Am I the only one who thinks that Strides of Heresy needs to be reworked/Nerfed?

[Hash3737]

Note that I do not think lunar items are bad, quite the opposite, I like em. It's fun to think "should I pick this item? It may ruin my run but it can also save it." The problem I have with lunar items that turn you into a Heretic is that some of them have *no actual downside*, specifically, Strides of Heresy (this applies to other items in some extent)
The skill replaces your utility skill into Shadowfade, which turns you into a black hole which removes your hit box while healing you. Stacking the item increases the healing received and the duration. This, in my opinion, does not sound like a lunar item. Lunar items MUST have some sort of downside so it wouldn't not a "braindead item" (an item which you can pick without having much thought) and you will have to think about picking it. This doesn't apply to Strides of Heresy.

Shadowfade is a skill which is better than at least 60% of survivor Utility skills (Loader, Mercenary and Captain are an exception in a way that they lose a significant amount of damage if picking Shadowfade, however, it may not make much difference if they already have a way of dealing enough damage with a primary). Artificer doesn't lose much, she gains mobility and healing. Only losing ability to freeze enemies (which she can do with a Nano-Spear already lel).
Commando doesn't lose anything at all, only gaining extra healing.
Rex is the same as Commando.
Huntress doesn't lose much mobility. The quantum teleport recharges faster but that's about it.
Bandit just gains a better Cloak without an ability to cancel any time he wants.
Railgunner gains a much better way of getting away from enemies if overwhelmed (just fly away).
Other survivors are subjective.
It is also the only Heretic Set item that does NOT have a negative stacking effect (Other items have increased reacharge per stack).
I also do not see the "replaces your Utility skill" as a downside, or at least, I see it as a very very minor downside.

What do you think? And, please, be civil and don't harass anyone in this discussion.

[Turkwise]

Strides is only good if you somehow have no healing, otherwise it's ♥♥♥♥ on pretty much everyone except for a few survivors.

[Hash3737]

引用自 Convicted Japist：

Strides is only good if you somehow have no healing, otherwise it's ♥♥♥♥ on pretty much everyone except for a few survivors.

I have to disagree on it being only good if you have no healing. Sure, it is better for survivors that don't have any way of healing themselves and is not a "great" improvement for REX, but it still gives you a huge advantage without much of a downside. It is pretty bad on Void Fiend though imo.

[[T]aKer]

Having increased duration per stack on a skill you cannot cancel is, in practice, an increased cooldown, that's it's downside.
You're trading your ability to kill monsters with them spawning freely and having more chances to outnumber you.
And since you cannot cancel it early, the effective cooldown at one stack is 9 seconds, with 6 seconds where you cannot avoid attack or reposition yourself during a fight.
To me, it's a lot of negatives just to heal 16.8% of health.

[Hash3737]

引用自 TaKer：

Having increased duration per stack on a skill you cannot cancel is, in practice, an increased cooldown, that's it's downside.
You're trading your ability to kill monsters with them spawning freely and having more chances to outnumber you.
And since you cannot cancel it early, the effective cooldown at one stack is 9 seconds, with 6 seconds where you cannot avoid attack or reposition yourself during a fight.
To me, it's a lot of negatives just to heal 16.8% of health.

Each stack of the Strides of Heresy increase the healing by 16.8% each stack, so it does heal you more, for a price which is not really punishing imo. This downside is negated if you have items like Gasoline or Will-o'-the-wisp since you can kill one or two enemies and there will be a chain reaction while you just chill until you come out of the black hole and do it again. The same can be achieved if playing Engineer or Acrid (Both Blight and Poison). Plus... you can still use your equipment.
As I see it, my point still stands about it being a better skill for most survivors with no actual downside (Railgunner, Commando, Artificer, Huntress, Bandit) even if you don't stack the item.

[Turkwise]

Most of the survivors you just listed have skills that are way better than strides to begin with, Railgunner is the only one that would really benefit from it.

Also you're missing the most important point, on top of being ♥♥♥♥, Strides is also boring.

[Hiroko]

That downtime not being able to attack enemies adds up to slightly higher scaled future enemies with every use. Engi is the only time I'll use it, because mobility.

[Hash3737]

引用自 Convicted Japist：

Most of the survivors you just listed have skills that are way better than strides to begin with, Railgunner is the only one that would really benefit from it.

Also you're missing the most important point, on top of being ♥♥♥♥, Strides is also boring.

I wouldn't say it's only good on Railgunner. Acrid, Engineer and Artificer still benefit from it greatly, even if it removes sort of utility from them.
Although, yes. It is very boring, as most lunar items are. Still doesn't stop people in multiplayer picking it and then trash talking those who didn't. Egocentrism is fun tho.

Edit: I still think the downside isn't harsh enough, though.

[Hash3737]

Alright, I think I've seen enough arguments. I can see that Strides of Heresy does indeed have a downside which in my opinion is very very minor. I won't be respodning to this thread, so it might as well be closed ot something.

Thanks for everyone replying and have a nice day, you hear me?

[Turkwise]

引用自 Slonyara：

引用自 Convicted Japist：

Most of the survivors you just listed have skills that are way better than strides to begin with, Railgunner is the only one that would really benefit from it.

Also you're missing the most important point, on top of being ♥♥♥♥, Strides is also boring.

I wouldn't say it's only good on Railgunner. Acrid, Engineer and Artificer still benefit from it greatly, even if it removes sort of utility from them.
Although, yes. It is very boring, as most lunar items are. Still doesn't stop people in multiplayer picking it and then trash talking those who didn't. Egocentrism is fun tho.

You wont need it on Artificer at all unless you want to kill yourself by using flamethrower and both of Acrid's utilties give better mobility and damage. Engineer could make use of it but I wouldn't give up harpoons for it, you also don't really need a mobility skill to stay alive and youll have plenty of healing anyway.

[Ninja Zyborg]

strides is fine, dude.

引用自 Slonyara：

Shadowfade is a skill which is better than at least 60% of survivor Utility skills (Loader, Mercenary and Captain are an exception in a way that they lose a significant amount of damage if picking Shadowfade, however, it may not make much difference if they already have a way of dealing enough damage with a primary). Artificer doesn't lose much, she gains mobility and healing. Only losing ability to freeze enemies (which she can do with a Nano-Spear already lel).
Commando doesn't lose anything at all, only gaining extra healing.
Rex is the same as Commando.
Huntress doesn't lose much mobility. The quantum teleport recharges faster but that's about it.
Bandit just gains a better Cloak without an ability to cancel any time he wants.
Railgunner gains a much better way of getting away from enemies if overwhelmed (just fly away).

Nobody uses Nano spear. therefore, arti loses freeze.
commando loses the quick dodge that lets you keep your combat flow going
it's just a straight downgrade for rex (have you even used rex's ability?)
huntress is same as commando (except more)
Bandit gets a worse cloak tbh
railgunner, maybe, but eh.

[Hiroko]

引用自 Slonyara：

Thanks for everyone replying and have a nice day, you hear me?

not sure if pleasantry or threat

[Aleuvian]

Strides of Heresy's downside is that it replaces a skill that, in most cases, can be used to keep combat up. So, while Shadowfade gets you out of combat and heals you, it also doesn't help deescalate combat and only delays your problems and allows you to reposition.

This is incredibly useful for heroes that have issues with positioning, like Engineer, Railgunner, Bandit, MULT-T, and Artificer. In these instances, Shadowfade serves as a escape from bad positioning, but ultimately is a choice whether you prefer the utility of the original character or not.

Lunar items also don't really require a strictly negative downside, but rather they just require a downside. They are items that provide both a positive, and a negative action, and replacing a skill can be a negative action.

[TrumpetBoiTrey]

Strides along with the rest of the Heresy items are very situational because they take away crucial abilities that characters are specifically balanced around. They can be purely useful on some characters (e.g. taking Visions with Acrid) but on others it can completely destroy what makes the character viable (e.g. taking Strides with Loader). They're not really supposed to be a case of "one upside, one downside."

Not all lunar items necessarily have downsides in the first place. Gesture of the Drowned reduces equipment cooldown by 50% and automatically activates your equipment when it's off cooldown. For a lot of equipment, having it automatically activate can actually be ideal, and in that case, taking a Gesture has a massive upside but absolutely no downside. Another good example is Transcendence, which gives you +50% maximum health, converts all your health to shields, and reduces all fall damage to 1 point. So picking up a single Transcendence will significantly increase your health and now you can scrap ALL your healing items and turn them into more DPS. You could say that converting all your health into shields is technically a downside, but in many cases the time it takes for your shields to regenerate is much faster than the time it takes to heal back to full normally, especially if you play eclipse.