Yet another call to nerf Blind Pests

[Blackout]

I've died more to these than multiple vanilla grunts, medium class enemies, and bosses (after over 400+ hours of game time on vanilla, mind you). They've killed me more than literally every other DLC enemy. That alone tells a concerning tale in regards to their balance, but I'll break it down proper...

As a couple folks before me pointed out, they are quite literally an overpowered lesser wisp. Faster, hits harder, shoots more often, has more health. And they spawn in swarms. ON STAGE ONE. It'd make a tad more sense if they spawned after stage 4 or so as a stronger grunt to face off, but multiple other vet players and myself are getting killed STAGE ONE by these things. I can't imagine how newer players are faring with these.

They just aren't balanced, much less fun currently. They are on a lot of stages too, meaning you're constantly dealing with them. Firmly recommending a nerf on these.

[B〄F Altonator]

HOW are people dying to blind pests. Like seriously they are so easy to dodge. You literally just have to keep moving and they won't hit you.

[76561198811524324]

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

HOW are people dying to blind pests. Like seriously they are so easy to dodge. You literally just have to keep moving and they won't hit you.

Yes just move 4head and ignore the other thousand enemies that body block you.

[B〄F Altonator]

Originally posted by Majora:

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

HOW are people dying to blind pests. Like seriously they are so easy to dodge. You literally just have to keep moving and they won't hit you.

Yes just move 4head and ignore the other thousand enemies that body block you.

m8 if there's a thousand enemies on your screen something is wrong.

[Blackout]

Originally posted by Ranylyn:

Listen: I hate the "git gud/skill issue" jerkwads as much as anyone; they aren't helping anyone and just add stupid pointless clutter to any discussion. It's a slap to the face for people asking for legitimate advice, pushing away people who could potentially become valued members of a community.

This is why I try to give actual advice. And why I almost never engage with fandoms because ♥♥♥♥ those people. I'm only making an exception for RoR2 since my friends are caught up in other games so I don't have other people to discuss it with right now. (And am I ever regretting it; this community is really souring RoR2 for me.)

To see that advice met with frothing at the mouth like rabid dogs, and people effectively going "no u" instead of giving it an earnest, non-♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ attempt, is making every last person complaining about pests just as bad. Worse, actually: you don't just waste one easy to scroll past line, but walls of easily-debunked nonsense. Enough is enough.

There has been a whopping ONE singular legitimate counterpoint I've ever seen about my strafing advice, and I've seen it for the FIRST time in this thread: Multiplayer ping. Thing is, this unfortunately applies to the entire game, and is an issue with online games in general. There's things that will be far, FAR deadlier than the Blind Pests if you're having net-based delay issues, like Brass Contraptions hitting you all 3 times for a comparatively early game enemy. So there's no need to single Blind Pests out specifically for it because EVERYTHING will kill you if you're having that issue.



Getting away from ping for a moment: I have a serious question for everyone calling for a nerf to Blind Pests.

Brass contraptions. Why aren't you all complaining about these? They will not hit you if you move left, that's why; their high damage is an appropriate punishment for not doing the incredibly easy thing that makes them a complete and utter nonissue.

Blind Pests let you go in either direction. It's even easier. The sounds they make are only slightly quieter than Lesser Wisps/Brass Contraptions, and are still VERY audible. They do not spawn in groups of larger than 3 at a time (so up to 6 with swarms? Probably? I've never actually examined spawns on Swarms) and only pile up to the mythical 20+ mentioned in this thread if you kite them around the entire stage for a bit while more spawnned, thus proving one of two things:

1) It proves that they're easily evaded by the people calling for nerfs.
OR
2) It proves the lies of the people calling for nerfs.


Please stop projecting perceived elitism onto me; I'm not elitist, I'm legitimately trying to help. But apparently some people never got the memo that "freedom of speech" does not override laws relating to Slander/Libel and are willing to risk court just to reject assistance.

Response to the question here on why we don't complain about Brass Contraptions. I have no issue with them because they spawn later and in lower numbers. You don't get brass contraptions stage one. You get a handful if that on stage two. They are a medium class enemy, not a grunt. And they balance well as a medium class enemy. Also, they are louder (I respectfully disagree on Blind Pests being slightly quieter, Brass Contraptions are loud), have a bigger hitbox, move slower, and shoot slower than Blind Pests. Thus, balanced medium enemy.

Blind Pests are unbalanced because they are spawned as a grunt class and are ridiculously overpowered as a grunt class (for reasons explained in the original post). My issue with them would not exist if they spawned later in game (IE treating them as bigger grunts, which would fit their dmg, hp, mv blend), in smaller numbers (spawning in groups of 3 on stage one is a bit much, especially since that can and has happened back to back before so you're dealing with 6+ within a few seconds), or were put in line with other grunts (drop their stats to proper grunt levels). Think about the fact that you are comparing them to Brass Contraptions mainly, rather than their fellow grunt class enemies. That kinda makes it clear these things are a bigger threat than their early spawning would make it seem.

Are they dodgeable? Of course. You can dodge a lot of things in this game. I personally wouldn't say they are impossible to evade. But they are much harder to evade (even with strafing, you aren't always going to have everything spawn in front of you to strafe around) than their fellow grunts and enemies in a higher class than them.

Hopefully that clarifies why I take issue with them. And I get frustrations with people being rude, but I'd gently caution you to be a bit less snippish at the people who want this enemy nerfed (implying we are lying and not even trying to make good points just stirs drama). I get you have a different take on it and respect that difference.

[Himcules]

I've learned how to dodge them, just don't be moving directly towards the blind pests. It has to be a pretty harsh angle to dodge though.

That being said, I think a damage nerf is appropriate here. Don't let all the people who think everything made is perfect and good get you down, you're not the only one with that opinion. Just because some people find it easy doesn't mean you have to.

[Percussigant]

There should be a Steam achievement for the level of self-importance displayed in the first reply to this thread.

That being said, Blind pests are a bit annoying in terms of damage for sure, but they give out good gold for their hp and have a pretty large hitbox. Imo they're just that : annoying, not problematic.

[Himcules]

Originally posted by Percussigant:

That being said, Blind pests are a bit annoying in terms of damage for sure, but they give out good gold for their hp and have a pretty large hitbox. Imo they're just that : annoying, not problematic.

They become problematic when 2-3 groups spawn on top of each other in rapid succession, and it becomes hard to strafe around them when at any given moment you end up walking parallel to one. As an early mob, having to prioritize them can get frustrating (at least for me), Blackout made a good point in his post about this

[Blackout]

Originally posted by Leviathan:

Originally posted by Blackout:

As a couple folks before me pointed out, they are quite literally an overpowered lesser wisp. Faster, hits harder, shoots more often, has more health.

And as I've told them, that analysis is wrong. Wisps are designed to take you out when you're low on health. That's their function. They're easy to kill, but hard as hell to dodge.

Blind pests are harder to kill but way easier to dodge. And that´s because their function is to take you out when you´re standing still. A proper comparison would be with alloy vultures. They also have that function, and work in a very similar way. They fly around, are pretty hard to kill, shoot faster than wisps and have the same aiming issues than blind pests. They hit harder than blind pests, move faster (on air) than blind pests, take more hits than blind pests, but you deal with them in the same way: Strafe. Also:

Originally posted by Blackout:

And they spawn in swarms. ON STAGE ONE.

Vultures appear in swarms, on stage one, along with Elder Lemurians at Simulacrum Abyssal Depths. Which brings me to my next point. The stage number does not really matter a lot for an enemy to spawn. I think brass contraptions are pretty much the most dangerous enemy in the game overall (excluding wisps) and they appear on stage 2. Clay Templars are a very dangerous enemy and now they appear on stage 2 (or stage 1 simulacrum in Aphelian Sanctuary).

The thing is, enemies are less dangerous when you find them earlier, and by a lot, because the enemy level scales way faster than the player level, at least in Monsoon. A stage 5 brass contraption is a very good potential run ender while a stage 2 brass contraption is just a strong enemy. A single overloading vuture at stage 4 is a potential run ender, so first time I saw the vultures on stage 1 Abyssal depths I was like "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, DUNCAN?" and then I noticed they were just stronger blind pests.

P.S. Also doesn´t matter how many of them spawn. They all aim at the same spot, so they all miss the same way when you move.

It is worth clarifying, I was not talking about simulacrum runs. Those inherently behave differently from standard runs and I don't really see it as a fair comparison to classic. Additionally, you don't tend to seem swarms of vultures / elder lemurians on round one in simulacrum. You may see them in later rounds in the first region, but I've never really had them spawn as the first enemy I see in groups.

In regards to brass contraptions and templars spawning on stage two, you're right... except they spawn in very low numbers, are slow, have large hitboxes, and are comprable evading (Brass Contraptions are easier to evade IMO). So that is also not really equivalent.

To touch on the wisp point, I cited them as an example since they are one of the other flying grunts (though I'd note that Blind Pests are better at the wisp "role" than wisps are). My comparison holds accurate to basically all of them: the blind pest is the most dangerous "grunt" class enemy in the game currently (when weighing its health, damage, and speed combined). One could argue beetles and lemurians serve the same "punish you for not moving" function blind pests do under your argument... they aren't as serious of a threat in that regard.

Regarding your P.S. message, bit condescending innit? Keep in mind entities shooting the same spot from different angles means they are harder to dodge, as your hitbox is not a tiny point at your feet but rather your body. You have to get the whole hitbox clear, not just move away from that tiny point.

[zero254]

This speaks more about the netcode than anything. You've been a slave to latency and aoes when playing online and it pretty much makes it impossible online since your actual hitbox is at the mercy of the host's pc

[Terotrous]

Originally posted by Ün Ün Ün:

I personally think they are balanced as is. If you want some tips I really recommend taking them down before attacking other enemies

An enemy that is the highest priority to kill isn't exactly "balanced".

I would say they have the third-highest threat level of any regular enemy in the game, after Elder Lemurians and Lunar Chimera Wisps. For an enemy that the game loves to spam in huge numbers, that's kind of an issue.

I don't die to them that often, and they do usually miss their shots, but it doesn't really matter how many shots they miss if they only need 2 lucky shots to end you.

In my opinion, their damage isn't really the problem, it's the number and frequency with which they spawn.

[Squishy]

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

HOW are people dying to blind pests. Like seriously they are so easy to dodge. You literally just have to keep moving and they won't hit you.

Honestly I've noticed that's not always the case, playing Acrid I have to use my jump to avoid them because strafing is not fast enough. On most survivors it's fine but on slower ones I can't avoid them. It's not normally too big of an issue, but it can get a bit close on Monsoon since they spawn before I can get any speed or movement items

[TACTICAL D-0GGY]

I think people are completely missing the point. Nobody is saying that they personally can't deal with blind pests, it's just that they have overtuned stats compared to other enemies when they appear - the very definition of "unbalanced".

They have extremely high base damage for a common enemy and do 200% damage on their projectile. They spawn in swarms, and have respectably large amounts of health despite everything else. With a 1 second cooldown instant shot, they attack significantly faster than wisps.

Let me put it to you this way, an overloading blind pest can gib huntress with a single hit.
15 base, doubled by overloading is 30. 200% damage from their spit, which makes it 60. Overloading enemies attach a ball that deals an additional 50% total damage. Huntress spawns with 90 health.

An overloading blind pest can spawn on stage 1. Now, I've seen certain individuals make asinine comparisons to brass contraptions. The obvious difference being that brass contraptions don't spawn at all until stage 2 (assuming wetlands) and they don't spawn as overloading (nor in large groups like pests) until stage 4 and 5.

I actually wouldn't have an issue with pests if they just started spawning on stage 3 or 4. But their stats don't match the point at which they appear in the game, and the numbers in which they do so. I've finished E8 on characters I previously hadn't bothered with (I still don't like huntress/arti as a playstyle) so it's not a "skill issue". These are just numbers. If you feel like pests are fine, argue with numbers - not with your feelings.

[TACTICAL D-0GGY]

Originally posted by Squishy:

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

HOW are people dying to blind pests. Like seriously they are so easy to dodge. You literally just have to keep moving and they won't hit you.

Honestly I've noticed that's not always the case, playing Acrid I have to use my jump to avoid them because strafing is not fast enough. On most survivors it's fine but on slower ones I can't avoid them. It's not normally too big of an issue, but it can get a bit close on Monsoon since they spawn before I can get any speed or movement items

All characters move at the same speed (not accounting for movement abilities), it's just zoomed out for bigger characters, Acrid and Mul-T are huge so they look slow. But, they also have giant hitboxes, which makes pests far more of a threat.

[Squishy]

Originally posted by bark:

Originally posted by Squishy:

Honestly I've noticed that's not always the case, playing Acrid I have to use my jump to avoid them because strafing is not fast enough. On most survivors it's fine but on slower ones I can't avoid them. It's not normally too big of an issue, but it can get a bit close on Monsoon since they spawn before I can get any speed or movement items

All characters move at the same speed (not accounting for movement abilities), it's just zoomed out for bigger characters, Acrid and Mul-T are huge so they look slow. But, they also have giant hitboxes, which makes pests far more of a threat.

Huh just double checked and yeah guess all speeds are about the same. In that case it's definitely the size, I also tried melee Acrid last night and oh god it was awful vs pests. I had to use his special 2-3 times to take down a flying pest unless I wanted to jump at it

[RedEssence]

I don't think they need to be nerfed, the only thing they need imo is a more noticeable spawn in sound. I know whenever a wisp spawns next to me. These things make like no noise when they spawn in so they are easily missed