Death Mark

[Shining_Darkness]

Neat item, but with it requiring FOUR active debuffs on an enemy to work it should not be green. I mean what? We have bleed, crono, burn readily available (though burn requires kills since right now only aspect applies burn on hit besides artificer), and armor down which is from a RED. Then also poison but that is Acrid only. Stun is not a status as far as I am aware. I think there might be one other that I am missing but it is probably also survivor specific.

So you need 4 out of 5 (or 6) to work otherwise it gives no benefit, like I said I could be forgetting some debuffs. This is not a green-tier item effect due to the requirement for it to even work. +50% damage is nice but it will hardly ever work on most runs until it doesn't matter due to damage from other sources.

Reduce it to 3 or nerf the damage bonus and only require one OR better yet make it provide a bonus based on how many debuffs are on the enemy, that way suddenly crono can become god-tier as it will finally be useful.

[Jimmy Hunter]

The item works much better in Mutliplayer where players can combine their debuffs. Arty's Burn, REX's Weaken and Bind, and Acrid's Poison together will always make it do bonus damage.

For solo? REX has the best odds of making it useful since he just needs a Tri-tipped and Chrono together for it always to proc. Not that he was really in need for having a pure damage item catered to his already high damage output, but atleast Chrono finally has a use by proxy.

[MimicMachine]

Yeah although I do feel like stun is a status effect and slow is caused by more than chrono.
The only other status besides those is one I wouldn't even count since it'd be obtained so late in game, N'kuhana's Retort.

[Shining_Darkness]

Originally posted by Kraj of the Mimics:

Yeah although I do feel like stun is a status effect and slow is caused by more than chrono.
The only other status besides those is one I wouldn't even count since it'd be obtained so late in game, N'kuhana's Retort.

Slow is applied by more than crono but all sows are equal and the same status. Going through and testing each character has at least one ability that applies a status except engi, but only if we count stun which it does not look like it is counted (I think only the symbols count). If we don't count stun then the list is half of them have something that afflicts status debuffs.

I won't deny it is good in multiplayer, heck maybe too good, but in solo the thing is a white item/trade fodder 70% of the time. The fact that it requires so many other items or abilities you don't have to work is the problem.

It is OP AF in multi but meh at best in solo.

[MeatMorning]

Slow from runald and slow from chrono are different debuffs, right now i triggering mark on huntress with fire, bleed and both slows, no any other status effect items

[Shining_Darkness]

Originally posted by MeatMorning:

Slow from runald and slow from chrono are different debuffs, right now i triggering mark on huntress with fire, bleed and both slows, no any other status effect items

You are missing the point. The point is it REQUIRES at least 3 other items to even function in solo. That is not okay. There are items that need other items to work, but most only need one item or the correct survivor skills. This needs 3 minimum on a survivor that also has a debuff. So 4 on the ones that don't.

Do you see the problem. Much like how pretty much everyone thinks chrono and whip are not green-tier in terms of usefulness, this thing is not green (in solo).

[Krull]

Originally posted by Shining_Darkness:

... better yet make it provide a bonus based on how many debuffs are on the enemy, that way suddenly crono can become god-tier as it will finally be useful.

I agree on this. Got two of these on my first attemp at an obliteration run on Engi, and to no surprise it was just wasted items. If I could at least have squeezed out a slight damage boost by having a 1 Tri-Tip Dagger, I would have been okay with it.

It would be pretty hard to balance though, as Jimmy said, Rex absolutely does not need a pure damage boost item.

I would probably make it start at 5% damage boost for 1 debuff and then have it double for each debuff on top of that. With each instance of the item, let the damage boost be increased by its base value:

Debuffs        1 Death Mark        2 Death Marks        3 Death Marks        4 DMs
1              +5%                 +10%                 +15%                 +20%
2              +10%                +20%                 +30%                 +40%
3              +20%                +40%                 +60%                 +80%
4              +40%                +80%                 +120%                +160%
5              +80%                +160%                +240%                +320%

That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but arguably easier to utilize. If the damage boost at 5+ debuffs is too high, just let it cap at 4 debuffs.

Sorry if the table's formatting doesn't fit your monitor resolution. Blame Steam for not allowing tables in discussions.

[Jagore]

Yeah its a neat effect but too difficult for most characters to get to work. I'd suggest either reworking/making its affect easier to trigger or maybe making it a lunar item..

[Prawn of Creation]

Originally posted by Shining_Darkness:

better yet make it provide a bonus based on how many debuffs are on the enemy, that way suddenly crono can become god-tier as it will finally be useful.

This.

[Mr.Joel]

This is one of those items that's intended with specific characters/builds to make work. Best example is Artificer who has ice and fire abilities. Combine with Chrono and Point Tip Dagger and you'll get it fairly consistently. I don't think this should be changed at all.

We already have a good amount of general must haves for each quality. Nothing wrong with having build items to play around.

[Krull]

Originally posted by Mr.Joel:

This is one of those items that's intended with specific characters/builds to make work. Best example is Artificer who has ice and fire abilities. Combine with Chrono and Point Tip Dagger and you'll get it fairly consistently. I don't think this should be changed at all.

We already have a good amount of general must haves for each quality. Nothing wrong with having build items to play around.

The point is that the characters that have "easy" access to utilizing Deah Mark, Acrid, Artificer, and Rex, are all some of the hardest hitting characters in the game. I don't think it's fair and balanced that these also have the easiest access to increasing their damage further.

I do know, Huntress' Arrow Rain also adds a debuff, but considering it's a static AOE every 12 seconds, I don't find it as easy to utilize as the other 3 characters.

If you do not play as any of the 3( / 4) mentioned characters, you will need 4 items with debuffs to even be able to activate Death Mark. As I remember it, these are the items that can add a debuff to enemies:

• Gasoline
  
• Tri-Tip Dagger
  
• Chronobauble
  
• Runald's Band
  
• Shattering Justice
  
• Effigy of Grief

... not counting the elite aspects. I also do not know if any of the new items add debuffs.

Gasoline and Tri-Tip should be acquired pretty easily, as they are common items, but you would still need two more items. Chronobauble and Runald's are both uncommon and would statistically be less likely to be acquired. On top of that, the chance of getting 1 Death Mark is much higher than 2 other green items, meaning the possibility of you acquiring a Death Mark before you can even use it is relatively high.

Of course you could go to the Bazaar to increase the chance of you obtaining the needed items, but I don't think it's fair to expect players to spend lunar coins to be able to utilize a non-lunar item.

Even if you miraculously managed to obtain all of the needed items, you would have trouble activating Death Mark on enemies, as it requires you to kill an enemy, so that the surrounding enemies are burning from Gasoline, and then beg to God that you can have Runald's & Tri-Tip proc on one of the burning enemies.

If you manage to acquire a Shattering Justice, you could write off one of the chance based procs of the list, but Shattering Justice is a rare item, meaning it either requires substantial luck or a really long run to be able to acquire one.

This brings me straight back to Effigy of Grief, which could also make the activation much easier, but to no surprise it's a lunar item, meaning you would have to spend lunar coins to obtain one. As I said: "I don't think it's fair to expect players to spend lunar coins to be able to utilize a non-lunar item", and to be completely frank here: Who spends their lunar coins on Effigy of Grief?

As Death Mark is right now, I firmly believe it to be one of the worst items in the game, as it requires so much setup / luck to even be able to use it. At least Chronobauble makes getting away from melee enemies easy.

Now, even if Death Mark was changed to what I suggested earlier...

Originally posted by Krull:

... make it start at 5% damage boost for 1 debuff and then have it double for each debuff on top of that. With each instance of the item, let the damage boost be increased by its base value:

Debuffs      1 Death Mark      2 Death Marks      3 Death Marks      4 DMs
1            +5%               +10%               +15%               +20%
2            +10%              +20%               +30%               +40%
3            +20%              +40%               +60%               +80%
4            +40%              +80%               +120%              +160%
5            +80%              +160%              +240%              +320%

That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but arguably easier to utilize. If the damage boost at 5+ debuffs is too high, just let it cap at 4 debuffs.

Sorry if the table's formatting doesn't fit your monitor resolution. Blame Steam for not allowing tables in discussions.

... you would still be able to build around Death Mark, and I even think it would be a much more rewarding "building". If you had a Death mark, but no Chronobauble, and you saw an uncommon triple shop with 1 Chrono and 2 other items, you would have to decide whether to choose a higher general damage output over the 2 other items.

Sorry for the watered down post. I originally wrote it all so well, and then accidentally pressing back on my phone deleted it all ):

[GosuCab]

As I mostly run solo on characters without many debuffs it will be my goto item that flies straight into a chrono printer.

[Krueger]

Having all items be good in all situations would be boring af. Honestly this is probably my favourite item in the game atm. It has a powerful effect that is one of a very few select buffs to all damage (bleeds, burning, etc would be increased by this) and it is gated by an interesting set of requirements.

It synergises really well with the things that are needed to trigger it, and while yes it might not always work for your build, it honestly doesn't matter. That's part of playing this type of game, sometimes you get bad rng and an item that doesn't work for your build. But there are a few builds where this item will be perfect. Its an item that has been sorely missing imo.

If you don't like the rng nature of the game then play with artifact of command and try building some interesting item combos. Then you'll really understand why items like this are so fun and interesting to have in the game.

[GIRL]

Originally posted by Krueger:

Having all items be good in all situations would be boring af.

I agree with this. That's also why a lot of people wrongly consider Dio one of the worst Red items. Like, yeah, a Behemoth or Meathook would be better, but it's still an extra life. People complain about Dio being a useless red item until it actually saves them from death.

[Krull]

Originally posted by Krueger:

Having all items be good in all situations would be boring af.

That's why we have lunar items. Let situational items stay in that item rarity.

Originally posted by Krueger:

If you don't like the rng nature of the game then play with artifact of command and try building some interesting item combos. Then you'll really understand why items like this are so fun and interesting to have in the game.

I do like having items that increase the effectiveness of each other. Synergies are always nice to explore. I just don't like the fact that this item requires so much setup to even be remotely useful for 2/3 of the characters, and even if you get the most common items that allow you to proc Death Mark, it still requires quite a bit of luck.

Originally posted by A Cardboard Box:

That's also why a lot of people wrongly consider Dio one of the worst Red items. Like, yeah, a Behemoth or Meathook would be better, but it's still an extra life.

You can't tell someone that their opinion is wrong. It is an opinion after all.

[Von]

Totally un-needed.

Death Mark is an ABSURD damage item because it scales with all your other damage items. Characters that have access to debuffs in their kit already (Huntress slow, Acrid's poison, etc) only need a few items to proc the effect reliably anyway. What's important to note is that while we may consider "debuffs" to be only things like poison or slow, I think the game counts just about anything that leaves a mark under the enemy's healthbar - for example, the legendary hammer that debuffs armor doesn't actually have to hit max stacks to count for Death Mark, you just need to hit them at least once to get the icon on their bar.

Death Mark is definitely harder to get to proc if you pick it up on stage 1 or 2, but later on (stages 5-6-7) you can very easily hit enough procs, especially if you pick up any of the legendary items that cause unique debuffs or effects, and the bonus damage is, I can't stress enough, actually absurd.