Power Creep and Core Game problems Rant

[Dragontoast]

A lot of the unlockable skills let previously "weak" characters swap out their skills for higher immediate damage: Phase blast and Ballista being the most obvious.
They are powerful attacks, going from 230% to 8*200% and 225%(dot 6s) to 3*900.
The power jump is pretty incredible, but why does it exist?

I believe it exists because enemy health values, get ready for a rant.
1/3 of enemies have less than 200hp and 1/3 have over 600hp, this is without counting bosses.
There is a 300% increase in base hp for enemies from the lowest hp bracket to reach the highest hp bracket. This is an issue because scaling is based on 30% of an enemies base hp and elites increase their hp values by 450% or 2350% depending on the type.
Risk of Rain kept everything in a very tight range, the lowest hp an enemy had was 85hp(excluding tiny imps) and the highest was 420hp. This is only a small 494% increase compared to the same comparison in RoR2, lowest 35hp highest 900hp(just enemies not bosses), which is a 2571% increase.

The bloatage is real, even without bringing elites into this. An elite lesser wisp is nothing so the game throws it at you early, a 4.5*bonus or a 23.5* bonus aren't that bad if the enemy has 35hp. And then you get to elder lemurians where even at level 1 an elite of this guy bloats up fast.
4,050hp or 21,150hp depending on the elite type, at level 1(it only gets worse).
IMO Old Guillotine isn't a bonus it's a band-aid, it is a flawed solution to a big problem(just like OSP). It was introduced with Malachite(23.5*hp) elites as a direct cure for the problem it created.
Items should not exist to balance out design choices, they should be bonuses not requirements.

I think the game needs to tone back enemy hp values and item/skill damage % values(even enemy skills), RoR2's values are too erratic currently and need a stricter standard for a good gameplay balance.
By lowering all the values to a stricter range you won't need OSP, guillotine will be a bonus rather than a need, infusion might finally matter, every healing item won't need major tweaking to make them scale better, player level has a better impact, etc etc.

Do you see a problem? Because I know I see one and it keeps creating more of them.
Rant Over.

[Thug Killadome]

+1 to this. Thanks to the scaling and elite bonuses, enemies get really tanky REALLY fast. Its not so bad the first few levels when an elite wisp or lemurian is all the game will really give you but you really feel an almost immediate jump around the 30 minute mark where enemies just start to get super spongy. It the devs are unwilling to adjust enemy HP/ scaling to fit the current power of items, they should strongly reconsider making the current pool of items much more equal in terms of power--the only real way to get a long run is to get a busted build early on or take glass

[TrueEvil]

There are so many problems in this game imo, this just scratches the surface.

But agree here.

[Ittrix]

I've definitely noticed characters getting some insane power increases with alt skills (usually with annoyance that Arty did not). And it's obvious that elite enemies are bulky. Seriously, people have been complaining about Horde of Many for awhile and it was voted least favorite boss awhile back.
As for HP... Probably better to exclude lesser wisps and jellyfish from those numbers. They're pretty much made to die quickly. That makes it 80 HP to 900 or 1125%. Doubled that of RoR, but we also have to consider that characters tend to be cranking out more damage in this game, and capable of doing it on the go as well. They're going to jump that gap in the numbers quicker. Plus, Elder Lemurians are kind of an outlier even on the heavier boy's scale. (20% more HP than the previous entry.)
Once we introduce elites that gap compounds though, so it's a problem there of course. Shortening the HP gap some like you say couldn't hurt, but I think the bigger issue is the insane modifiers on elites.

I've personally never noticed enemies getting to feel 'spongy' for me in general aside from elites. Elites can be a serious issue though, and Horde of Many is just a big slap in the face depending on what it summons due to that.

Edit: I mentioned it on another thread, but I find the game just goes way too slow at first. Consider how many items you could pick up on *every* stage in RoR compared to how many you can in RoR 2. The numbers even out later, sure, but early on everyone's practically bum rushing! Snowballing is real, and getting messed with from the get go can definitely impact your game later.

[Percher]

Yes. Yes to all of that.

[Dragontoast]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

I've definitely noticed characters getting some insane power increases with alt skills (usually with annoyance that Arty did not). And it's obvious that elite enemies are bulky. Seriously, people have been complaining about Horde of Many for awhile and it was voted least favorite boss awhile back.
As for HP... Probably better to exclude lesser wisps and jellyfish from those numbers. They're pretty much made to die quickly. That makes it 80 HP to 900 or 1125%. Doubled that of RoR, but we also have to consider that characters tend to be cranking out more damage in this game, and capable of doing it on the go as well. They're going to jump that gap in the numbers quicker. Plus, Elder Lemurians are kind of an outlier even on the heavier boy's scale. (20% more HP than the previous entry.)
Once we introduce elites that gap compounds though, so it's a problem there of course. Shortening the HP gap some like you say couldn't hurt, but I think the bigger issue is the insane modifiers on elites.

I've personally never noticed enemies getting to feel 'spongy' for me in general aside from elites. Elites can be a serious issue though, and Horde of Many is just a big slap in the face depending on what it summons due to that.

Edit: I mentioned it on another thread, but I find the game just goes way too slow at first. Consider how many items you could pick up on *every* stage in RoR compared to how many you can in RoR 2. The numbers even out later, sure, but early on everyone's practically bum rushing! Snowballing is real, and getting messed with from the get go can definitely impact your game later.

True, Elite multipliers are a big issue and the most felt by everyone. 23.5*hp and sextuple damage are just unnecessary bloating of numbers, it's gross and leads to boring gameplay of get touched once you're dead but shoot this guy for several minutes to kill him. Elite multipliers should get scaled down to 1.5*hp for normal elites and 4.5*hp for malachite and celestines. I think elite damage should be capped at double if they even should get a bonus, most enemies hit hard enough that double damage will kill you so there is no need for sextuple damage.

I also agree that Artificer needs a touchup due to the recent power bloat, she was the original high damage burst and now everyone is doing it. Seriously, she kept 1200% max damage skills while Loader busted out with 2700% and gave Commando and Huntress skills that make Artificer look weak. Artificer doesn't just need to get boosted again, she needs to be diversified from Commando as well. They are the exact same stats, armor would be a good start since her mobility is trash tier.

[Dragontoast]

Originally posted by Dang it...:

+1 to this. Thanks to the scaling and elite bonuses, enemies get really tanky REALLY fast. Its not so bad the first few levels when an elite wisp or lemurian is all the game will really give you but you really feel an almost immediate jump around the 30 minute mark where enemies just start to get super spongy. It the devs are unwilling to adjust enemy HP/ scaling to fit the current power of items, they should strongly reconsider making the current pool of items much more equal in terms of power--the only real way to get a long run is to get a busted build early on or take glass

Exactly, the scaling lets enemies run away too fast for player scaling to keep up even remotely.
The power increase just is too steep and makes a wall if you don't get the right items from rng.
This is why people exploit OSP, the game made itself too unreasonable to not exploit it.

In Risk of Rain even with no items you could take multiple hits and survive even in HAHAHA on Monsoon. It would help RoR2 a lot to adopt the leveling armor from the first game, currently late game just becomes bullet sponges that will instantly kill you by dealing double or sextuple damage of an already overkill value.
Because that is fun and totally not a tedious and boring slog /s.

[Moschusbock]

agree 100%

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by Dragontoast:

This is why people exploit OSP, the game made itself too unreasonable to not exploit it.

In Risk of Rain even with no items you could take multiple hits and survive even in HAHAHA on Monsoon. It would help RoR2 a lot to adopt the leveling armor from the first game, currently late game just becomes bullet sponges that will instantly kill you by dealing double or sextuple damage of an already overkill value.
Because that is fun and totally not a tedious and boring slog /s.

Item choice in RoR 2 isn't so great either in terms of 'not dying' either.
Infusion is the only thing that increases HP that can be healed immediately, rose bucklers and titanic knurl are the only armor items I can think of and one of them is only active when you aren't attacking. Teddy bears aren't a percent damage decrease anymore but a percent chance to nullify damage. On average it has the same effect, but the deviation is insane. it's just not consistent. I've heard rumors that they're gonna add something akin to bitter root, but still...

[Dragontoast]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

Item choice in RoR 2 isn't so great either in terms of 'not dying' either.
Infusion is the only thing that increases HP that can be healed immediately, rose bucklers and titanic knurl are the only armor items I can think of and one of them is only active when you aren't attacking. Teddy bears aren't a percent damage decrease anymore but a percent chance to nullify damage. On average it has the same effect, but the deviation is insane. it's just not consistent. I've heard rumors that they're gonna add something akin to bitter root, but still...

The loss of armor drastically affected the game, I have no idea why they even tried to push it under the rug(it only exists on rose buckler and the characters blessed with starting armor). It is why low fixed values of healing were able to stay relevant and it kept enemy damage from getting out of hand(like it currently is).
While I am glad there will be better ways to increase hp, I am dissapointed that Hopoo seem to be ignoring their big mistakes like they have to prove they aren't in the wrong and can make it work out without backpedaling.
Tough Times was better than Tougher Times by miles, it makes me sad Hopoo swapped a good mechanic like armor for RNG coinflip damage blocks.

Btw Colossal Knurl from the first game gave 6 armor, Titanic Knurl does not but is otherwise mostly identical.

[Scarlet]

Finally some good feedback in this community for once. I agree to this.

[Flori281]

Great post, you hit the nail on the head. And the massively slower starting pace compared to RoR1 only exacerbates this scaling issue. Adding back armor would also help and I find it kinda odd Hoppo reintroduced a RoR1 item that reduced enemy armor but didn't let players get it outside of that silly shield.

[Zooblesnoops]

Good post. Late game is far more dictated by "how good your item setup is" than how you play which is problematic - as you said, items need to be bonuses rather than needs, although it is the nature of RoR to function this way. RoR 1 was similar but not nearly as extreme; not having an excellent build wasn't a death sentence but did make gameplay much harder, whereas without a great setup in RoR 2 taking on a Malachite Elder Lemurian at 80 minutes on Monsoon will take minutes for a single, non-boss enemy. Forcing that amount of time to fight a single enemy is against the RoR formula of "play faster".

[Shining_Darkness]

It wouldn't even be an issue if players had more ways of increasing their BASE damage which everything else scales off of. The +damage per level is too small in comparison to the ridiculous enemy HP and damage scaling. It gets out of hand real fast and is no fun if the game does not give you those like 5 S-tier greens that actually have a big impact on your damage output (bands, ukulele, ATG, wisp).

I love that the devs are all "players are abusing shaped glass and OSP in unintended ways" maybe because that is one of the only viable ways to both get damage and survive in late game.

Really hope they are cooking up some rebalances for the next major patch because it is getting real old getting an almost good run but the game refuses to either give damage or sustainability items so you lose. I also hope the "artifacts" are not going to be their solution.

[NoTruePunk]

The problem isn't HP, it's armor. Enemies get armor and you don't.

[Dragontoast]

Originally posted by NoTruePunk:

The problem isn't HP, it's armor. Enemies get armor and you don't.

As far as I know only bosses get armor and considering boss HP variance is only 133%(excluding OW) I don't see them as a big issue. Their Elites also enter the game late enough that it feels fair for them to receive the bonus 4.5% hp.
Player armor will only solve the enemy damage problem, which is a big issue don't get me wrong.