The Problem with Lunar Coins (And the entire Bazaar, for that matter.)

[ZombiBatz]

So I'll preface this by saying that I am no one special. I'm no streamer, I'm no speed-runner, not even someone with 100+ hours into this game. However, while it hasn't been long since my recent addiction to this game, it has not taken long for me to discover one MAJOR flaw with the Premium Currency that persists from run to run, Lunar Coins. Well, honestly it's more like many smaller flaws that become one rather sizable thorn in one's side, but hey, it's why I'm here ranting about it in hopes that someone, hopefully, a dev, will listen.

Let's start with that acquisition, shall we? The drop rate, according to the RoR2 Wiki, is .5% from each enemy killed. Now, this initially doesn't sound too terrible, especially when you consider how many enemies begin to spawn in the later levels after your first loop, but therein lies the 2nd issue: each drop of a Lunar Coin halves the chance of another spawning. Notice I said "Drop" and not "Pick Up." Meaning if in the hectic heat of battle you don't notice a lunar coin that was dropped by a Beetle that you didn't even know existed that just so happened to get hit by a wild Firework over the hill because you're on the god-forsaken Wetland Aspect stage... you've reduced your chances without even knowing. It's not as if there's any auditory que or notification in the in-game chat letting you know one spawned, meaning it is very, VERY easy to miss one you could have collected. Your other main way of obtaining Lunar Coins is by simply 'beating the game' via obliterating yourself at the Obelisk, which rewards you with a... measly... 5 (EDIT:It's actually 10, I'm dumb), regardless of difficulty. To put that in Context: You can get access to one blue portal via a Newt Alter, buy two items in the Bazaar Between Time (assuming they're even good enough to warrant spending this high-cost, hard to obtain premium currencies, which surprise surprise, only about 3 of them are) and... that's it. You beat the game and are rewarded with the CHANCE of having the start-up of a God run. Now granted this can be upped to 15 (EDIT: 20.... I think?) with the Beads of Fealty but, guess what? THAT REQUIRES LUNAR COINS (And the RNG to get it to spawn) TO GET IN THE FIRST PLACE.

This actually leads me into my second problem with Lunar Coins, which isn't even the fault of the coins themselves, in all fairness. It's the Newt Alters and how you access the Bazaar. Accessing the Bazaar requires one of two things to happen. Either A: You sacrifice a Lunar Coin at a Newt Altar hidden in the level, or B: One spawns for free, starting at a 25% chance and diminishing with each portal spawn through either method. Now if you don't know, each level has at least one Newt Altar that will spawn in 1 of 3 random locations. These spawns are often in very off-the-beaten-path, and frankly obnoxious locations, most of which you would have to actively be looking for, or otherwise having Googled the locations of, to even discover in the first place. In fact their obtuse locations are a part of the problem. It does not take long for you to realize RoR2 rewards you for playing fast and punishes you for playing slow, so why in Newt's blue earth would you EVER spend the time to look for these Newt Altars? Especially on higher difficulties? Sure, later in a run, past the first loop, they are worthwhile finds as they can give you access to some really good items via the cauldrons, but even then those cauldrons can give and uncommon or rare item, at the cost of 3 commons or 5 uncommons respectively... that you can't even choose out of your pool of items. These cauldrons are arguably the most worthwhile thing in the Bazaar and they can still ruin your run! If it weren't for the fact that going to the Bazaar pauses your run time, I may say there are situations where you're better off ignoring the blue portal should it randomly spawn. So to summarize, early game Newt Altars are a hassle that can prove not worth the trouble due to how important it is to rush the early game (Farming on easier difficulties on Stage 4 and the Preon Accumulator on Rallypoint Delta) and Late Game, while a lot more viable, still doesn't offer nearly the amount of promise that warrants the entry fee of one of your rare Lunar Coins.

Now, remember how I said there were maybe 3 lunar items worth the effort? I meant it. Those items being Gesture of the Drowned (Which while somewhat situational is still very strong) Spinel Tonic (Probably the biggest reasons Gesture of the Drowned is a really good item, ironically enough) and the Infamous Shaped Glass (Which is borderline broken when stacked.) That is 3 items out of 12 potential items that can spawn from the Bazaar. Now don't let me tell you that the other 9 are all useless. Stuff like Hellfire Tincture or Strides of Heresy can be really good... if you're in the right situation to make it work. Which wouldn't be so bad if, again, it didn't cost one of your precious Lunar Coins just to check and see if that item was there in the first place. Combine that with the fact that only 4 items spawn in the Bazaar... which can be complete duplicates of each other, it's downright depressing just how little the Bazaar actually has to offer. Which is why I am hoping to see this all get reworked. Of course, I wouldn't be asking for a rework without some ideas in mind.

Firstly, no more spending Lunar Coins in your runs. They are far more effort than they are worth (Hence the oh-so-popular cheat of giving yourself infinite Lunar Coins) and simply shouldn't be used for a single run that can still end in an instant. I personally think those coins would be better used for permanent unlocks to give RoR2 a much-needed sense of progression beyond unlocking all the items and characters. You already have a section dedicated to alternate skins and I feel as though the devs plan to continue updating the game post 1.0, so I feel that may be a good use for the coins! It could also be used as a way to buy other skills, not necessarily to replace the achievement-locked ones, but any new skills they decide to add could be locked behind coins instead of some kind of specific requirement.

Now, where does this leave the Bazaar and our friendly immortal, Newt? Simple. Instead of needing to find an Altar to get a blue portal, simply have it unlocked more easily, not necessarily guaranteed, by completing the Teleporter event sooner. Essentially the Blue Portal would start at a certain percentage, hopefully, something in the ball-park of 90-80% and have that decay as you stay in the level. This both encourages RoR2's fast-paced gameplay, as well as keeping the Bazaar from being easily exploited via a certain text edit. Speaking of the Bazaar, since we're abandoning Lunar Coins, how would the contents of Newt's home change? Well, for starters, we can keep the Cauldrons how they are. They're fundamentally balanced and aside from the inconvenience of being at the woes of RNG to which items you sacrifice, work perfectly fine. As for the Lunar Items? Instead of letting us potentially buy all of them, change it so you can choose between the 4 and acquire one. Meaning you can't simply get an extremely strong meta combo off one lucky visit and encourages you to make your choices more carefully. Do you go for the Shaped Glass early in hopes that you can acquire more Broaches and Healing later? Or maybe play it safe and get the Gesture of the Drowned so that you can eventually get the Tonic? This prevents runs from being made or broken by one visit and, hopefully with changes to the lesser popular Lunar Items as well as inevitable additional items being added, allows for drastic shifts in gameplay by these items that are supposed to be complete game-changers. As for the dream mechanic? I feel as though that should simply come as a free option, rewarding you yet again for playing fast by choosing which stages you go on next. Will this mean Wetland Aspect, Scorched Acres, and Siren's Call are never seen? At least until Hopoo makes the levels worth going to. As bratty as that sounds, each of those environments is flat-out inferior to their alternatives. Aspect is thick and hard to navigate, sporting no unique events whereas Aqueduct is open, easy to scout around, and has guaranteed events, Rallypoint Delta is very condensed and easy to get around, as well as having a guaranteed BFG, whereas Scorched Acres is a pain to navigate for how large it is, and the Abyssal Depths has a guaranteed Rare Item chest where Siren's can spawn one of the toughest bosses in the game for no particular benefit outside of unlocking the Loader. But I digress.

Hopefully, these changes are at least considered by the developers and the community as a whole can reach some kind of consensus. I do believe that the current state of Lunar Coins simply isn't liked by many people, and I am guilty of that myself, obviously. So to anyone reading this, feel free to join the conversation! If nothing else, it'll hopefully increase the attention this is getting. However, more importantly, thank you for reading this extremely long and wordy rant about these little donuts. Take care, survivors.

[MarcoPants]

minor correction i'd like to make. Obliteration rewards you with 10 Lunar, not 5.

[ZombiBatz]

Originally posted by MarcoPants:

minor correction i'd like to make. Obliteration rewards you with 10 Lunar, not 5.

Thanks! Edited the post to fix that mistake.

[EyeOculus]

Visions of Heresy and Strides of Heresy are for some survivors a nice item such as acrid in multiplayer games.

Broken crown combined with the Crowdfunder is a force to be reckon with.

Corpsebloom can be useful for short 7 stage runs if you are low on healing items.

Transzendenz is superb on huntress and walking turret engy.

The newt altars are easy to find once you know the basic location of them.

Also. You get plenty of coins each run, as long as you obliterate yourself. With a bit of luck, you get the beats and even more coins.

Stage choosing is actually expensive if you don't cheat your coins, so I wouldn't do it regularly.


Also, I am going not into to much detail. It all sounds like quality of life, a simplification of the system. Don't like such approaches at all.

[ZombiBatz]

Originally posted by Eye:

Visions of Heresy and Strides of Heresy are for some survivors a nice item such as acrid in multiplayer games.

Broken crown combined with the Crowdfunder is a force to be reckon with.

Corpsebloom can be useful for short 7 stage runs if you are low on healing items.

Transzendenz is superb on huntress and walking turret engy.

The newt altars are easy to find once you know the basic location of them.

Also. You get plenty of coins each run, as long as you obliterate yourself. With a bit of luck, you get the beats and even more coins.

Stage choosing is actually expensive if you don't cheat your coins, so I wouldn't do it regularly.


Also, I am going not into to much detail. It all sounds like quality of life, a simplification of the system. Don't like such approaches at all.

Again, the other Lunar Items CAN be good, I'm merely talking about consistent benefits in comparison to the sacrifice of a permanent Lunar Coin just to check. It simply doesn't match the cost of going there because you MIGHT find a good item but you can also just waste your coins. Not to mention something that persists through runs feel like they should have much bigger impact than just potentially bolstering a future run. Yes you can farm for coins but at that point you may as well cheat them in, unless you feel like playing this game over and over again on the easiest difficulty (Which to me, sounds boring.)

As for the Newt altars, yes, they are easy to find when you know where to look for, but they are also time consuming to search for considering how little indication there is for where they may be (minus the guranteed spawns) and the fact that it eats up precious time to check each location, it feels contrarian to the game's main design philosophy.

Based on your last comment, I feel inclined to suggest you re-read the last two paragraphs. What I suggested is not, in my opinion, "quality of life." Such changes would simply be to just increase the drop rate of Coins, more Newt Altars, etc... neither of which I suggested. I simply suggested a re-design of the current form to not run counter to the game's philosophy, to not encourage cheating the game to cut down on tedious grinding, and deliver a more consistent experience that rewards you for playing better as opposed to just getting lucky and having either cheated your coins or having grinded for coins.

[Ittrix]

Let's start with that acquisition, shall we?

Honestly this is more of a lunar coin addiction problem than it is a "I don't get enough lunar coins!" problem. 5 lunar coins is enough for one trip to the bazaar and two massively game changing items. You would likely pick up more lunar coins along the way- I usually gain 10 per 7 stage mastery run counting obliteration.
The chances get lower the longer you go? Well, long runners get to use lunar items longer. It's not like they're going to linearly use more lunar items the longer they play- that crap caps off usually. Yeah, we both get 10 coins after putting in however many, but I only get to use mine for 7 stages whereas they get to use theirs for 7 hours. They have more mileage than I do.
There are actually audio cues for lunar coins- I'm guessing you're just not used to them yet. They make the same sound as most other items when they're popping out of a chest. If I hear it when I'm not opening a chest, it's a pretty sure-fire cue. It's louder, too.
After I finished my mastery runs, I've steadily gained lunar items because I generally only use about 5 coins for an average run (when I'm in a lunar mood anyways), and get that many + whatever comes in drops for winning.

This actually leads me into my second problem with Lunar Coins, which isn't even the fault of the coins themselves, in all fairness. It's the Newt Alters and how you access the Bazaar.

Honestly, it's not that hard to pick up a newt shrine while you're out and about. I spend about 3 minutes of free time on each stage in monsoon (5 minutes total with the boss and some looting after), and it's not very hard for me to do a quick "nope it's not here, it's not there, so it must be here' and nab it while shooting enemies, grab my few chests, and then get out of there. I actually purposefully used the portal for all my mastery runs, since I just wanted to get them out of the way and certain items were very good for mastery runs.
There are shrines that are very far off the beaten path and sometimes out of bounds, but those are the shrines that are *always* there. There is always a newt shrine inside the skelly skull in the abandoned aqueduct. There is always a newt shrine on the top of the mountain near the broken metal thing. There is always a newt shrine outside of the map on the big hill in scorched acres.
The rest of them are just near the edges of the map, which isn't a problem. Chests can spawn there, after all.

Now, remember how I said there were maybe 3 lunar items worth the effort?

Eye covered this one quite well. Almost all lunar items have a niche they perform very well in.
I used corpsebloom in most of my mastery runs. Shaped glass showed up a fair bit, gesture of the drowned + spinel tonic for a few, aaand strides for Arty cuz executes are utterly pointless when you can just use a 4400% damage flamethrower. Had I not gotten healing items I would've used transcendence instead of corpsebloom. I know a lot of people like brittle crown for snowballing purposes too.


Frankly, I hate lunar coins. If I was able to grind them and basically buy mastery runs with them, it outlines a problem. That very much so stands against what a roguelike or lite is supposed to be. They should not be consistent, and they should not be easier to use.
I'll also take a moment here to highlight roguelike and point out that the game isn't necessarily supposed to have progression. You don't get farther because you got a bunch of lunar coins and powered up... you get farther because *you* got better at the game. Anything the game adds is generally QoL or more toys to experiment with- not something that makes it strictly better. Sure, some games stray away a bit like Crypt of the Necrodancer, but they start you out with lower health than they really expect you to live on. They also take away that extra health and progression the moment you go for score or move up in difficulty, and *never* bring it back.

I've made the suggestion before, but I really think that lunar coins should be heavily limited. Either by putting a hard cap on how many coins you can spend, or by putting a hard cap on how many lunar items you can pick up. There are too many of them that offer more gain but no loss when you stack them.
Shaped glass? OSP. Stack a trillion of them. It's almost beneficial.
Brittle crown? You lose most of your gold when you get hit anyways. Stack 'em to the sky.
Gesture of the drowned? Literally a straight buff to stack them.
I could go on, but I won't. But I could.

Of course, the community clearly wants lunar coin abuse around. When every third person has a trillion lunar coins hacked in, that hints to me a good portion of the community wants to be able to spelurge lunar coins like a mad man from time to time. It's not really a *bad* thing. In RoR people wanted to basically cheat in god-runs by choosing what items they had with the Command artifact- and they had their fun with it.
Soo they should make an artifact which makes all lunar stuff free, and removes the restrictions I just said should be popped on. Command is probably coming soon too, so it'd be a nice combo.

[phenir]

That is one long post so I'm not gonna read all of that but I did see one part that stood out to me. You imply that you need lunar coins to get a good run going:

Originally posted by Wick:

Your other main way of obtaining Lunar Coins is by simply 'beating the game' via obliterating yourself at the Obelisk, which rewards you with a... measly... 5 (EDIT:It's actually 10, I'm dumb), regardless of difficulty. To put that in Context: You can get access to one blue portal via a Newt Alter, buy two items in the Bazaar Between Time (assuming they're even good enough to warrant spending this high-cost, hard to obtain premium currencies, which surprise surprise, only about 3 of them are) and... that's it. You beat the game and are rewarded with the CHANCE of having the start-up of a God run.

That is absolutely not true. They can make it much easier to get a strong run going but it's still not guaranteed even if you get good lunar items.

[ZombiBatz]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

Let's start with that acquisition, shall we?

Honestly this is more of a lunar coin addiction problem than it is a "I don't get enough lunar coins!" problem. 5 lunar coins is enough for one trip to the bazaar and two massively game changing items. You would likely pick up more lunar coins along the way- I usually gain 10 per 7 stage mastery run counting obliteration.
The chances get lower the longer you go? Well, long runners get to use lunar items longer. It's not like they're going to linearly use more lunar items the longer they play- that crap caps off usually. Yeah, we both get 10 coins after putting in however many, but I only get to use mine for 7 stages whereas they get to use theirs for 7 hours. They have more mileage than I do.
There are actually audio cues for lunar coins- I'm guessing you're just not used to them yet. They make the same sound as most other items when they're popping out of a chest. If I hear it when I'm not opening a chest, it's a pretty sure-fire cue.
After I finished my mastery runs, I've steadily gained lunar items because I generally only use about 5 coins for an average run, and get that many + whatever comes in drops for winning.

This actually leads me into my second problem with Lunar Coins, which isn't even the fault of the coins themselves, in all fairness. It's the Newt Alters and how you access the Bazaar.

Honestly, it's not that hard to pick up a lunar item while you're out and about. I spend about 3 minutes on each stage in monsoon, and it's not very hard for me to do a quick "nope it's not here, it's not there, so it must be here' and nab it while shooting enemies, grab my few chests, and then get out of there. I actually purposefully used the portal for all my mastery runs, since I just wanted to get them out of the way and certain items were very good for mastery runs.

Now, remember how I said there were maybe 3 lunar items worth the effort?

Eye covered this one quite well. Almost all lunar items have a niche they perform very well in.
I used corpsebloom in most of my mastery runs. Shaped glass showed up a fair bit, gesture of the drowned + spinel tonic for a few, aaand strides for Arty cuz executes are utterly pointless when you can just use a 4400% damage flamethrower. Had I not gotten healing items I would've used transcendence instead of corpsebloom. I know a lot of people like brittle crown for snowballing purposes too.


Frankly, I hate lunar coins. If I was able to grind them and basically buy mastery runs with them, it outlines a problem. That very much so stands against what a roguelike or lite is supposed to be. They should not be consistent, and they should not be easier to use.
I'll also take a moment here to highlight roguelike and point out that the game isn't necessarily supposed to have progression. You don't get farther because you got a bunch of lunar coins and powered up... you get farther because *you* got better at the game. Anything the game adds is generally QoL or more toys to experiment with- not something that makes it strictly better. Sure, some games stray away a bit like Crypt of the Necrodancer, but they start you out with lower health than they really expect you to live on. They also take away that extra health and progression the moment you go for score or move up in difficulty, and *never* bring it back.

I've made the suggestion before, but I really think that lunar coins should be heavily limited. Either by putting a hard cap on how many coins you can spend, or by putting a hard cap on how many lunar items you can pick up. There are too many of them that offer more gain but no loss when you stack them.
Shaped glass? OSP. Stack a trillion of them. It's almost beneficial.
Brittle crown? You lose most of your gold when you get hit anyways. Stack 'em to the sky.
Gesture of the drowned? Literally a straight buff to stack them.
I could go on, but I won't. But I could.

Of course, the community clearly wants lunar coin abuse around. When every third person has a trillion lunar coins hacked in, that hints to me a good portion of the community wants to be able to spelurge lunar coins like a mad man from time to time.
Soo they should make an artifact which makes all lunar stuff free, and removes the restrictions I just said should be popped on.

First of all, I've acknowledged you can get something tanagable with 10 Lunar Coins, (I failed to edit my math to account for the 10 as opposed to the 5) but again, the issue is with CONSISTENCY. Yes some of the Lunar Items CAN be good, but that's the thing, if I'm spending this permanent currency, I want something better then a situational item like Strides of Heresy or Hellfire Tincture. Hell, you point out the exact 3 items that are consistantly good to get from the Bazaar in your third counter-argument, proving my point. I understand how this comes off as, in your words 'lunar coin addiction' but I don't like having to grind/cheat them in, in the first place. The problem is not people giving themselves more coins, the problem is that the coins themselves; giving a potential boost in a run despite the fact that little to nothing done in that run warrented the boost to begin with.

Side Note here: If that's actually the drop audio que, that actually sucks. This game is loud and from all the enemies attacking you, each with their own audio ques, combined with your own gunfire, something more distinct would fit better for the coin drop audio then a simple chest opening sound my mind has already tuned out because it's rarely important.

In regards to the Altars, I'm not saying they are impossible to work with, just that they run contrary to the game's design. Again, one of 3 random, obscure locations in the map in a game that rewards you for playing fast. It simply doesn't make sense to have to do an obnoxious scavenger hunt for these things.

Considering you hate Coins as much as I do, and for good reasons, I'm a bit taken aback that you don't seem to be for the removal of them as a direct gameplay element and instead used as a form of long-term progression to keep someone playing, a way to *REWARD* yourself for playing better, and getting better at the game, and having something to show for it... hense why my initial suggestion was to keep the rewards to either cosmetic changes or side-grades to change how your run works without necessarily making it easier. Games like Dead Cells do this with cosmetic skins to change your playable character's looks, or better yet, Enter the Gungeon which let you use your premium currency on permanent unlocks, and thus more tools to play with. Not necessarily better, but more options.

I find that your suggestion doesn't solve to root of the problem, being that Lunar Coins stand against the concepts of Rogue-lites, and reward you for grinding them as opposed to simply getting better at the game. The issue isn't people wanting to be overpowered, they simply don't want to grind for the coins to get the same results. And the problem isn't people cheating in the coins themselves, but the fact that the game has a mechanic that allows you to essentially have free stuff for having gotten those coins in the first place. Essentially, Lunar Coins SHOULD NOT be usable directly in runs.

[ZombiBatz]

Originally posted by phenir:

That is one long post so I'm not gonna read all of that but

I really should just stop there and not humor this with a response but no, you don't NEED lunar items to have a God run, in fact only a few of them would be good components in God Runs, which is why I specified 'Chance' Even getting 2 Shaped Glass in your first Bazaar doesn't mean you'll instantly win the game, you'll still need your Broaches and Harvester's Scythes.

But to give you a tl;dr: Lunar Coins shouldn't directly affect your runs and should instead be reserved for unlocks.

[Ittrix]

First of all, I've acknowledged you can get something tanagable with 10 Lunar Coins, (I failed to edit my math to account for the 10 as opposed to the 5) but again, the issue is with CONSISTENCY. Yes some of the Lunar Items CAN be good, but that's the thing, if I'm spending this permanent currency, I want something better then a situational item like Strides of Heresy or Hellfire Tincture. Hell, you point out the exact 3 items that are consistantly good to get from the Bazaar in your third counter-argument

I mean we might just disagree here, but I don't think lunar items should be consistently good. They bring a lot of bonus at a lot of drawback. Some of them are going to be better in certain situations than others. The ones that are consistently good need to get thwacked, not the other way around.

Side Note here: If that's actually the drop audio que, that actually sucks. This game is loud and from all the enemies attacking you, each with their own audio ques, combined with your own gunfire, something more distinct would fit better for the coin drop audio then a simple chest opening sound my mind has already tuned out because it's rarely important.

Yeah, it could use something better. Still, it's whatcha got right now!

In regards to the Altars, I'm not saying they are impossible to work with, just that they run contrary to the game's design. Again, one of 3 random, obscure locations in the map in a game that rewards you for playing fast. It simply doesn't make sense to have to do an obnoxious scavenger hunt for these things.

I mean, the game still rewards you for playing fast with them. Quickly checking the locations while checking off other things on the list ensures you can do well with them. Like I said, I was able to pretty consistently use them and still adhere to 3 minutes per stage. It could be argued I was rewarded for being able to do that.

Considering you hate Coins as much as I do, and for good reasons, I'm a bit taken aback that you don't seem to be for the removal of them as a direct gameplay element and instead used as a form of long-term progression to keep someone playing, a way to *REWARD* yourself for playing better, and getting better at the game, and having something to show for it... hense why my initial suggestion was to keep the rewards to either cosmetic changes or side-grades to change how your run works without necessarily making it easier. Games like Dead Cells do this with cosmetic skins to change your playable character's looks, or better yet, Enter the Gungeon which let you use your premium currency on permanent unlocks, and thus more tools to play with. Not necessarily better, but more options.

I find that your suggestion doesn't solve to root of the problem, being that Lunar Coins stand against the concepts of Rogue-lites, and reward you for grinding them as opposed to simply getting better at the game. The issue isn't people wanting to be overpowered, they simply don't want to grind for the coins to get the same results. And the problem isn't people cheating in the coins themselves, but the fact that the game has a mechanic that allows you to essentially have free stuff for having gotten those coins in the first place. Essentially, Lunar Coins SHOULD NOT be usable directly in runs.

Well, I hate them essentially because they offer progression. In a short burst, yeah, but they power you up for awhile because you've played for awhile.
Several times you've pointed out that the lunar coins reward people in a run despite them not actually doing anything to deserve the bonus in that run like it's a bad thing...
Wouldn't giving them long term permanent bonuses also fall in that boat? They didn't do anything in their current run to deserve the damage boost they got. Why should they have it? If they grinded lunar coins beforehand to get a lot of long term boosts so they can cheese past the game, how is that any better than grinding a lot of lunar coins to cheese past a run?

My suggestion puts a limit on how much a lunar coin can be used to boost you up. It essentially cuts progression aside from when you start the game and have no lunar coins. I think that's okay, since your first few runs should be spent learning the game, not twiddling with massive upsides and downsides. Same can be said for if you're dying a lot.
It prevents certain lunar items from breaking the game in normal gameplay, but still offers a good alternative for people who actually want to break the game.
We might just disagree on what the root of the issue is.

[ZombiBatz]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

First of all, I've acknowledged you can get something tanagable with 10 Lunar Coins, (I failed to edit my math to account for the 10 as opposed to the 5) but again, the issue is with CONSISTENCY. Yes some of the Lunar Items CAN be good, but that's the thing, if I'm spending this permanent currency, I want something better then a situational item like Strides of Heresy or Hellfire Tincture. Hell, you point out the exact 3 items that are consistantly good to get from the Bazaar in your third counter-argument

I mean we might just disagree here, but I don't think lunar items should be consistently good. They bring a lot of bonus at a lot of drawback. Some of them are going to be better in certain situations than others. The ones that are consistently good need to get thwacked, not the other way around.

Side Note here: If that's actually the drop audio que, that actually sucks. This game is loud and from all the enemies attacking you, each with their own audio ques, combined with your own gunfire, something more distinct would fit better for the coin drop audio then a simple chest opening sound my mind has already tuned out because it's rarely important.

Yeah, it could use something better. Still, it's whatcha got right now!

In regards to the Altars, I'm not saying they are impossible to work with, just that they run contrary to the game's design. Again, one of 3 random, obscure locations in the map in a game that rewards you for playing fast. It simply doesn't make sense to have to do an obnoxious scavenger hunt for these things.

I mean, the game still rewards you for playing fast with them. Quickly checking the locations while checking off other things on the list ensures you can do well with them. Like I said, I was able to pretty consistently use them and still adhere to 3 minutes per stage. It could be argued I was rewarded for being able to do that.

Considering you hate Coins as much as I do, and for good reasons, I'm a bit taken aback that you don't seem to be for the removal of them as a direct gameplay element and instead used as a form of long-term progression to keep someone playing, a way to *REWARD* yourself for playing better, and getting better at the game, and having something to show for it... hense why my initial suggestion was to keep the rewards to either cosmetic changes or side-grades to change how your run works without necessarily making it easier. Games like Dead Cells do this with cosmetic skins to change your playable character's looks, or better yet, Enter the Gungeon which let you use your premium currency on permanent unlocks, and thus more tools to play with. Not necessarily better, but more options.

I find that your suggestion doesn't solve to root of the problem, being that Lunar Coins stand against the concepts of Rogue-lites, and reward you for grinding them as opposed to simply getting better at the game. The issue isn't people wanting to be overpowered, they simply don't want to grind for the coins to get the same results. And the problem isn't people cheating in the coins themselves, but the fact that the game has a mechanic that allows you to essentially have free stuff for having gotten those coins in the first place. Essentially, Lunar Coins SHOULD NOT be usable directly in runs.

Well, I hate them essentially because they offer progression. In a short burst, yeah, but they power you up for awhile because you've played for awhile.
Several times you've pointed out that the lunar coins reward people in a run despite them not actually doing anything to deserve the bonus in that run like it's a bad thing...
Wouldn't giving them long term permanent bonuses also fall in that boat? They didn't do anything in their current run to deserve the damage boost they got. Why should they have it? If they grinded lunar coins beforehand to get a lot of long term boosts so they can cheese past the game, how is that any better than grinding a lot of lunar coins to cheese past a run?

My suggestion puts a limit on how much a lunar coin can be used to boost you up. It essentially cuts progression aside from when you start the game and have no lunar coins. I think that's okay, since your first few runs should be spent learning the game, not twiddling with massive upsides and downsides. Same can be said for if you're dying a lot.
It prevents certain lunar items from breaking the game in normal gameplay, but still offers a good alternative for people who actually want to break the game.
We might just disagree on what the root of the issue is.

If Lunar Items didn't take premium currency, I would agree that they all shouldn't be good, but they are. And again, The issue isn't in the items, but merely how the Lunar Coins work The item balance isn't my main issue here either. In fact that summerizes most of my issues with your counter arguments, no offense but it all comes off as you missing off issues. The Newt Altars? Again, it is possible to make it work, but searching 3 spots for an Altar that spawns randomly between the three doesn't make much sense when you want us to play through the game as fast as possible.

And I feel like I've stressed this point enough, the unlocks wouldn't necessarily be UPGRADES, and would instead be at most, Side-Grades to offer more options instead of better options, and cosmetics that literally wouldn't change how the game works.

[Cornelius Pumperdinkle]

Originally posted by Wick:

the Abyssal Depths has a guaranteed Rare Item chest where Siren's can spawn one of the toughest bosses in the game for no particular benefit outside of unlocking the Loader.

This isn't really related to lunar coins, but defeating the Siren's call boss does give you a legendary item. It always spawns around the pillar with the eyeballs in it (the one the boss spawns next to). Though I do agree that Abyssal Depths is WAAYYY more preferable to get than Siren's Call, if only bc the SC boss can take a long time to beat and is more dangerous than farming money on Abyssal Depths

[squat_instructor]

Damn, that's a novel, not a forum thread. Can't say I've read all carefully but I'd say you are mostly correct - considering the acquisition methods, lunar items prices, few actually good lunars, the way they are shuffled at bazaar and the absence of incentive to play past stage 7 - they aren't really worth bothering with. I have like 300 stacked at this point and the only lunar I sometimes pick up from occasional pods is the crown.

After improving to a certain extent those that are good (you listed them above) become a bit of a crutch for lack of a better term - the main issue I have with the game is when you get the run going the game starts playing itself and those lunars only bump up the rate at which you achieve that power level. Using bad ones is even less incentivised, as they provide questionable value for the price of good ones.

They only thing I will argue is cauldrons - they are well done I believe and allow you to kinda salvage a bad run with potential trades. Rarely can it actively screw you up.

[ZombiBatz]

Originally posted by Sailor_seller:

Damn, that's a novel, not a forum thread. Can't say I've read all carefully but I'd say you are mostly correct - considering the acquisition methods, lunar items prices, few actually good lunars, the way they are shuffled at bazaar and the absence of incentive to play past stage 7 - they aren't really worth bothering with. I have like 300 stacked at this point and the only lunar I sometimes pick up from occasional pods is the crown.

After improving to a certain extent those that are good (you listed them above) become a bit of a crutch for lack of a better term - the main issue I have with the game is when you get the run going the game starts playing itself and those lunars only bump up the rate at which you achieve that power level. Using bad ones is even less incentivised, as they provide questionable value for the price of good ones.

They only thing I will argue is cauldrons - they are well done I believe and allow you to kinda salvage a bad run with potential trades. Rarely can it actively screw you up.

I appreciate your time regardless, certainly feels better then having people outright not read it or just constantly miss the point.

But yeah, I agree that the Cauldrons are ultimately just fine, but in the game's current state, really don't make the Bazaar worth while unless you're doing 7+ runs and you have a lot of items to sacrifice.

[Ittrix]

I missed the not permanent boosts but I don't think you get to wave away all my counter arguments with that.
While I generally would prefer for lunar coins to not exist or be purely cosmetic, I doubt that's something the community as a whole wants.

It'd be like taking away the cell upgrades in dead cells. Would I prefer that greatly? Yes.
Is that a general consensus? Really doubt it.

I am not pointing out that you can work with altars so they're fine. I'm pointing out that the game still encourages you to go fast with the altars and rewards you for doing so. Just because you tried to activate an altar doesn't mean that I took as long or searched in the same way. Maybe I did it better. Maybe I was rewarded for it.

You could apply the same "but we want to go fast" logic tenfold to teleporters and chests. Why are those okay but newt altars aren't?

[☾⎛sιтєʀ⎞☽]

Just edit your XML file LOLE.