't get a bunch of hooves? Didn't get a ton of procs? Didn't get a double jump? Flamethrower is now worthless.
The only thing you're doing wrong with using flamethrower is using it in the first place. It's garbage against flyers and its garbage against mobs that can outpace your walking speed, its garbage against basically anything that isn't a boss and even then you need to get suicidally close to use it. That "massive surge of dps" stops becoming a reward and more like a requirement due to the way everything scales. Its a core part of her movement rotation she can't even use because its effective range is about as far as you could spit.

Its fine if you're used to playing with trash, but don't pretend like its not trash.

[Conga Lyne]

Oreos and Water の投稿を引用：

-snip-

all I can say is

practice more with it and git gud

[TH3G4M3GRL]

Conga の投稿を引用：

Oreos and Water の投稿を引用：

-snip-

all I can say is

practice more with it and git gud

"Lmao git gud, gonna ignore your argument".

I think flamethrower is fine, myself, but this is how you just sound like an elitist prick at best and an idiot at worst.

[Conga Lyne]

Latif Ja'mla の投稿を引用：

Conga の投稿を引用：

all I can say is

practice more with it and git gud

"Lmao git gud, gonna ignore your argument".

I think flamethrower is fine, myself, but this is how you just sound like an elitist prick at best and an idiot at worst.

If you would rather go on a long winded wall of text in my place which just results in the same message being said, then be my guest~

I never said "lmao" or "gonna ignore your argument", you're inserting those words falsely

I acknowledge what he said but still stand by what I said

[Thug Killadome]

Conga の投稿を引用：

Oreos and Water の投稿を引用：

-snip-

all I can say is

practice more with it and git gud

Pretty predictable response for a tool with an anime avatar and a private profile who's only contribution to the suggestions forums is being a status quo warrior with absolutely no reasoning for any of your statements.

Artificer was the character I got my first Monsoon clear, first mastery skin when they were introduced, and first Mithrix clear. Just because I can recognize her glaring weakness as a character and want to see her brought up to speed with the rest of the cast doesn't mean I can't play as her.
None of this matters because the devs clearly prefer taking advice from people like you who act like the developers can never make a mistake, pretend to know everything about the game but make almost no effort to back up their statements other than "works fine for me!" , and will blame literally any issue on user error. Folks like you are the reason base Commando still doesn't have i-frames on his roll.

[10K]

Oreos and Water の投稿を引用：

Conga の投稿を引用：

-1, flamethrower is already really strong as is, imo ion surge should be the one getting buffed

The flamethrower is a bit of risk vs reward, you need to put yourself in to a good position to gain a massive surge of dps, and even then it's pretty easy to dodge stuff with it; at least for me it is

I think the only reason flamethrower is "underused" is the same reason 90% of multiplayer lobbies are command/sacrifice/swarm, it's easier to lean in to the "I didn't die in the first 5 minutes option" rather than figuring out what they're doing wrong and improve, adapt then grow from there

Flamethrower sucks past the 4th stage.
Didn't get a bunch of hooves? Didn't get a ton of procs? Didn't get a double jump? Flamethrower is now worthless.
The only thing you're doing wrong with using flamethrower is using it in the first place. It's garbage against flyers and its garbage against mobs that can outpace your walking speed, its garbage against basically anything that isn't a boss and even then you need to get suicidally close to use it. That "massive surge of dps" stops becoming a reward and more like a requirement due to the way everything scales. Its a core part of her movement rotation she can't even use because its effective range is about as far as you could spit.

Its fine if you're used to playing with trash, but don't pretend like its not trash.

if you get procs flamethrower grows crazy in damage, it's damage is enough to melt flyers and I've no clue what you mean with mobs outpacing your walking speed. literally just move while firing or place an ice wall before firing it and nothing will kill you.
Better yet, just get good

[Zeddy]

Oreos and Water の投稿を引用：

Didn't get a bunch of hooves? Didn't get a ton of procs? Didn't get a double jump? Flamethrower is now worthless.

Flip that around though. What if all you got of offensive items were tri-tips and stun grenades? If you didn't bring flamethrower you almost can't benefit from these items at all.

Ion Surge is great but doesn't actually offer you anything unique. You can easily achieve flight with strides, egg, milky chrysalis, feathers, headstompers, wax quail, and just using the terrain smartly.

In the meta sense, flamethrower is the way you play it safely.

[sleepyBee]

Oreos and Water の投稿を引用：

Conga の投稿を引用：

-1, flamethrower is already really strong as is, imo ion surge should be the one getting buffed

The flamethrower is a bit of risk vs reward, you need to put yourself in to a good position to gain a massive surge of dps, and even then it's pretty easy to dodge stuff with it; at least for me it is

I think the only reason flamethrower is "underused" is the same reason 90% of multiplayer lobbies are command/sacrifice/swarm, it's easier to lean in to the "I didn't die in the first 5 minutes option" rather than figuring out what they're doing wrong and improve, adapt then grow from there

Flamethrower sucks past the 4th stage.
Didn't get a bunch of hooves? Didn't get a ton of procs? Didn't get a double jump? Flamethrower is now worthless.
The only thing you're doing wrong with using flamethrower is using it in the first place. It's garbage against flyers and its garbage against mobs that can outpace your walking speed, its garbage against basically anything that isn't a boss and even then you need to get suicidally close to use it. That "massive surge of dps" stops becoming a reward and more like a requirement due to the way everything scales. Its a core part of her movement rotation she can't even use because its effective range is about as far as you could spit.

Its fine if you're used to playing with trash, but don't pretend like its not trash.

If you have problems using a flamethrower after stage 4, or dodging enemies, this is clearly not a character or ability problem, you just can't do it for some reason.

Some say the flamethrower is of little use after stage 4.
Well...I disagree with this, but even if we accept that it is ...
If I get a few move items, such as a hoopo feather, hooves, etc. Ion is already becoming useless for me, and this can happen even at level 1-2, that is, it becomes a dead weight much earlier than the flamethrower.
At the same time, endless flight and cheese boss fights do not make much sense to me, because it is much faster (and easier) to just win them normally. Mitrix literally almost can not hit you if you stand on the bridge, you can even practically not move - why would I even fly somewhere in the clouds?

Strange logic about "did not get items for damage"...
If you don't get any items for damage, the run will suck regardless of the character or abilities (well, the loader or acrid will last longer), and I can live the first loop without items for movement at all. But without damage it will be ten times more difficult.

The flamethrower is good because it allows you to effectively use absolutely any damage items, such as bleeding from a dagger, a legendary hammer, etc. Whereas for bomb and bolts it is almost useless and you need much more specific items.
That is, roughly speaking, with a flamethrower, any damage items make you stronger - which makes the run much more consistent. Whereas without it, you are at the mercy of the RNG to get the bands and other critical items.
The arti has a stun from a nanobomb, frost from a spear and a wall, and even 1-2 stun grenades with a flamethrower can stunlock enemies. I don't see any problem using it.
I'm not against a buff tho, for example, so that the flamethrower scales with attackspeed. But this ability is still working well.

I have already gone through eclipse 8 and I only used a flamethrower. So again, I don't see much of a problem.

Everyone uses what is more convenient for them. And the ion has its advantages, but after so many hours as Arti, the flamethrower is much more useful to me.

Oreos and Water の投稿を引用：

Conga の投稿を引用：

all I can say is

practice more with it and git gud

Pretty predictable response for a tool with an anime avatar and a private profile who's only contribution to the suggestions forums is being a status quo warrior with absolutely no reasoning for any of your statements.

Artificer was the character I got my first Monsoon clear, first mastery skin when they were introduced, and first Mithrix clear. Just because I can recognize her glaring weakness as a character and want to see her brought up to speed with the rest of the cast doesn't mean I can't play as her.
None of this matters because the devs clearly prefer taking advice from people like you who act like the developers can never make a mistake, pretend to know everything about the game but make almost no effort to back up their statements other than "works fine for me!" , and will blame literally any issue on user error. Folks like you are the reason base Commando still doesn't have i-frames on his roll.

Well, yes, your opinion is 100% correct and developers should listen exactly to it.
But they should not listen to others. Because their opinion is not correct.
Good position.

Well, you're the guy here who blames people for their avatars. Others do describe how and why one ability maybe is better than another. If you are that angry with "git gud" then this is really what you need to do.


P.S. What a big wall of text. I guess I just love to play as Arti

[D. Fancybelle]

sleepyBee の投稿を引用：

The flamethrower is good because it allows you to effectively use absolutely any damage items, such as bleeding from a dagger, a legendary hammer, etc. Whereas for bomb and bolts it is almost useless and you need much more specific items.

But what if you are in muliplayer then items like daggers might go to your captain first, for example. As far as I understood, Artificer profits more from items that increase single hit damage, like Crowbars and Bands, and the Flamer is kinda the odd one out.

When playing alone, sure, you can make use of more items more often, but in multiplayer, especially when playing with friends, sharing happens more often to increase character strengths rather than to slightly reduce weaknesses, and scrappers become more common too. You don't need multiple feathers, hooves nor a specific equipment etc. if you can have Ion Surge and blow through stages quicker with more damage items, decreasing difficulty scaling too. In contrast, if you have Flamer you definitely need those items much more while also limited to its close range.

With my suggestion in the OP I just wanted to increase the Flamethrower's overall "usage", making it a bit more flexible to weave into the current skills and gameplay by being able to toggle it on and off instead of keeping it as a "either use or never use" ability.

[Thug Killadome]

Stop telling me how Flamethrower is good. I know exactly what niche it's meant to fill. I know its does more damage than Ion. The issue with Flamethrower is it's particular niche stops being a thing you can even do later in your runs. The problem with it is that it slows you to a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crawl to use and makes you get way too close to enemies. Some of the most dangerous mobs in the game are fliers, and the swarms of brass contraptions can't be dodged with the speed Flamethrower reduces you to in the range you're forced to use it. Other ranged characters simply have to back up to aim at their target, arti has to crane all the way up in the sky to hit them.
You're completely missing the point, Flamethrower's issue is that its range is so pathetically short that its a gigantic risk to use later on if you don't want your damage to fall off. Its the same reason melee acrid is suicidal to use the longer you go. Its useful up until the range you're forced to use it is no longer safe to be in.
The amount of mods dedicated to fixing her Flamethrower on top of her other major flaws should be sufficient proof that its not just a "me" problem.

https://thunderstore.io/package/Navarth/HonpoRebalance/
https://thunderstore.io/package/pikuPixel/ArtifasterTweakMod/
https://thunderstore.io/package/helter/Artificer2/
https://thunderstore.io/package/smashbot/BetterArtificer/
https://thunderstore.io/package/TheTimesweeper/FastArtificerBolts/
https://thunderstore.io/package/Legendsmith/SolidIceWall/