So Loader's "Utility" skill

[Bird Stalker]

Pretty clear this is some sorta error. It'd take some really impressive leaps in logic to say that the grapple hook is your combat skill and the skill that is a charge up wombo punch that tears through everything in its path is your utility skill.

[Dragontoast]

I see where you are coming from, but other utilities and skills feel mixed around or misplaced besides loader.
Based off what most utility skills are I would expect the M551 Pylon to be the utility skill. The most likely reason loader's kit is mapped this way is the mechanics. The grapple needs to be held but also allow for charged gauntlet to charge the best default keys are M2 and Shift as holding R is clunky and makes moving your character awkward. Grapple is also likely the M2 because you will be aiming it with the mouse already.

[Obamenau]

Its only that way so it benefits from Backup mag i Think.

[TamTroll]

right-click is just more comfortable for spider-man swinging.

[Bird Stalker]

You could just rebind the keys so that it is right click. Additionally, I play controller so that point holds even less sway to me, and as I just side it's completely addressed by popping into the settings for a second in any case.

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Its only that way so it benefits from Backup mag i Think.

What, on grapple? How often are you using the grapple to wear you need it more than once? Multiple uses of the charge is way better than the grappling hook and it makes more sense too.

[Obamenau]

Originally posted by Bird Stalker:

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Its only that way so it benefits from Backup mag i Think.

What, on grapple? How often are you using the grapple to wear you need it more than once? Multiple uses of the charge is way better than the grappling hook and it makes more sense too.

Because spiderman

[TamTroll]

Originally posted by Bird Stalker:

You could just rebind the keys so that it is right click. Additionally, I play controller so that point holds even less sway to me, and as I just side it's completely addressed by popping into the settings for a second in any case.

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Its only that way so it benefits from Backup mag i Think.

What, on grapple? How often are you using the grapple to wear you need it more than once? Multiple uses of the charge is way better than the grappling hook and it makes more sense too.

Picture this: You grapple onto a boss, charge up your super-punch, and punch your way right through him. You deal a good chunk of damage, but you're now airborn and launching away from the fight. Ususually after this you need to trudge your way back to the boss on foot. With multiple grapples though, you could turn around, grapple the boss AGAIN, and get right back into the fight without ever touching the ground.

[Ittrix]

A lot of skills are misplaced because of alternate skills and items that might benefit them.

Take Arty, for example. Most people would argue her ion surge is a utility. Does minor damage (compared to her other skills anyways), and sends her flying into the air. So why is it an R, instead of a utility?
Well, way back when, Arty was supposed to sacrifice mobility for damage, which resulted in her flamethrower doing 4400% damage. Giving her that mobility back via ion surge and letting her keep flamethrower goes against what she was built for. So, ion surge became an R. That way it's either flamethrower or mobility, and you get to choose.
I'm not going to claim to understand all of them (and it's mainly just inference), but I doubt they just picked at random which skills to go in which slots.

In loader's case, back-up mags would probably just completely break her flying punch. They still allowed you to get multiple cooldowns with it through a red item by putting in the shift spot instead of the super spot. A friend of mine got said red item on stage 1 by an amazing stroke of luck, and he just killed the boss in a flash. It was terrifying.

[Xilo The Odd]

Originally posted by Dragontoast:

I see where you are coming from, but other utilities and skills feel mixed around or misplaced besides loader.
Based off what most utility skills are I would expect the M551 Pylon to be the utility skill. The most likely reason loader's kit is mapped this way is the mechanics. The grapple needs to be held but also allow for charged gauntlet to charge the best default keys are M2 and Shift as holding R is clunky and makes moving your character awkward. Grapple is also likely the M2 because you will be aiming it with the mouse already.

thats a well thought out answer honestly. yeah imagine trying to hold a charge punch with R, and then wanting to strafe right.

[Raptros]

Change these two around and suddenly hardllight afterburners are a bad red item to get, while backup mags are godlike.

It was designed that way for a reason.

[Bird Stalker]

Originally posted by TamTroll:

Originally posted by Bird Stalker:

You could just rebind the keys so that it is right click. Additionally, I play controller so that point holds even less sway to me, and as I just side it's completely addressed by popping into the settings for a second in any case.


What, on grapple? How often are you using the grapple to wear you need it more than once? Multiple uses of the charge is way better than the grappling hook and it makes more sense too.

Picture this: You grapple onto a boss, charge up your super-punch, and punch your way right through him. You deal a good chunk of damage, but you're now airborn and launching away from the fight. Ususually after this you need to trudge your way back to the boss on foot. With multiple grapples though, you could turn around, grapple the boss AGAIN, and get right back into the fight without ever touching the ground.

Well, cooldowns stop that from ever happening. The reality is you punch through once, grapple back, and just start punching with primary. If you're really intent on using all those grapples then you just kinda waste time for a bit while you zip around everyone's head.

[Raptros]

Originally posted by Bird Stalker:

Originally posted by TamTroll:

Picture this: You grapple onto a boss, charge up your super-punch, and punch your way right through him. You deal a good chunk of damage, but you're now airborn and launching away from the fight. Ususually after this you need to trudge your way back to the boss on foot. With multiple grapples though, you could turn around, grapple the boss AGAIN, and get right back into the fight without ever touching the ground.

Well, cooldowns stop that from ever happening. The reality is you punch through once, grapple back, and just start punching with primary. If you're really intent on using all those grapples then you just kinda waste time for a bit while you zip around everyone's head.

I feel comfortable with an extra grapple or two just for use in emergencies or for extra mobility.

If you're zipping around peoples heads wasting time, you're not playing loader properly IMO. Try using your grapple in other ways.

[Bird Stalker]

Originally posted by Raptros:

Originally posted by Bird Stalker:

Well, cooldowns stop that from ever happening. The reality is you punch through once, grapple back, and just start punching with primary. If you're really intent on using all those grapples then you just kinda waste time for a bit while you zip around everyone's head.

I feel comfortable with an extra grapple or two just for use in emergencies or for extra mobility.

If you're zipping around peoples heads wasting time, you're not playing loader properly IMO. Try using your grapple in other ways.

I'm trying to say you only need so much grapple before you're wasting time.

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by Bird Stalker:

Originally posted by Raptros:

I feel comfortable with an extra grapple or two just for use in emergencies or for extra mobility.

If you're zipping around peoples heads wasting time, you're not playing loader properly IMO. Try using your grapple in other ways.

I'm trying to say you only need so much grapple before you're wasting time.

Well yeah, but that isn't unique to Loader. There's definitely an upper limit to how many times in a row you want to spam Rex's M2. Same goes for Arty since she usually wants cooldown reduction stuff anyways (Bandolier's eventually gonna replenish enough). Engineer can only spam 4 mines at once too, so he's also on that list. In the same boat, Merc often weaves M2's between other skills so he wouldn't get much out of really spamming the back-up mags more than a short handful.
Doesn't mean all the skills are out of order on them.

Originally posted by Ittrix:

A lot of skills are misplaced because of alternate skills and items that might benefit them.

It'd just be waaaay too busted to let Loader fire off shifts with back-up mags or pylons, which are the only other M2 slots. That leaves grappling hook, which yes has an upper limit, but two or three can't hurt.

[TamTroll]

Originally posted by Bird Stalker:

Well, cooldowns stop that from ever happening. The reality is you punch through once, grapple back, and just start punching with primary. If you're really intent on using all those grapples then you just kinda waste time for a bit while you zip around everyone's head.

that's kind of the intent though? The point is not to punch through, grapple back, and then super-punch again. you'd need a completely seperate item for that. the intent is to punch through, grapple back, and then proceed to punch with M1.

It's not the super-punch no, but it's more damage. It's better to be at the boss's throat punching the hell out of them then it is to be twenty yards away trying to get to the boss again at a brisk jog.

Additional grapples basically allow for greater control and maneuverability. The Loader is very slow on foot, and her super-punch and grapple have a tendancy to send her flying in all directions. If you aim poorly, or even just get unlucky, you may find yourself flung off away from the fight, or just into a really bad spot. Having backup mags providing you with more grapple capability allows you to avoid that. You can quickly correct your direction, get out of dodge, or even just maneuver around the map faster then the gradual meander she calls a walkspeed.

"wasting time zipping around everyone's head" is not a symptom of "Backup mags for grapple is bad(tm)", it's a symptom of bad players.

[Bird Stalker]

Originally posted by TamTroll:

Originally posted by Bird Stalker:

Well, cooldowns stop that from ever happening. The reality is you punch through once, grapple back, and just start punching with primary. If you're really intent on using all those grapples then you just kinda waste time for a bit while you zip around everyone's head.

that's kind of the intent though? The point is not to punch through, grapple back, and then super-punch again. you'd need a completely seperate item for that. the intent is to punch through, grapple back, and then proceed to punch with M1.

It's not the super-punch no, but it's more damage. It's better to be at the boss's throat punching the hell out of them then it is to be twenty yards away trying to get to the boss again at a brisk jog.

Additional grapples basically allow for greater control and maneuverability. The Loader is very slow on foot, and her super-punch and grapple have a tendancy to send her flying in all directions. If you aim poorly, or even just get unlucky, you may find yourself flung off away from the fight, or just into a really bad spot. Having backup mags providing you with more grapple capability allows you to avoid that. You can quickly correct your direction, get out of dodge, or even just maneuver around the map faster then the gradual meander she calls a walkspeed.

"wasting time zipping around everyone's head" is not a symptom of "Backup mags for grapple is bad(tm)", it's a symptom of bad players.

You really don't need that much movement though. Not when that movement doesn't allow you to stay on offense. I feel like what I'm saying is only being partly read and I am having to address a bunch of different thoughts that don't actually look at what all I am saying. Maybe I'm just not expressing myself right.

Backup grapples for grab, while not agressively bad, sure ain't good. Loader is far and away my favorite character and if I don't have the most time spent on him I soon will. While it's possible I'm novice, I'm pretty certain there is a hard limit on how much grapple hooking around is productive.

And again, grapple hook sounds a lot more like a utility skill than the punch plus ultra you can throw out there. I hear the complaints about bad key bindings, but you could just as easily change them to some more reasonable. I had to do that for artificer because I thought their lay out was just busted.