We need to talk about the balance of health and damage

[Kavrick]

So as someone with 200 hours in this game, and played it since release, i've seen the difference balances of when fire DOT would kill you from full health and how the balanced has changed based on the item pool becoming diluted.

In the current state of the game, damage items have far, far more value than tank items, most tank items in the game either dont scale, or dont give a bigger benefit than damage items. With the way the game works and the difficult scales, damage will not only make the gameplay smoother but will also mean you can progress faster without the difficulty ticking by too fast. With this itself, damage items are far more important than tank items, now stack this on top of comparing damage items to tank items. Bison steak gives you 25hp, twenty five health. This is rediculous, compared to items like crit glasses, soldier syringe or any movement item.

Speaking of movement items, movement items are infinitely more useful than tank items, being able to completely dodge attacks is far, far better than tank items that dont scale and pale in comparison to amount of damage enemies do, yeah i'm sure that 15 less damage you take from reactive plate is going to help you when enemies have attacks that do more damage than your max health, the item pool becoming diluted to all hell isn't helping this issue. There is nothing worse than getting nothing but useless items like warbanner, bison steak, fireworks and reactive plate and having such low damage that the difficulty outscales you because you cant kill enemies fast enough.

Either remove these god awful items from the game, add an option to control what items can spawn in gameplay (seeing as otherwise, getting certain achievements can actually make the game harder by adding a useless item into the item pool) or buff them to make it so being tanky and withstanding enemy attacks is actually a viable way to play. I dont want to feel like i have to use command to have a consistent experience.


P.S Just add itemstatmod to the game, the fact we need to use a mod to actually know what items do is silly.

[Flori281]

As for the actual subject of this post, I totally agree that Risk 2 has a HP vs damage problem. Compared to risk 1, which had a single item that covered all your max HP issues, Hopoo has made very clear design choices to prevent ♥♥♥♥ like RoR1 infusion being the only item you needed to become tanky. However, it has come at a cost-which is looping and getting two tapped by an elite lemurian due to how hard their damage scales and how weakly your HP does. The tradeoff that now exists is HP that is hard to increase without specific items but makes chip damage non-existent, so you abuse one-shot protection or spending lunar currency to convert your HP into shields which allows for high HP but chip damage becomes a massive issue because it takes 7 seconds for your health to start regenerating. I think max HP increasing items should be stronger, and shield should begin repairing themselves faster but the repair itself is slower(base rn is 7 seconds for it to kick in, and it replenishes everything in like 2s). I also think shield should get other unique perks to differentiate itself like resistance to attacks of certain types or items that boost a stat when you have shields

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by Senki:

So I'm gonna ask again, give us some examples of how you would make the enemies require different approaches without turning the game into an instant loss once you activate a teleporter and the whole area fills with enemies that require you to jump in 7 different directions all at once.

I think I mentioned it before, but they could tone down on their current whack balancing. Make healing tougher, make enemies hit less hard. It doesn't have to be game over because you get hit once.

Aside though. really anything small to break the monotony could do it. In other threads I've mentioned making enemy variants who have a slightly different aim pattern, like a golem whose shot tracks better but has inertia to it. The way to avoid that would be to change your direction before the shot goes off, as opposed to sprinting and bunny hopping. It doesn't clash with the usual either, since you can still sprint and bunny hop in the other direction.
Not overly complex. Just actually different enough to elicit a different response.

I commonly bring this thing up on "automate sprint!" threads because how many people want that sort of highlights how useless as a whole the button is.
Sprinting is the default, because all you have to do to avoid stuff is bunny hop and sprint. It shouldn't be.

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by Floridian281:

Originally posted by Ittrix:

Yes, there are similarities to be drawn.
Difference is I deal with all those enemies you've listed differently. Medics have priority to shoot, Tazer pushes for rapid fire weapons so I can unload my mag into them even if I get stunned, Bulldozer encourages me to change locations or bust their face plate before using a precision weapon, Sniper encourages cover and sniping back, Winter and his goons encourage taking him out quickly rather than chokepointing since enemies will grow stronger, shield guys encourage flanking or piercing, and Cloakers force me to slow down rather than charge blindly through stuff.
All the RoR 2 equivalents make me do exactly one thing: Run in circles and bunny hop. Payday 2's enemies are more complex. Not overly, but more than RoR 2 with how I have to react to them.


Simple =/= unvaried.

With no items whatsoever your strategy against every enemy aside from Lesser Wisps, Clay Templars, and some Bosses is to run in circles and bunny hop. Items do make you care less, but at the very base the reaction is the same. I've done lots of no item runs as Acrid, and can very fully verify that.


I have no rose tinted glasses for RoR. I played RoR because of RoR 2, not vice versa.
You seem to admit the enemies in RoR feel more engaging. ... Doesn't that already mean they're better? If 2D forces you to interact with them differently, then that is literally what I'm asking for. For the enemies to force me to interact with them differently.

JtDarth has a solid point here, the games are fundamentally very different. I think RoR1 specifically has way less movement options due to your two dimensions and just how the game works. i wouldn't say it's crazy, but you have to slow down and time your actions much more than Risk 2 because you don't really start out as insanely mobile, and have a harder time stunlocking enemies in general(even with items, i'd say the big "well you can't do anything to me item"/its closest equivalent is the boxing glove and repulsion armor).

Ye, they're obviously different games. You couldn't just copy and paste the same enemies in.

Still, current enemies are bland as fork. That's the problem I have.

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Senki:

Originally posted by Raptor:

Its a roguelike. You are supposed to die. It would be infinitely more fun(at least for me)/engaging if the main reason for dying wasn't getting one shot. Healing/tank items would actually be valuable past the beginning of the game. Controlling the fights on the map would be more fun.

Also there are exactly 2 boss mechanics that make you change the run and jump formula but not even much. Stone titan laser and wandering low health explosion require LOS but it still basically boils down to circle strafe and jump.

The devs have changed things that are considered not fun like the old elites, certain aspects of mithrix, items that were complete garbage. There is no reason why they shouldn't update the enemies to be more engaging and it doesn't have to be to a hyperbolic level like you and the original person I was talking to claim it is going to be.

I can understand hating on tank items(though even there stuff like enough transcendence can make you facetank mithrix) but please don't say anything about healing items, they are very good. Not everything in the game oneshots you. And when you loop so much that most things will oneshot you, well that's just the game trying to end your run because looping forever isn't the goal of this game.

Also for the enemies, not enough people complain about them for them to give all of them new attack patterns, most people like the game as it is. A decent amount of people complained about mithrix,elites and items though.

You and the other guy keep spamming the word engaging but never suggested any actual ideas. I am curious what you want them to do with the enemies while also keeping in mind what I said before this post. What kind of ''engaging'' attack patterns will you give a game that can swarm you with enemies?

It could be something as simple as giving the beetles which basically do nothing the ability to charge up and grab you you inflicting a small stun or a movement slowing effect. And the beetle doesn't have to kill you while doing it. Something as simple as changing a low level enemy into a priority target while fighting. And again it doesn't need to be an instant reaction it could be 5+ seconds for all I care.

Imps could be given the ability to merge with other imps into a Overlord.

Hermit Crabs could attack where you are going to be instead of where you are or could shoot out a barrage in a pattern around you where the safe place to stand gives a buff or some such.

Again there are plenty of small things they could change to make the enemies even slightly more engaging and it doesn't have to be do this thing exactly or you die like you and others keep claiming it has to be.

[Senki]

Originally posted by Raptor:

Originally posted by Senki:

I can understand hating on tank items(though even there stuff like enough transcendence can make you facetank mithrix) but please don't say anything about healing items, they are very good. Not everything in the game oneshots you. And when you loop so much that most things will oneshot you, well that's just the game trying to end your run because looping forever isn't the goal of this game.

Also for the enemies, not enough people complain about them for them to give all of them new attack patterns, most people like the game as it is. A decent amount of people complained about mithrix,elites and items though.

You and the other guy keep spamming the word engaging but never suggested any actual ideas. I am curious what you want them to do with the enemies while also keeping in mind what I said before this post. What kind of ''engaging'' attack patterns will you give a game that can swarm you with enemies?

It could be something as simple as giving the beetles which basically do nothing the ability to charge up and grab you you inflicting a small stun or a movement slowing effect. And the beetle doesn't have to kill you while doing it. Something as simple as changing a low level enemy into a priority target while fighting. And again it doesn't need to be an instant reaction it could be 5+ seconds for all I care.

Imps could be given the ability to merge with other imps into a Overlord.

Hermit Crabs could attack where you are going to be instead of where you are or could shoot out a barrage in a pattern around you where the safe place to stand gives a buff or some such.

Again there are plenty of small things they could change to make the enemies even slightly more engaging and it doesn't have to be do this thing exactly or you die like you and others keep claiming it has to be.

Well I don't see how any of that changes the ''running and bunny hopping to dodge everything'' strategy that this game has. Which seems to be main complaint here. As far as I understood the main idea was to force the players to dodge mobs in different ways, which none of your ideas manage to accomplish other than the hermit crabs one I guess.

Really the only other dodge patterns they can add is some enemies predicting your movement to make you stop running/change direction. Stone titan already has it but I'm assuming you just want more of it.

Also focusing different targets already is encouraged in the game, you usually want to get the strongest enemies out of the fight first because they're pretty dangerous.

[Senki]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

Originally posted by Senki:

So I'm gonna ask again, give us some examples of how you would make the enemies require different approaches without turning the game into an instant loss once you activate a teleporter and the whole area fills with enemies that require you to jump in 7 different directions all at once.

I think I mentioned it before, but they could tone down on their current whack balancing. Make healing tougher, make enemies hit less hard. It doesn't have to be game over because you get hit once.

Aside though. really anything small to break the monotony could do it. In other threads I've mentioned making enemy variants who have a slightly different aim pattern, like a golem whose shot tracks better but has inertia to it. The way to avoid that would be to change your direction before the shot goes off, as opposed to sprinting and bunny hopping. It doesn't clash with the usual either, since you can still sprint and bunny hop in the other direction.
Not overly complex. Just actually different enough to elicit a different response.

I commonly bring this thing up on "automate sprint!" threads because how many people want that sort of highlights how useless as a whole the button is.
Sprinting is the default, because all you have to do to avoid stuff is bunny hop and sprint. It shouldn't be.

Yeah giving more enemies the ability to hit to where you were going to be instead of behind you is the only thing I can think of that will work for this game. It would have to be a pretty low amount though, like 2 or 3 other mobs max so you don't end up not being able to dodge because there's too much stuff both in front and behind you. Currently only void reavers and stone titans do that, and they will be adding more with dlcs I'm assuming so even if the current mobs stay the same, it's pretty likely that they already had more mobs with attacks like this planned.

Overall doesn't really seem like that big of an issue when you find out how limited they would have to be to keep the game fair without changing too much of the core systems/gameplay. Implementing more predict attacks will make the game a little better probably but nothing significant.

Speaking of dlcs, I really hope the new final boss will have an actual good move set not something bland like Mithrix. If there's one place they can go crazy with ideas in, it's a 1vs1 fight with a boss.

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by Senki:

Originally posted by Ittrix:

I think I mentioned it before, but they could tone down on their current whack balancing. Make healing tougher, make enemies hit less hard. It doesn't have to be game over because you get hit once.

Aside though. really anything small to break the monotony could do it. In other threads I've mentioned making enemy variants who have a slightly different aim pattern, like a golem whose shot tracks better but has inertia to it. The way to avoid that would be to change your direction before the shot goes off, as opposed to sprinting and bunny hopping. It doesn't clash with the usual either, since you can still sprint and bunny hop in the other direction.
Not overly complex. Just actually different enough to elicit a different response.

I commonly bring this thing up on "automate sprint!" threads because how many people want that sort of highlights how useless as a whole the button is.
Sprinting is the default, because all you have to do to avoid stuff is bunny hop and sprint. It shouldn't be.

Yeah giving more enemies the ability to hit to where you were going to be instead of behind you is the only thing I can think of that will work for this game. It would have to be a pretty low amount though, like 2 or 3 other mobs max so you don't end up not being able to dodge because there's too much stuff both in front and behind you. Currently only void reavers and stone titans do that, and they will be adding more with dlcs I'm assuming so even if the current mobs stay the same, it's pretty likely that they already had more mobs with attacks like this planned.

Overall doesn't really seem like that big of an issue when you find out how limited they would have to be to keep the game fair without changing too much of the core systems/gameplay. Implementing more predict attacks will make the game a little better probably but nothing significant.

At that point you can tell the players they shoulda killed more stuff sooner rather than later and it's still their fault, lol.

[Senki]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

At that point you can tell the players they shoulda killed more stuff sooner rather than later and it's still their fault, lol.

Yes I'm sure the players would've loved to kill most enemies on screen really fast but oops rng didn't give them too much damage and now the teleporter spawned multiple elites alongside the boss, or maybe even a horde of many, good luck trying to dodge things that are both in front and behind you and standing still will only make you tank both.

Whatever either way I said all I had to say so I'm done with this discussion.

[<̴]

.......as someone with almost 500 hours and 100%'ed the game, this post is pointless.

if you have to ask why i think this post is pointless, play the damn game till you are on my level.

for real. i cant stress enough how pointless this whole thread is.

i can best sum it up into this "thats a you problem, get good. white and green items are fine, fireworks is trash, goto bed Jimbo or ill send you to the shadow realm"

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Senki:

Originally posted by Raptor:

It could be something as simple as giving the beetles which basically do nothing the ability to charge up and grab you you inflicting a small stun or a movement slowing effect. And the beetle doesn't have to kill you while doing it. Something as simple as changing a low level enemy into a priority target while fighting. And again it doesn't need to be an instant reaction it could be 5+ seconds for all I care.

Imps could be given the ability to merge with other imps into a Overlord.

Hermit Crabs could attack where you are going to be instead of where you are or could shoot out a barrage in a pattern around you where the safe place to stand gives a buff or some such.

Again there are plenty of small things they could change to make the enemies even slightly more engaging and it doesn't have to be do this thing exactly or you die like you and others keep claiming it has to be.

Well I don't see how any of that changes the ''running and bunny hopping to dodge everything'' strategy that this game has. Which seems to be main complaint here. As far as I understood the main idea was to force the players to dodge mobs in different ways, which none of your ideas manage to accomplish other than the hermit crabs one I guess.

Really the only other dodge patterns they can add is some enemies predicting your movement to make you stop running/change direction. Stone titan already has it but I'm assuming you just want more of it.

Also focusing different targets already is encouraged in the game, you usually want to get the strongest enemies out of the fight first because they're pretty dangerous.

I mean I only just thought up 3 things when more could be done. I also went every light on mechanics so that you could see that it doesn't need to be sweeping huge changes. I was also trying to move away from the whole one shot is the only threat stuff but its clearly heavily ingrained in your thought process.

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by Senki:

Originally posted by Ittrix:

At that point you can tell the players they shoulda killed more stuff sooner rather than later and it's still their fault, lol.

Yes I'm sure the players would've loved to kill most enemies on screen really fast but oops rng didn't give them too much damage and now the teleporter spawned multiple elites alongside the boss, or maybe even a horde of many, good luck trying to dodge things that are both in front and behind you and standing still will only make you tank both.

Whatever either way I said all I had to say so I'm done with this discussion.

The same thought process is applied to FTL all the time. You paced yourself poorly earlier so now you're gonna die now no matter what you do. And sometimes very rarely you get RNG screwed; sux but it comes with the genre.

[Senki]

Originally posted by Raptor:

I mean I only just thought up 3 things when more could be done. I also went every light on mechanics so that you could see that it doesn't need to be sweeping huge changes. I was also trying to move away from the whole one shot is the only threat stuff but its clearly heavily ingrained in your thought process.

The whole point is that your changes didn't actually change anything you are trying to change other than one of them. I also didn't mention oneshots at all in that post so I honestly don't know what you're talking about at this point.

[Senki]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

Originally posted by Senki:

Yes I'm sure the players would've loved to kill most enemies on screen really fast but oops rng didn't give them too much damage and now the teleporter spawned multiple elites alongside the boss, or maybe even a horde of many, good luck trying to dodge things that are both in front and behind you and standing still will only make you tank both.

Whatever either way I said all I had to say so I'm done with this discussion.

The same thought process is applied to FTL all the time. You paced yourself poorly earlier so now you're gonna die now no matter what you do. And sometimes very rarely you get RNG screwed; sux but it comes with the genre.

Don't know what you're talking about either tbh. What does pacing yourself poorly have anything to do with getting swarmed in ror? You will get swarmed no matter how fast or slow you go. The entire point of teleporters is to literally fight a huge wave of monsters. Getting screwed by RNG shouldn't mean an instant loss just because the swarm ends up hitting you no matter what because you didn't get enough damage to kill them quickly enough. That's what actual bad design is. All I said is that your ideas for attack patterns should be applied to a very low number of mobs (2-3) so it's a lot less present than normal ones, otherwise you create too many situations where fighting a big group of enemies is unfair for immobile characters.

[NarbeVoguel]

I think we would first need to define what a good run means to most players, and I'm pretty sure the general concensus would be that a good run is when you get strong enough to kill things fast.

Tanky and healing items are not bad, the thing is that the way the enemies scale is different to how the player scales, so this is where items help us. How do you make up a run where you get little offense early on? I consider this is where tanky items shine, they make you sturdy enough to survive for a few more stages so you can have a chance at turning your run around, but that's pretty much it. Some items get more and more useless the farther into the run you are, and that is not inherently bad, some of the best offensive white items have a limited effect, meaning that stacking them 10 times is enough, you can get rid of your tanky items later on to get these precious offense items. Idk if Tougher times is considered tanky, but I don't see how this item would be bad to get. This game also introduces the barrier mechanic, an amazing one because it doesn't matter if it's early on or late game, it'll always be useful. You could argue that maybe Aegis could give you an extra OSP (with a cooldown once spent, so it's not too op either), once you have a full barrier, since imo, the item is kinda lame in comparison to stacking brooches, and the latter is so much easier to do.

But let's be real, at the end of the day, the idea is to avoid getting hit, there are no tanky items in the red/legendary tier, only Aegis (that I already stated I consider inferior to stacking brooches), and the desk plant, but healing is important even later on.

Now, to the person who keeps bringing RoR1, idk what you're on, I'm not even sure we played the same games, lol. My RoR1 experience was pretty much the same as RoR2, run and jump a lot, in fact, in retrospective, I did that much more in RoR1. Sure, some enemies required timed jumps and running to avoid, wisps and golems come to mind, but later on you won't be timing your jumps to each enemy on the map, it's literally impossible, which is why you can get items such as the jetpack, or even items that leave flame or poison trails behind you, stuff like that. You can't even abuse of terrain advantage, because even if some beefy enemies can't reach you in one spot, other enemies will and others will spawn where you are as well. There's little to no cover at all, This game you have tons of things to consider, besides enemy patterns, the Wandering Vagrant is a great example, in RoR1 you had to time your jumps, imagine having to do that in RoR2, you'd be complaining more lol, so now you have to take cover from its nova attack, and there's also the Grandparent, to avoid its solar attack thing, you have to hide in the shadows. Please don't say enemies aren't engaging enough or keep comparing them to the RoR1 ones because, at the end of the day, what you do is the same, run around and jump, and time your item usage and skills to your advantage, because those things also exist, lotsa survivors have an offense that makes a great defense, and others that facilitate running away, taking cover, evading, etc.

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by Senki:

Originally posted by Ittrix:

The same thought process is applied to FTL all the time. You paced yourself poorly earlier so now you're gonna die now no matter what you do. And sometimes very rarely you get RNG screwed; sux but it comes with the genre.

Don't know what you're talking about either tbh. What does pacing yourself poorly have anything to do with getting swarmed in ror? You will get swarmed no matter how fast or slow you go. The entire point of teleporters is to literally fight a huge wave of monsters

Yees, but noo. Could easily make the monsters with more unique attack patterns worth more to the director. If multiple high value monsters spawn and you kill none of them, it is your fault. Much like how it's your fault if you let a billion wisps chip away at you on monsoon. As you said, limit the number of enemies who can do it.

Getting screwed by RNG shouldn't mean an instant loss just because the swarm ends up hitting you no matter what because you didn't get enough damage to kill them quickly enough. That's what actual bad design is.

It is, but it comes with the genre sadly. in FTL there's a chance you only get crappo weapons you already have for the entire game. Unlikely, but possible. In Enter The Gungeon you can get crappy chest colors and crappy weapons. You can still pull through, but anyone would be hard pressed to not describe that as RNG screwed.
There's a chance in this game you get nothing but goat hoofs, red whips, and a plant desk. Not likely, but it can happen.

They minimize the chance, and if it happens it happens. Ah well, roll the dice again.