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Some people might not use lunar coins at all but collect them instead.
That's your problem not mine nor the developer's.
Because this is an EARLY ACCESS game.
Did you really come into this thread thinking I was suggesting something based on the current state of the game? Thinking it's always gonna be like this? Things can always change. There can always be more and more uses for lunar coins.
You know I even said that ending the run gives way too many lunar coins but I guess you missed that. This is more or less a way to balance things out.
But thanks for not even giving it a chance or thinking about other players.
Altar1: 5x White / 3x Green = 1 Lunar Coin
Altar2: 2x Red = 2 Lunar Coins
Why would you have them "gifted" in the shop if they were a rarity to find in the game?
If you are short there is already the choice to sacrifice for 5 coins.
Keep em luna!
Green items seems okay though just in case I think it should be 5 green items instead of 3.
2 red items for two coins seems rough. You're already out one lunar coin when you enter bazaar. Minus all the lunar coins you spend on items. You typically don't find a lot of red items either.
My original idea was to be able to trade equipment items since you can always only trade one of them (or two if you play mul-t) so you can't farm lunar coins super hard. You always sacrifice one lunar coin to get there. So if you get two lunar coins back you gain one lunar coin.
Now that I think about it it's better if it sold for just one lunar coin. Essentially you cover the cost of getting to the bazaar. There's currently just too many near useless equipment items that it is way too much. Whenever you receive an equipment item that you don't need you could simply go to bazaar to gain one lunar coin. That would be kinda stupid.
So in conclusion
5 green items = 1 lunar coin
1 red item = 2 lunar coin
1 equipment item = 1 lunar coin
This is all assuming that they nerf the amount of lunar coins you get for ending the game (1x drizzle 2x rainstorm 3x monsoon) and assuming that they make more uses for lunar coins and buff certain lunar items to be more valuable.
So... getting five lunar coins for doing almost 2 loops is too much, but having the guaranteed opportunity to get 2 lunar coins by stage 4, before you even finish a loop, isn't?
And that's not counting the equipment you likely already have and the 5-10 or so green items you'd have likely amassed. (even if you didn't have enough greens, you can trade 3 whites for a green. You could definitely make it.)
That's 4 coins, regardless of difficulty, for getting to stage four and opening a portal. AKA: higher than what you say people should get for doing almost 2 loops on monsoon. 4 times higher than what you say 2 loops on drizzle should earn you. Those numbers need some major fiddling.
Aside from the numbers being way off, it could cause some pretty serious issues in multiplayer with loot hoarders, and remove a lot of the "hey I don't need this- do you?" dynamic that happens in more organized groups.
For example... as the Arty I wouldn't want N'Kuhana's Opinion. But as an engineer with 12 fungus, I sure as heck would. With your suggestion, Arty may want N'Kuhana's Opinion to get lunar coins and take it anyways.
Similiarly, it could open up a lot of abusive farming possibilities too. Stack all greens and reds on one character, have that character pop the portal and rake in the ez money within one loop.
You also completely ignored all my other points in this thread.
1. They can add more uses for lunar coins thus increasing the importance of farming lunar coins via various methods.
2. They could make certain lunar items better meaning players are more likely to spend lunar coins.
Besides this you're still losing your red item which could be valuable and you're still losing an equipment item. Keep in mind too I never suggested trading green items. That was the other guy's suggestion. I wasn't even that sure about trading 5 green items..I just gave a better number than the other dude.
Your example of multiplayer selfishness is not at all important here. Your team are either a--holes and steal sh*t, or they work together to help their team. There is nothing stopping players from being a--holes and stealing everything, currently. Literally the only difference with my suggestion in place would be that they sometimes take these red items and equipment items into bazaar to trade for lunar coins. That's not a big deal here. They probably would want a couple to get a good lunar item. I mean I IMAGINE they're there to have fun, right? You might not get the red item you're looking for but maybe they get a good lunar item, I don't ♥♥♥♥♥♥ know. Basically, a--holes will be a--holes. (PS ♥♥♥♥ this retarded steam censor)
Like let's be real, lunar coins shouldn't be some super important item which would determine whether a match is fun or sh*t. Farming lunar coins and getting lunar items in return should be fun. I do not see this change making a difference in multiplayer. Maybe instead of limiting the potential for cool mechanics, devs fix the root of "loothoarders" problem.
As far as the amount of lunar coins you get from the end, it's just a safety nerf more than anything. I don't think 5 lunar coins at the moment makes sense BUT if they added more things to do with lunar coins etc as I said, then maybe 5 lunar coins is fine. Also I still do think that higher difficulty should reward more lunar coins. Maybe 3/4/5 then.
Second: I don't see how this counters anything I've said.
1 red item = 2-3 coins (You are guaranteed one legendary chest at stage 4.)
1 equipment item = 1-2 coins (You're going to find an orange capsule by stage 4 unless RNG is just being really cruel)
10 green items at a rate of 5 for 1 = 2 coins (you're guaranteed to get 4 green items as boss rewards. if you get 2-3 green items from chests and 9-12 white items (white items can be exchanged for green in the bazaar), you'll easily hit 10 green items to exchange.)
costs 1 coin to go to the bazaar and exchange, assuming you don't get lucky.
doing a run to stage 4 would earn you between 4-6 coins, with your suggestions.
This is a heck of a lot for someone who said
Of course, you also said...
However, you did say this trading would be done in the bazaar. And guess what's in the lunar bazaar? A way to turn 5 green items into one red item! So, let's adjust our math.
1 red item = 2-3 coins (You are guaranteed one legendary chest at stage 4.)
1 equipment item = 1-2 coins
converting 10 green items into 2 red items = 4-6 coins as opposed to 2 coins.
costs 1 coin to go to the bazaar and exchange, assuming you don't get lucky.
doing a run to stage 4 would earn you between 6-10 coins.
The only thing your counter argument did was make the number bigger. I don't understand. For emphasis, once again, you said...
So instead of getting 5 lunar coins for doing 1 and 3/4ths of a loop, you think players should be able to get 6-10 coins in 1 loop.
Because getting 5 coins for doing 1 and 3/4ths of a loop is far too much, but getting 6-10 coins in 1 loop is just right. Getting up to double of what you'd get for a seppuku in half the time adds WAY too many lunar coins.
There isn't exactly a clear way to balance this either. You might think "well okay, I'll just make red items give less coins and require you trade more in!" Well now you've extended the length of the run drastically, and it's useless to anyone who prefers to stick to runs under an hour.
Edit: There's also always going to be an astronomical difference between players who intend to abuse this system and players who honestly just didn't find much use for a red item and plan to ditch it and only it, thus making it even harder to balance.
I was just pointing out that it was kinda silly to ask for a system which would allow you to earn 6-10 coins in 1 loop regardless of the difficulty while also saying you should earn far fewer than 5 lunar coins in 1 and 3/4ths of a loop.
I didn't really have much to say about the rest of the thread, but I guess I can.
This is a rogue-like. You can break away from the formula a smidge, but generally each run should start fresh. The only reason you get farther is because you get better/luckier. It shouldn't be because you stocked up on 20 lunar coins and became god with all the items/services you bought. Lunar coins shouldn't become more important. They should stay as is- wacky fun items that give immense power for immense drawback.
They could make certain more lunar items better that are not better or worse, but appeal to more players meaning players are more likely to spend lunar coins.
For starters, players can sell all of their items then go get killed when they step out of the bazaar to end the game early. In fact, they may very well want to! It's more certain than trying to get to the celestial portal, AND it's more rewarding with the current numbers you dropped.
Secondarily, players can play until they're satisfied with their run, whereupon they'll have more red items, more green items to turn into red items, and will be able to turn in said items to the lunar bazaar to make far more bank than you think they should be allowed to make and then just seppuku on their own.
Just because I'm inclined to give the engineer a N'Kuhana's Opinion when there's nothing in it for me does not mean I'll still be inclined to do so when lunar coins are involved. Especially if the devs do as you say and make lunar coins more important.
There is a lot of inbetween with how nice players are, and personal gain will incentivize us towards keeping whatever red items we find. That's losing out on the little team dynamic that can happen in the game.
No, the difference is that players will be able to gain astronomically larger amounts of lunar coins in a much shorter amount of time than previously. As I said with your numbers, 6-10 coins by the end of loop '0' as opposed to 1 coin by the end of the third stage in loop 1. Furthermore, players who might have once been willing to share red items which didn't benefit them much will now have reason to take the red items anyways- and hence will no longer be willing to share.
There's a lot of issues revolving around that. You can't limit how much loot one player can get directly because that can ruin team composition and strategies. Changing gold mechanics is also iffy. Forcing players to have one big shared inventory- once again iffy. These are all things which have been discussed before. If it was so easy to solve it they already would have.
If you think it's easy to solve make a suggestion post about it. I'll cross my fingers that it's a good solve. I hate jerky players who hoard loot (unless we discussed it as a plan) too.
Adding more things to do with lunar coins doesn't necessarily mean you'd use more lunar coins. The items have massive drawbacks, and a lot of players probably wouldn't want to stack them. For example...
Transcendence gives huge bursts of HP regen out of combat for the trade-off of not being able to heal in combat at all. I like that item for certain characters. Similiarly, I like shaped glass. Turn myself into more of a glass cannon to nuke people? Heck yeah! Does that mean I'd make myself a glass cannon who can't regenerate HP in combat? No. Never. Both items existing does not make me want to use more lunar coins in one run.
I agree to some degree that higher difficulties should reward me with more coins. Not much- just a bit. 3/4/5 sounds fair... as long as we don't implement the idea that would allow you to get 6-10 coins irregardless of difficulty in half the time.
TLDR; the idea for getting lunar coins from items will introduce many issues.
For starters, it is difficult to balance. Players either get insane amounts of coins or are required to do much longer runs to get the coins- which a large portion of the player base doesn't do.
Secondly, the idea that it's okay to pump up how many lunar coins we get is a bad one, since lunar coins shouldn't be important. Each run should be a fresh start, and how far the players go should be based on their luck and skill- not how hard they farmed lunar coins before the game started. Yes, the developers will add more lunar items. The items won't be better- they'll be different and still have powerful drawbacks. This won't necessarily make us buy multiple items as much as it will tempt more players to buy any lunar item in the first place.
Thirdly, it will incentivize players to hold on to any loot they find as opposed to giving certain characters priority for certain items. There's already many players (like me!) who wouldn't think twice about snatching a lunar coin they saw, but might ping a red item that they didn't want in the first place. Turning items into a way to gain lunar coins will definitely incentivize more people to be stingy with their drops; especially if lunar coins are made more important.
Edit: The game also isn't necessarily going to loop nonstop at the final phase in development. RoR had a final boss which you could choose to fight or do a loop again at a harder difficulty for more loot. In it's early access phase it had a few stages that you could repeat on loop. Sound familiar? This game will likely have a final boss as well, and won't last for hours upon hours.
Please, do not make runs able to actively farm for lunar coins. Getting a few lunar coins for ending a run early is plenty enough.
2- I would like to be able to BUY items for coins priced as follow in the shop:
2x random whites = 1 coin
1 random green = 2 coins
1 random red = 5-6 coins
Prices to be adjusted if needed.
3- Change the color of the sacrificial portal to something else (purple maybe?) so we know which one is the shop and which one is the obelisk when 2 portals show up.
Pls no.
There are chat notifications that'll tell the two apart (I use em so I've never had an issue), but I can see how it'd be tricky if you didn't notice them or forgot what the chat said.
Purple-y would probably be a good move.
For the sacrifice add all the items that all players carry to prevent hording items for coins.
The core issue is really summed up as no one should be able to gather up 2k coins and turn themselves into a god.
That'd suck for multiplayer. Some jerk-wad bought a bunch of white items and is now Hermes the messenger god, flying around at the speed of sound on stage 2 and snowballing all the chests while I have nothing.
That'd suck for when there's a final boss in the game and achievements tailored to beating the game on hard difficulties. Beat it without splurging lunar coins and struggled your way through it? Cool, I guess. But it's a really easy achievement if you just spend a bunch of coins!
That'd suck for speed-runners and long-run players. Got super far based on your skill and luck? Well check out this guy who used 2k lunar coins on items on stage 2!
It'd always offer an out of "Oh, you can't keep up with this group/achievement/difficulty/person? Just splurge some lunar coins!"
It's like the green boxes that show up after you die 7 times in Mario where you press it and automatically win. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that has a place in a rogue-like.
In multiplayer more items drop. A player who did 2 loops on solo shouldn't be awarded less than a group who did 2 loops together. Sure, you could fix it and make some equation...
But it'd be more complex. And we've only got, like, 3 devs.
So you *could* make a complex equation to decide how much each item is worth and how many ways to split it amongst the players to make sure it's arouuund equal regardless of how many players you have...
or you could just have set amounts of lunar coins depending on the loop you ended on.
A lot simpler for players to understand, a lot fairer, and waaay easier to create.
Aside from that, what about speed runners/challenge runners who skip items to stay ahead of the difficulty spike/make things more interesting? Should they be rewarded less for their run? They achieved the same, if not harder, thing.
Then there's also the fact that certain red items are actively bad for some players. Should I be punished because I don't want to pick up snowflakes as a Merc and accidentally blow myself up? Vultures as a mushy Engineer because I don't want shields with all the healing?
No! Of course not! But basing the reward around items would do just that.
Side note if both these changes you're suggesting were implemented at once:
-Buys Red items at the start
-Run is easy because I have Red items
-Sepuku at the statue
-Get paid back for the Red items I bought at the start.
You're right about the loop vs items. Each difficulty should give their own amount of coins per loop and have their own cap as well.
ex:
Easy - 2 coins per loop with a cap of 6
Medium - 4 coins per loop with a cap of 12
Hard - 6 coins per loop with a cap of 18
- numbers to be tweaked obviously -