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I despise it because it spawns the blind pests, stage one when you don't really have a chance to have mobility items and therefore have a hard time of dodging their heavy attacks. I hate the bleach white look of the map, rally point delta does it better. And on top of that, there's so many surfaces to look for chests which are obscured and the chests also blend in. Not a fan.
Its just a bad stage one map. Characters don't have the tools that early to deal with this stuff. Most of the newer stages fit better as first stage maps than that one. Might have harder enemies or whatever, but in terms of just map design, they're all better candidates.
You're basically describing the TWO pre-DLC first stage maps there are, making a category for each one and turning that into a rule. That makes no sense.
That doesn't make a lot of sense. It does NOT have a lot of verticality, besides a newt altar at the top of the trees (Titanic plains has a newt altar at the top of the arcs and one of the versions another newt altar at the bottom of one broken arc, still too high for engi to reach). In comparison with other stages 1, Distant Roosts has A TON of verticality and covered paths, that have to be traversed to know if they have chests, and a ton of weird paths you have to make if you want to reach the newt altars behind the doors when they're closed, or when the path into the island doesn't spawn. Titanic Plains is way more forgiving, but there are two altar locations impossible to reach with a low mobility survivor, one that's still really harder to get, and one... that you can easily reach but you have to take fall damage to go back, again, punishing low mobility survivors.
In fact, low mobility survivors are SUPPOSED to have it harder to traverse the maps. It's an intended downside for them.
That happens in the other two maps. But in fact, if you go through the border you'll probably see most of what you want to see in the stage, because you go around the two trees that cover the other side of the map.
I don´t think you´re right at all.
Aphelian Sanctuary has A TON more verticality than Siphoned Forest, Its main feature is the almost guaranteed cleansing pools that would get wasted if found at stage 1. One of its possible teleporter locations has a ledge that, if you have no mobility, requires you to go the long way to get there (Again if you're huntress you just jump, ballista and phase blink to and you're there and similar with every decent mobility survivor). Two of the altars are really reachable and the third one... completely unreachable unless you´re Loader. I mean, huntress and merc with an afterburner or an alien head (or a few corrupted fuel cells) could get to it, probably.
The sulfur stage has caves where you can find chests and where the teleporter can also spawn, it has a decent verticality and it's divided in peninsulas that can only be reached through the bridges, through the bouncing platforms or if you have decent mobility you can just go between them. Because of the structures at each peninsula and the cave it's really hard to see all the chests. All besides one of the altars are, as far as I know, reachable by everyone, but the poisonous pods are quite bad if you were to get it as stage 1. Climbing the pools is also pretty hard without mobility.
In comparison, Siphoned Forest has bouncing platforms whenever you need verticality you can scout almost all the level without really using it. The newt altars are, save one of them, completely reachable by everyone. No extra hazards, no extreme verticality, no complicated layout... it's just titanic plains without the arcs and with two trees with platforms around them. And a husk of another tree. And a small cave that sometimes is closed, but that allows you to go up to the tall section of the border of the map.
They each fit a scenario that is early game friendly. Note, there's actually four first stage maps, not two. If you're on either plains map, you can pretty much see everything from two spots and what you can't see you can easily spot from only a few seconds of travel. After that point there's only a few nooks where you won't be able to see a chest. Otherwise it takes no more that maybe 45 seconds for pretty much any character to scout the entire map.
The other two cliffside maps don't offer that same visibility, however they are quite small and quick to traverse. The only exception might be the one with the crashed ship up top over the bridge. There's only the one way to get up there and it takes awhile, so aside from that, the entire map is incredibly condensed and easy to traverse. Its pretty much just a matter of waiting for enemies to spawn. The other version can be a bit obnoxious, but there's vents to jump around to get to spots that take forever to walk up to. You can definitely scout and traverse all sections you need to loot on those maps faster than the new one.
The difference is, when you get up the verticality on the other maps, that's it. You do it once and you've accomplished everything you need. Just once. The new one has multiple towers and an entire ridge and each tower has multiple levels, often with things way up top. Sure, there's occasionally a vent to get yourself up there partially, but they're not as easily visible as the other two maps and unless you're familiar with all their locations, they're not always helpful.
Not really going to discuss newt altar locations because, similar to your comment about low mobility survivors, they're meant to be hard to reach. Difference is, they're also very optional.
As for the low mobility thing, sure, that's an intended part of those characters. However, the other maps aren't nearly as restricting. There's always a *clearly visible* vent to use to get to the high places and you can typically see if there's anything worthwhile long before you actually need to get up there anyway. This new map pretty much requires you to physically get up there to see what's there, depending on the spot and there's not always a vent in view that takes you there.
Not really sure what to comment here, mostly because your wording is making it a bit hard for me to properly understand exactly what you mean.
While there's some heights, the way up is pretty hard to miss. Once you're on the high part of either side, you can see most of the map all at once. As always, there's a few nooks you might not see, but you'll likely know where your teleporter is immediately and have a clear path you take so you end your looting there. There's really all of two paths to take from wherever you spawn to circumvent the entire map and if you just go opposite the teleporter, you'll have cleared the place and ended up right where you need to be every time.
As with both of these two new maps, they were designed NOT to be first stage maps. However, all the sulfur map needs to be a viable first stage map is a few extra bridges to connect the peninsulas and possibly lowering the height of the pools slightly or possibly adding some map clutter to jump on to access higher levels. The amount of work that'd go into converting it to a first stage map would take all of maybe one afternoon honestly. Ditch the pod hazards, add a bridge and some map clutter and boom, great first stage map.
My usage of the term verticality might be causing a misunderstanding of my meaning here. Take the titanic plains map that has the crevasse on it that cuts it in two. There's the smaller side that has exactly one hill. Accessible from the slope on its side or the vent on the edge of the other side. It has one hill in the center with all of two tiers to it and a canyon with an accompanying ledge on the opposite side. That's it. Regardless of exactly how high those things rise, there's all of maybe three or four things that have to be scaled. The cliffside maps are much taller, but if you stop and count the number of things you need to find a way up to, there's really not that many. Regardless of how high those spots are, there's an easy to access *and see* vent that does the work for you.
The new map has multiple towers, each with their own tiers and most of the vent shortcuts are only on one side. The number of times you have to get up top on something is higher. Regardless of how tall the thing is, a single jump isn't enough. While you might be able to learn the vent locations over time, this isn't something that is required on the other stages. The vents are clearly seen from wherever you are if you're trying to get up there.
I think my issue is that the new map simply tries to look flashy with more decoration and detail than the other first stages had and the gameplay suffers as a result. I haven't played it a ton, so maybe it gets better with time, but the other maps were fine from the very first time I launched the game. This one isn't.
my only gripe is that 3 times ive gotten a greater wisp horde of many stage 1 there
No one is saying it's hard, just annoying to start on
So overall, the three are different maps with different features. Instead of there being two categores each one with one map, now there are three categories each one with... a map.
And the new one too. All verticality is fitted with bounce platforms or slopes to walk up. But in the end, ALL maps, early or late have some level of early game friendliness. For example sky meadows is like a "crescent moon" shaped map, mainly horizontal but with some verticality, and the vertical sections have bounce platforms added. You can get any map as the first one in prismatic trials so that's a given.
Yeah, but more than just the loot in the first stage, the thing that mostly powers your run before stage 2 is getting to the bazaar. Just because of the cauldrons, but you could argue about getting any lunars and choosing (when possible) to go to aphelian sanctuary for pearls. Both maps have newt altars that take way more time than the ones in Siphoned forest. I mean, all three maps have some altars that you can reach pretty easily, but Siphoned forest has a single hard one (and literally unreachable so you won't waste your time on it) while the rest of them are literally on your way. Meanwhile, both versions of each Roosts and Plains can get really hard and/or troublesome newt altars unless you're Loader, Merc or Huntress (And the later two still will take some time getting to at least one in each map).
Siphoned forest actually takes less time to traverse than Titanic plains if you ignore the platforms around the three big trees and in particular the multiplatform one.
In the end, time is not that important in the game (despite some youtubers telling you it is). If you start at the top of Distant roosts you'll take at least one minute and a half less than if you start from behind the door (in one variant) of from the island (in the other one) to completely scout and traverse the stage.
By towers you mean the trees? If I remember correctly there are three sections of the map with verticality. The first section consists of the ledge across half of the border of the map with two of the three trees; You can move through it to scout one side of the trees (in particular, to some degree, the one with multiple levels of platforms). There are bouncing platforms around one of the trees so you can also use that to bounce get yourself up there and loot stuff. Depending on where you start you can loot the other tree while you go down, or you can start by looting that tree and then use the slope or the cave to go up the ledge. The second section is a husk of a tree. It's on the other side as the first one so you can use it to scout the other side of the tree with multiple levels (the bouncing platform allows you to see the top level). The third one is the tree with multiple levels, you can leave that one for last, because at that point you'll already know for the most part what is up there.
Low mobility survivors are also optional. If someone does not like taking up more time on a stage, they can use Merc, Huntress, Loader, Acrid, Ion Surge Arti, etc. That said, while Newt altars are optional, they'll help a run a lot. You can get lunars, you can trade your useless items for items of the next rarity and you can choose the next stage.
It being clearly visible doesn't matter a lot. Roguelikes are about learning, so once you learn about the map layout you'll know it's there, even if it's not visible. The ways to get up to the places in there are always the same and have always the same location.
Not really. I already elaborated about it in a previous part of this comment.
I hope I made myself clearer above.
Yeah, just DON'T say they're better stage 1 maps if they're not, because they're not designed to be first stage maps.
That sounds like minimal effort and I'd expect underwhelming results from that. It's a very complex map, more so than something like scorched acres. It's not precisely a good example of a good map for stage 1. Sky meadows or Siren's call would make better examples. Adding more bridges would make half of the stage design pointless and removing the poisonous pods would do the same to the other half.
That said, for a long (By long I mean more than two stages, i.e. not prismatic trials) run a map for stage 1 must always be versatile enough for backtrack to be viable in case you find useful 3d-printers, scrappers, etcetera. That's completely viable in Siphoned forest, but not in the other two maps, in which backtracking is complicated.
For the most part I already elaborated about how Siphoned forest works and how there are not too many vertical sections, but I can't help but notice how fixated you are about being able to see the vent. You don't really need to see the vent. You only need to know it's there. That's different from Distant Roost. In DR, you do NEED to see the vents, because they're not always there. The alternative layout of Distant roost does not always spawn the three vents that allow you to get higher into the level; In fact as far as I know it can happen that it spawns none of them.
Two of them:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782464617
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782464625
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782464679
And the other one:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782464794
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782464798
I think it must be a nightmare, having a low mobility character and not knowing if the vents will even spawn.
Yeah, but the experience of a player is not necessarily a good indicator of the design of the stage. As an example: EVERY Spelunky HD player will feel everything is off when playing Spelunky 2 for the first time. But Spelunky 2 is WAY better designed than Spelunky HD. I played Spelunky 2 before HD, then I played HD and when I came back to 2, it felt really bad.
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But again, time is not that important in a run. In the end a 40 minutes stage 6 win is not really different than a 42 minutes stage 6 win.