New combat "2.0" system - it's not too late (Feedback post)

[Jedi]

Hello,

This is feedback not the rant post.

I think it's not too late for devs to admit that this almost 10 years old combat system from Chivalry is obsolete and should be updated to newest standards.

I'm maybe not an expert but playing both games I developed kind of idea how this system would look like to be more pleasent for people, still giving a huge skill window for veterans.

General idea is not to remove drags and accels but to update them to newer and more realisticly looking standards.

1. Weapons needs to have different dmg depends on mass and speed (acceleration), would be also nice if distance from the target could generate as called momentum (force*length of the weapon). In this case when the enemy standing very close being hit by a longsword this would give less damage.

2. Drags will not exist in the current form. This means that to perform as called "drag" you will simply make a bigger e.g. swing that can generate more acceleration and could be combined with sprint. Drag will be generated by holding attack button.

3. Sprinting while performing attacks needs to be drastically limited and only small dodges or short sprints should be allowed.

4. Bring back holding block for not only shields but also for every weapon. This is stupid and unrealistic idea to give only a short window for block only to artificially increase difficulty level.

Instead there should be a variable cost of stamina for each weapon if constant block holding and variable stamina cost for constant parrying.

How this would work?

a) When attack is perform attack button is held which generate swing or thrust but can be released earlier generating less windows for further accel (without or with special bar) - This would be point 2, as called "drags"

b) When attack button is released acceleration being generated by pulling mouse in the proper direction. - This would be point 1, as called "accels".

Here I would also consider slowering your weapon by pulling mouse in the opposite direction to attack. This could be used in case of miss or fighting with multiple enemies to reduce stamina cost and time to perform another attack or parry.

c) When attack is performed movement should change and be different to normal movement (some kind of fighting stance that could be also triggered for fighting with multiple enemies). - In this case we are coming to point 3, where sprinting should be allowed only in specific stances, attacks, for specific weapons.

d) Holding block would be indispensable element of this fighting system. Could be also combined with current system where there is a need to move camera into incoming attack direction. As mentioned before this would cost stamina so constant blocking will depleat it and open the guard.

This could bring shield to it's previous glory not as super OP system but absolutely different kind of combat. Shield were mostly combined with shorter/lighter weapons so disadvantage of using this was a short range and in this case less momentum with the shorter weapon and less dmg accordingly.

In this case shield/weapon combo could be in advantage when fighting with multimple enemies but in dissadvantage when fighting 1 vs 1 because enemy with e.g. longsword could keep warrior with shield at distance and give blows with big acceleration depleating stamina.

I understand that this discription is very basic and consist of multiple gaps but it gives the general idea how to mimic realistic combat and make it more intuitive for most players, but still extremally demanding in terms of skill and training.

[Punished Jeremy]

Casual reminder that you almost never see people use Mordhau grip in this game called mordhau

[BigJ]

Punished Jeremy님이 먼저 게시:

Casual reminder that you almost never see people use Mordhau grip in this game called mordhau

Because it's made for people snorting ilegal substances due ro the requirements for it.

[BigJ]

BarrothMuud님이 먼저 게시:

Self-reliant Battle Monk님이 먼저 게시:

1. Achieving more damage by executing quicker swings doesn't lower the skill ceiling, and it doesn't make the game less fun. Watching your stamina more closely also doesn't make the game more bland for me.

2. Nobody proposed for a lengthy animation, but rather the option to have one and prepare for an attack. There is nothing clunky about being able to hold LMB.

3. The only problem "Chivalry" had with charged sprinting attacks for example, which is a combat stance, was that the server couldn't handle it and that animations weren't synchronized properly.

4. Another way of handling blocks is to restrict the block/parry box instead of just turning it into a momentary bubble of invincibility.

1. I agree with this. Getting bonus damage to your attack rewards your ability to attack with proper timing, momentum, footwork and appropriately represents your attempt at being on the offensive. Meanwhile, losing out damage due to your stepping away or swinging at a bad angle can be a trade off for attacking whilst defensively moving away from your target. This may encourage players to be more aggressive, which sounds a lot more fun to me.

2. I'm pretty biased against this whole Chivalry-inspired drag-accel system (admittedly a Mount&Blade fan). Dragging just seems like an inferior version of holding LMB to just "chamber" your attack before releasing (Mordhau simply uses "chamber" to refer to "chamber blocking"; I'm used to using "chamber" referring to the act of holding your attack https://mountandblade.fandom.com/wiki/Chamber_block). Dragging only works in games like Mordhau because the combat is slow as molasses and parrying has a cooldown.

3. Still feel weird about stances. Bannerlord has them, but I still haven't gotten used to it. Kingdom Come: Deliverance also has them but they felt really clunky at first.

4. Held blocks would be strong in Mordhau's current system. I agree about reducing the block/parry box, but that wouldn't be enough. I feel that speeding up all attack animations is required for offensive gameplay to compete with held blocks.

These suggestions are based on my opinions and they're arguably selfish changes that suit my taste and not most peeps here. I figured my two cents could help. Although Chiv/Mord are very popular multiplayer "slashers" with robust combat systems, there are other games, like M&B Warband, KC: Deliverance, and For Honor(to an extent), that offer other perspectives to how other systems simulating swordplay are fun and engaging in their own ways.

Also, about realism. If players/devs don't care about realism in Mordhau, tHeN cAn We GeT fEmAle ChArAcTeRs??
Jokes aside, realism in terms of swordplay can definitely help with developing combat. For example, chamber blocks, though seemingly useless in Mordhau's slow combat, are not unlike Mastercuts (Meisterhau) in German fencing, in that it is an attack that also parries/blocks an incoming strike. Heck, maybe make mastercuts an actual thing by turning clashing into a rock-paper-scissors scenario where the winning weapon's attack goes through. Devs don't have to aim at being realistic, but I'm sure they can still find inspiration from realism.

1.) Both sweet spot and momentum damage is an in-joke in the community because it would kill swing manipulation as a concept and reduce the skill ceiling drastically. The game would devolve into endless stamina wars because you can't actually out-play anyone.

2.) Making drags clunky to execute would make them useless. Right now accels are practically the be all and end all for a number of reasons and drags don't need to be made worse.

3.) Vague stance ideas have been proposed in the past and they always lack detailed information as to how they would work, but it always ends up with a "no" because it's an unnecessary clunky balance nightmare.

4.) Held block has always been incredibly strong and it absolutely does not need to be added to all weapons. This is the #1 reason why fights in Chiv II devolve into stamina wars even at higher skill levels. It's a garbage idea.

If you don't think the old held block for shields was broken you're categorically wrong. You could avoid any and all swing manipulation. Only recently have shields been made less broken OP because now they're actually vulnerable to kicks, because before this newest patch you could block kicks - the thing which was supposed to counter them.

Watch this clip and tell me again they were underpowered: https://streamable.com/b3tm18

The game isn't and shouldn't be aiming to be more realistic. That was never the devs intention and never will be, thankfully. It should be aiming to cut bandaid mechanics, lower the skill floor so it has any amount of new player retention by removing garbage like chambers and updating the tutorial, increase release times globally ... etc.

Thanks killslim.

[Kebbie the Juicy]

BHB | BigJ님이 먼저 게시:

BarrothMuud님이 먼저 게시:

Self-reliant Battle Monk님이 먼저 게시:

1. Achieving more damage by executing quicker swings doesn't lower the skill ceiling, and it doesn't make the game less fun. Watching your stamina more closely also doesn't make the game more bland for me.

2. Nobody proposed for a lengthy animation, but rather the option to have one and prepare for an attack. There is nothing clunky about being able to hold LMB.

3. The only problem "Chivalry" had with charged sprinting attacks for example, which is a combat stance, was that the server couldn't handle it and that animations weren't synchronized properly.

4. Another way of handling blocks is to restrict the block/parry box instead of just turning it into a momentary bubble of invincibility.

1. I agree with this. Getting bonus damage to your attack rewards your ability to attack with proper timing, momentum, footwork and appropriately represents your attempt at being on the offensive. Meanwhile, losing out damage due to your stepping away or swinging at a bad angle can be a trade off for attacking whilst defensively moving away from your target. This may encourage players to be more aggressive, which sounds a lot more fun to me.

2. I'm pretty biased against this whole Chivalry-inspired drag-accel system (admittedly a Mount&Blade fan). Dragging just seems like an inferior version of holding LMB to just "chamber" your attack before releasing (Mordhau simply uses "chamber" to refer to "chamber blocking"; I'm used to using "chamber" referring to the act of holding your attack https://mountandblade.fandom.com/wiki/Chamber_block). Dragging only works in games like Mordhau because the combat is slow as molasses and parrying has a cooldown.

3. Still feel weird about stances. Bannerlord has them, but I still haven't gotten used to it. Kingdom Come: Deliverance also has them but they felt really clunky at first.

4. Held blocks would be strong in Mordhau's current system. I agree about reducing the block/parry box, but that wouldn't be enough. I feel that speeding up all attack animations is required for offensive gameplay to compete with held blocks.

These suggestions are based on my opinions and they're arguably selfish changes that suit my taste and not most peeps here. I figured my two cents could help. Although Chiv/Mord are very popular multiplayer "slashers" with robust combat systems, there are other games, like M&B Warband, KC: Deliverance, and For Honor(to an extent), that offer other perspectives to how other systems simulating swordplay are fun and engaging in their own ways.

Also, about realism. If players/devs don't care about realism in Mordhau, tHeN cAn We GeT fEmAle ChArAcTeRs??
Jokes aside, realism in terms of swordplay can definitely help with developing combat. For example, chamber blocks, though seemingly useless in Mordhau's slow combat, are not unlike Mastercuts (Meisterhau) in German fencing, in that it is an attack that also parries/blocks an incoming strike. Heck, maybe make mastercuts an actual thing by turning clashing into a rock-paper-scissors scenario where the winning weapon's attack goes through. Devs don't have to aim at being realistic, but I'm sure they can still find inspiration from realism.

1.) Both sweet spot and momentum damage is an in-joke in the community because it would kill swing manipulation as a concept and reduce the skill ceiling drastically. The game would devolve into endless stamina wars because you can't actually out-play anyone.

2.) Making drags clunky to execute would make them useless. Right now accels are practically the be all and end all for a number of reasons and drags don't need to be made worse.

3.) Vague stance ideas have been proposed in the past and they always lack detailed information as to how they would work, but it always ends up with a "no" because it's an unnecessary clunky balance nightmare.

4.) Held block has always been incredibly strong and it absolutely does not need to be added to all weapons. This is the #1 reason why fights in Chiv II devolve into stamina wars even at higher skill levels. It's a garbage idea.

If you don't think the old held block for shields was broken you're categorically wrong. You could avoid any and all swing manipulation. Only recently have shields been made less broken OP because now they're actually vulnerable to kicks, because before this newest patch you could block kicks - the thing which was supposed to counter them.

Watch this clip and tell me again they were underpowered: https://streamable.com/b3tm18

The game isn't and shouldn't be aiming to be more realistic. That was never the devs intention and never will be, thankfully. It should be aiming to cut bandaid mechanics, lower the skill floor so it has any amount of new player retention by removing garbage like chambers and updating the tutorial, increase release times globally ... etc.

Thanks killslim.

1. Achieving more damage by executing quicker swings doesn't lower the skill ceiling, and it doesn't make the game less fun. Watching your stamina more closely also doesn't make the game more bland for me.

2. Nobody proposed for a lengthy animation, but rather the option to have one and prepare for an attack. There is nothing clunky about being able to hold LMB.

3. The only problem "Chivalry" had with charged sprinting attacks for example, which is a combat stance, was that the server couldn't handle it and that animations weren't synchronized properly.

4. Another way of handling blocks is to restrict the block/parry box instead of just turning it into a momentary bubble of invincibility.

Thanks self-reliant battle monk.

[BigJ]

1. How does gimping a portion of the swing manip not lower the skill ceiling or make said part irrelevant to the rest of the game?

2.Chiv 2, check how well heavt attacks work there snd how goog they look.

3. So you wanna be 1 shot by even more weapond because you were riposting another enemy too late for a double parry? Fun!

4. There are already limitations to it, you can jump stab to clip the active parry and the passive parry boxes.

[Kebbie the Juicy]

1. Adding a sweet-spot mechanic, I'd argue, would only raise the skill ceiling, as it rewards players for attacking with intent + precision. Skilled players who give good thought and execution to their attack are rewarded bonus damage against those who should have defended against such a threatening attack. From the way I see it, skilled players would be consistently pulling off sweet-spot attacks to the point that they would have to start doing other things to get their attacks in if their opponent is skilled and expecting it. I don't know maybe... a sour-spot attack??? Sour-spots should not be as gimped or would not be as irrelevant as you'd think (It doesn't even have to be a sour-spot damage, could just be base damage). Yes, it'd suck if drags do less damage (tbh it makes sense to me), but devs could still make non-sweet-spot attacks cause flinching so that a retreating player would still be encouraged to attack despite the "lower" damage so that he may turn the tides. Or, as in the previous case earlier, a player can make a non-sweet-spot attack to sneak in a hit against another skilled player. It's a trade-off to try be defensive or sneaky whilst attacking at the same time. All of this gives skilled players more options to master, and more options just means the skill ceiling can go higher.

2. I haven't played Chiv II, but I played a lot of mountain blade. Holding LMB to hold my attacks looked pretty good and non-clunky to me.

3. Don't what you're talking about here but I assume it's related to what Self-Reliant Battle Monk said about Chiv and stances, which I haven't played. (I just copypasta'd Self-Reliant Battle Monk's post in response to your earlier post, which was a literal copy of killslim's post, because I thought it was funny). About being 1-shotted while riposting... isn't that already Mordhau? I've had my fair share of being 1-shotted as well as 1-shotting others while they're in riposte, and I swear most of those kills was just me blindly swinging with a war axe. It's pretty fun, but it's like swinging at a sitting duck.

4. Jump stab is pretty neat. I just want stronger defensive options while still giving attacks ways to get through, like speeding up attack animations.

Thank you for actually replying, even though it's actually Self-Reliant Battle Monk's post that you're replying to.

Now, if you would kindly give your thoughts and opinions on my points in my earlier post, that would be wonderful.

[BigJ]

BarrothMuud님이 먼저 게시:

1. Adding a sweet-spot mechanic, I'd argue, would only raise the skill ceiling, as it rewards players for attacking with intent + precision. Skilled players who give good thought and execution to their attack are rewarded bonus damage against those who should have defended against such a threatening attack. From the way I see it, skilled players would be consistently pulling off sweet-spot attacks to the point that they would have to start doing other things to get their attacks in if their opponent is skilled and expecting it. I don't know maybe... a sour-spot attack??? Sour-spots should not be as gimped or would not be as irrelevant as you'd think (It doesn't even have to be a sour-spot damage, could just be base damage). Yes, it'd suck if drags do less damage (tbh it makes sense to me), but devs could still make non-sweet-spot attacks cause flinching so that a retreating player would still be encouraged to attack despite the "lower" damage so that he may turn the tides. Or, as in the previous case earlier, a player can make a non-sweet-spot attack to sneak in a hit against another skilled player. It's a trade-off to try be defensive or sneaky whilst attacking at the same time. All of this gives skilled players more options to master, and more options just means the skill ceiling can go higher.

2. I haven't played Chiv II, but I played a lot of mountain blade. Holding LMB to hold my attacks looked pretty good and non-clunky to me.

3. Don't what you're talking about here but I assume it's related to what Self-Reliant Battle Monk said about Chiv and stances, which I haven't played. (I just copypasta'd Self-Reliant Battle Monk's post in response to your earlier post, which was a literal copy of killslim's post, because I thought it was funny). About being 1-shotted while riposting... isn't that already Mordhau? I've had my fair share of being 1-shotted as well as 1-shotting others while they're in riposte, and I swear most of those kills was just me blindly swinging with a war axe. It's pretty fun, but it's like swinging at a sitting duck.

4. Jump stab is pretty neat. I just want stronger defensive options while still giving attacks ways to get through, like speeding up attack animations.

Thank you for actually replying, even though it's actually Self-Reliant Battle Monk's post that you're replying to.

Now, if you would kindly give your thoughts and opinions on my points in my earlier post, that would be wonderful.

1. How? No one would block outside of the sweet spot, as is the combat is perfect, you require skill to pull off s decent drag or accel. With a sweet spot all you do is introduce inconsistency into the game combined with dumb tactics seen in bannerlord duels like running into swings. I also don't get how an attack that gives you iniciative can be defensive at all.
2. Holding block, works in bannerlord because you require direction otherwise it just doesn't, chiv 2 held block is borderline useless against anyone competent and limits hiw fun a shield wall is.
3. 1 shots only happen against maul or low armor, as it should be.
4. Why would you want to buff defense? Seriusly, why?

[Jedi]

KillSlim님이 먼저 게시:

This is a really bad set of ideas.

In your opinion :D.

KillSlim님이 먼저 게시:

This is a really bad set of ideas.

1.) Both sweet spot and momentum damage is an in-joke in the community because it would kill swing manipulation as a concept and reduce the skill ceiling drastically. The game would devolve into endless stamina wars because you can't actually out-play anyone.

a) Momentum damage/acceleration gives a lot of different possibilities to perform other attack, morphs, chambers. Combined with combat stance dodge (press Shift) or step-by-step footwork (hold space), would be completely new experience. It would actually increase skill ceiling as you call it. I will describe combat stance and morphs in next post.

b) You described drags and accels as something superior in medieval combat game. Something that everyone admire and willing to play. In reality both Chivalry and now Mordhau died because most people refuse to play this trololo clunky movement animation spam combat.

c) Some people claim that this combat system would be endless stamina war like it is something completely bad in high level duels. It's not superb when you kill your enemy with 2,3 hits. In reality Chivalry and Mordhau combat pulls and accels system was created to differ small portion of players from the rest in a very poor, dull manner.

KillSlim님이 먼저 게시:

2.) Making drags clunky to execute would make them useless. Right now accels are practically the be all and end all for a number of reasons and drags don't need to be made worse.

Again, drags and accels in the current form are not something superior. It's 10 years old re-cheated chop with new graphics that people refuse to play. In my and many other people opinion those camera spam movement should be gone in a current form.

KillSlim님이 먼저 게시:

3.) Vague stance ideas have been proposed in the past and they always lack detailed information as to how they would work, but it always ends up with a "no" because it's an unnecessary clunky balance nightmare.

I will try to describe it in detail in further posts. Quick overview:

- Character moving slower on bend legs, as simple as everyone can imagine,

- When holding attack button to prepare it it's possible to rotate camera,

- When releasing attack camera is locked to narrow window with all previously described possibilities,
- Pressing e.g. Shift will perform dodge,

- Holding Space while performing attack could allow special step-by-step footwork which is typical for e.g. boxing etc. different than normal move.

Current swinging while full sprint in full plate armor is something poor, silly simply basic, even idiotic.

KillSlim님이 먼저 게시:

4.) Held block has always been incredibly strong and it absolutely does not need to be added to all weapons. This is the #1 reason why fights in Chiv II devolve into stamina wars even at higher skill levels. It's a garbage idea.

That's not true. There as many possibilities to make something as natural as holding block by:

- draining stamina when holding block (unlimited possibility of adjustment),

- step decreasing stamina when parrying attack (unlimited possibility of adjustment),

- directional block - this would increase skill level and made it interesting,

- When holding block it can be moved into attack direction to perform as called "perfect parry".

KillSlim님이 먼저 게시:

If you don't think the old held block for shields was broken you're categorically wrong. You could avoid any and all swing manipulation. Only recently have shields been made less broken OP because now they're actually vulnerable to kicks, because before this newest patch you could block kicks - the thing which was supposed to counter them.

Watch this clip and tell me again they were underpowered: https://streamable.com/b3tm18

No I don't think that way and you know why? Devs never tried to drain stamina while holding block, that's why this video is not relevant at all. Blocking kick was their another bad decision.

There are 2 facts about holding block also with shield:

- It's natural, normal, realistic approach to protect yourself from enemy attack. Lack of idea for implementation doesn't prove the fact that it shouldn't be implemented in the game.

- Shield block was removed from Mordhau because sweaty veterans were crying they are not enough superior over weaker players especially in 1 vs multiple combat, where shield should be naturally better.

KillSlim님이 먼저 게시:

The game isn't and shouldn't be aiming to be more realistic. That was never the devs intention and never will be, thankfully. It should be aiming to cut bandaid mechanics, lower the skill floor so it has any amount of new player retention by removing garbage like chambers and updating the tutorial, increase release times globally ... etc.

This game could be aiming to be realistic, instead it's trololo movement crap fest :D. Changes that I describe would allow: (Falange tactic, turtle tactic, shield wall), especially during big battles.

Lowering the skill level is basically devs surrender because instead of making something better, something more advanced, they as always prefer "minimum effort, maximum profit" to bring more people in.

Guess what, players don't like combat in the current form: https://steamcharts.com/app/629760

KillSlim님이 먼저 게시:

RememberScriptarius님이 먼저 게시:

I feel the people providing suggestions in this thread are doing more than the devs did last update.

How are some bad ideas in any way valuable compared to actual dev work?

You don't even trying to say "in my opinion". You already made yourself someone with a better opinion than the others. True is, Mordhau as poor copy/paste of Chivalry is dying.... When reading my posts do you still claim like they claimed before and till today it's because people are stupid? :D

[Kebbie the Juicy]

BHB | BigJ님이 먼저 게시:

1. How? No one would block outside of the sweet spot, as is the combat is perfect, you require skill to pull off s decent drag or accel. With a sweet spot all you do is introduce inconsistency into the game combined with dumb tactics seen in bannerlord duels like running into swings. I also don't get how an attack that gives you iniciative can be defensive at all.
2. Holding block, works in bannerlord because you require direction otherwise it just doesn't, chiv 2 held block is borderline useless against anyone competent and limits hiw fun a shield wall is.
3. 1 shots only happen against maul or low armor, as it should be.
4. Why would you want to buff defense? Seriusly, why?

1. I mentioned that non-sweet attacks could still be made to cause flinching. So, there'd still be a point to blocking/parrying such attacks or else a player may be combo'd to death. This is so as to eliminate the possibility of players taking advantage of the non-sweet portion by running into swings, such as in your Bannerlord example. Also, attacking while retreating in order to gain initiative makes sense and is already a good option in Mordhau. Attacking while retreating can cause a clash, give an option to chamber-block, or sneak a hit in against an aggressor if they weren't expecting it. About how it requires skill to drag/accel, yes it does in a game like Mordhau where attacks are as slow as how ol' Hollywood thinks Medieval sword-fighting is with heavy af armor and 20lbs+ swords.
2. Yes, a held block works in bannerlord because of directional blocking, but also because attacks are much faster in that game. It also worked too well in Mordhau that devs removed it's too good in a slow combat system. Wasn't someone earlier in the thread complaining that held block was too good in Chiv II that high-level became "stamina wars" of attrition? That doesn't sound like held block is useless at all, quite the opposite.
3. Yes, this makes sense. I want high-tier armors to actually do their job.
4. Why would I want to buff defense? Because that would have to happen as well if my main, #1, top-of-the-list-of-features change is implemented into Mordhau: make all attack animations significantly faster. Let's talk about Mordhau's combat as separate 3 parts: Attack, Defense, and Ranged. As of now, Mordhau's Attack is seriously underpowered, and that is because of it's speed. It's so slow that the other 2 parts, Defense and Ranged, have to be significantly nerfed to be fair to Attack. Defense is restricted with a cooldown parry, a clunky shieldwall state in place of held block, and an unfeintable riposte, all of which don't feel like natural restrictions gameplay-wise; kinda like placing invisible barriers in a platformer. This is of course to make sure people can't just keep turtling. Ranged is also nerfed to kingdom come due to both Attack and Defense being underpowered as projectiles are made slow enough to react to, shots do not interrupt melee attacks, and range damage isn't strong. This makes players forgoe the shield for a two-hander because Ranged isn't much of a threat. All of these nerfs are placed on Defense and Ranged because Attack in it's current state cannot keep up with the other 2 parts if they were unnerfed.

In my honest opinion, if Attack was made faster and Defense & Ranged weren't nerfed, I feel like Mordhau would be much more adrenaline-inducing fun. Again, these changes I suggest are based on my preferences, and I am admittedly bias against how Chiv/Mord does drags and accels.

[KillSlim]

Jedi님이 먼저 게시:

a) Momentum damage/acceleration gives a lot of different possibilities to perform other attack, morphs, chambers. Combined with combat stance dodge (press Shift) or step-by-step footwork (hold space), would be completely new experience. It would actually increase skill ceiling as you call it. I will describe combat stance and morphs in next post.

b) You described drags and accels as something superior in medieval combat game. Something that everyone admire and willing to play. In reality both Chivalry and now Mordhau died because most people refuse to play this trololo clunky movement animation spam combat.

No it doesn't because other games like M&B have this and the detriments to the system are plain as day. Like BigJ pointed out, you see dumb tactics evolve like people running into swings because then they avoid the sweet spot and incur minimum damage. It's incredibly stupid.

Console game-tier movement like button dodging would reduce skill involved in movement and make combat awful. We already have dodge perk, and Chiv II has dodge on all players, higher skilled gameplay involving dodge makes players warp around like goblins. It's terrible. We've already seen it so we can categorically label it as trash.

Regarding population of Chiv II or Mordhau, you're either oblivious or lying. Chiv II practically died because it launched in a sorry state. Incredibly buggy, a broken play with friends system, broken server browser, combat was ridden with what made most Chiv I players quit.

Mordhau's population has been declining because of a lack of content. Patch cycles are incredibly slow, new maps are rare additions, new gamemodes are unheard of now. New weapons these days are scarce, although mainly for good reasons.

If you're using reddit-tier terms like " trololo clunky movement animation spam combat" I'm gonna say you're projecting. You left because you don't know how to play, reached your personal skill ceiling, and quit.

Jedi님이 먼저 게시:

c) Some people claim that this combat system would be endless stamina war like it is something completely bad in high level duels. It's not superb when you kill your enemy with 2,3 hits. In reality Chivalry and Mordhau combat pulls and accels system was created to differ small portion of players from the rest in a very poor, dull manner.

You mean separate good players from bad ones in the context of this game and genre?

Jedi님이 먼저 게시:

Again, drags and accels in the current form are not something superior. It's 10 years old re-cheated chop with new graphics that people refuse to play. In my and many other people opinion those camera spam movement should be gone in a current form.

Skill issue. Based on your opinion that you think momentum would be a good idea, we can safely discard your opinion and anyone like-minded. "Camera spam movement" is such a stupid term I've actually never seen it before and I genuinely don't know what you mean.

Jedi님이 먼저 게시:

I will try to describe it in detail in further posts. Quick overview:

- Character moving slower on bend legs, as simple as everyone can imagine,

- When holding attack button to prepare it it's possible to rotate camera,

- When releasing attack camera is locked to narrow window with all previously described possibilities,
- Pressing e.g. Shift will perform dodge,

- Holding Space while performing attack could allow special step-by-step footwork which is typical for e.g. boxing etc. different than normal move.

Current swinging while full sprint in full plate armor is something poor, silly simply basic, even idiotic.

Stop trying to insert realism into a game like this because it doesn't fit at all. This sounds like you want to turn the game into KCD--which has atrocious combat--mixed with For Honor, and it just won't work in a multiplayer setting. Attacks with locked cameras deletes ALL manipulation and I've already talked about dodge.

Jedi님이 먼저 게시:

That's not true. There as many possibilities to make something as natural as holding block by:

- draining stamina when holding block (unlimited possibility of adjustment),

- step decreasing stamina when parrying attack (unlimited possibility of adjustment),

- directional block - this would increase skill level and made it interesting,

- When holding block it can be moved into attack direction to perform as called "perfect parry".

More hackneyed garbage ideas from For Honor that's non-transferable. This is more garbage based on garbage ... none of this would work. Directional block doesn't work for Mordhau unless you copypaste the rest of M&B or whatever game you're cloning your ideas from.

Jedi님이 먼저 게시:

No I don't think that way and you know why? Devs never tried to drain stamina while holding block, that's why this video is not relevant at all. Blocking kick was their another bad decision.

There are 2 facts about holding block also with shield:

- It's natural, normal, realistic approach to protect yourself from enemy attack. Lack of idea for implementation doesn't prove the fact that it shouldn't be implemented in the game.

- Shield block was removed from Mordhau because sweaty veterans were crying they are not enough superior over weaker players especially in 1 vs multiple combat, where shield should be naturally better.

Draining stamina on block still ignores the wider parry window shields have. Draining stamina doesn't solve them ignoring all swing manipulation, even if for a limited time. It's like temporary immunity to the game, it's garbage.

For the 2nd time, stop trying to insert or justify bad ideas because "it's realistic".

"sweaty veterans" good grief. Old shield held block ignored all swing manipulation and made footwork less relevant ... you could basically ignore the vast majority of the game mechanics. But it's obvious why you want such a system back based on what you've said so far.

Jedi님이 먼저 게시:

This game could be aiming to be realistic, instead it's trololo movement crap fest :D. Changes that I describe would allow: (Falange tactic, turtle tactic, shield wall), especially during big battles.

Lowering the skill level is basically devs surrender because instead of making something better, something more advanced, they as always prefer "minimum effort, maximum profit" to bring more people in.

Guess what, players don't like combat in the current form: https://steamcharts.com/app/629760

Thankfully it won't ever be realistic and will continue to do so. I've already gone over why the population is declining and you need to stop outright lying about this. If you were right about nobody wanting to play this game in it's current form then Mordhau wouldn't have sold as many copies and would never have had as many players as it did previously, because the core itself has barely changed at all.

Jedi님이 먼저 게시:

You don't even trying to say "in my opinion". You already made yourself someone with a better opinion than the others. True is, Mordhau as poor copy/paste of Chivalry is dying.... When reading my posts do you still claim like they claimed before and till today it's because people are stupid? :D

Yep. These ideas are objectively trash. I can say they're trash because you can see them implemented in games like For Honor, KCD, Chiv II, and Mord, and can determine their qualities. Your ideas are;

-Non-transferable mechanics from M&B and For Honor that somehow aim for realism(?). Seriously they're just copy/pasted For Honor mechanics. Shall I paste some For Honor player numbers for you?
-Movement and footwork is nerfed into the soil thanks to a reliance on hotkey dodging which is objectively trash in Mordhau and Chiv II.
-Momentum damage kills all swing manipulation and creates stupid counter mechanics to avoid the sweet spot like you see in M&B.

On top of this garbage you retain a sourness towards good players (or, players better than you), and you're willing to try and lie to players with an excess of 1500 hours about things you know nothing about. Your ideas are all projections based on a low personal skill ceiling. You got trashed, didn't understand how, and you want the game changed to something feel is better - despite your ideas ironically being ripped straight from a game where the playerbase dropped faster than Mordhau's.

https://www.githyp.com/for-honor-has-now-lost-95-of-its-playerbase-worse-than-the-division-1-year-ago/

[BigJ]

BarrothMuud님이 먼저 게시:

BHB | BigJ님이 먼저 게시:

1. How? No one would block outside of the sweet spot, as is the combat is perfect, you require skill to pull off s decent drag or accel. With a sweet spot all you do is introduce inconsistency into the game combined with dumb tactics seen in bannerlord duels like running into swings. I also don't get how an attack that gives you iniciative can be defensive at all.
2. Holding block, works in bannerlord because you require direction otherwise it just doesn't, chiv 2 held block is borderline useless against anyone competent and limits hiw fun a shield wall is.
3. 1 shots only happen against maul or low armor, as it should be.
4. Why would you want to buff defense? Seriusly, why?

1. I mentioned that non-sweet attacks could still be made to cause flinching. So, there'd still be a point to blocking/parrying such attacks or else a player may be combo'd to death. This is so as to eliminate the possibility of players taking advantage of the non-sweet portion by running into swings, such as in your Bannerlord example. Also, attacking while retreating in order to gain initiative makes sense and is already a good option in Mordhau. Attacking while retreating can cause a clash, give an option to chamber-block, or sneak a hit in against an aggressor if they weren't expecting it. About how it requires skill to drag/accel, yes it does in a game like Mordhau where attacks are as slow as how ol' Hollywood thinks Medieval sword-fighting is with heavy af armor and 20lbs+ swords.
2. Yes, a held block works in bannerlord because of directional blocking, but also because attacks are much faster in that game. It also worked too well in Mordhau that devs removed it's too good in a slow combat system. Wasn't someone earlier in the thread complaining that held block was too good in Chiv II that high-level became "stamina wars" of attrition? That doesn't sound like held block is useless at all, quite the opposite.
3. Yes, this makes sense. I want high-tier armors to actually do their job.
4. Why would I want to buff defense? Because that would have to happen as well if my main, #1, top-of-the-list-of-features change is implemented into Mordhau: make all attack animations significantly faster. Let's talk about Mordhau's combat as separate 3 parts: Attack, Defense, and Ranged. As of now, Mordhau's Attack is seriously underpowered, and that is because of it's speed. It's so slow that the other 2 parts, Defense and Ranged, have to be significantly nerfed to be fair to Attack. Defense is restricted with a cooldown parry, a clunky shieldwall state in place of held block, and an unfeintable riposte, all of which don't feel like natural restrictions gameplay-wise; kinda like placing invisible barriers in a platformer. This is of course to make sure people can't just keep turtling. Ranged is also nerfed to kingdom come due to both Attack and Defense being underpowered as projectiles are made slow enough to react to, shots do not interrupt melee attacks, and range damage isn't strong. This makes players forgoe the shield for a two-hander because Ranged isn't much of a threat. All of these nerfs are placed on Defense and Ranged because Attack in it's current state cannot keep up with the other 2 parts if they were unnerfed.

In my honest opinion, if Attack was made faster and Defense & Ranged weren't nerfed, I feel like Mordhau would be much more adrenaline-inducing fun. Again, these changes I suggest are based on my preferences, and I am admittedly bias against how Chiv/Mord does drags and accels.

1. SO basicly relegated to almost useless, yeah no, why do you even want to change swing manip as is in the first place? Why would you attack while retreating and encourage it, do you know how frustrating that would for everyone involved, no one attacks while retreating, you fall back, gamble kick. If you don't hold w+shift you lack lunge which will 100% ♥♥♥♥ you. Things are slow till you get acceled, sure.
2. Are you kidding me, held block was removed because it negated feints, swing manipulation and morphs. The 3 main forms of offense with what setback? Bit less stamina which is irrelevant. They still have held block although now it takes a bit to lift it and you can no longer kick from it so you aren't immune to kicks. Chiv 2 COUNTERS are the only reason u got stamina war, held block drains so quick you get around 2 seconds without getting hit before you are disarmed.
3. They do though. T2/T3 have similar stats but the amount of weapons that 2htk or 1 shot you in t1 and 0 is huge.
4.Why change everything again? In combat 2.0 coming up they are already buffing offense, buffing defense would be counter-productive. You can make any weapon, with any attack a threat, what are you on about? Underhands? Big threat with look up accels. Hell one of the slowest weapons in the game, estar is meta for a reason, floaty drags, decent accels and stamina game. Ranged is fine as is, outside of the MG42 that is ballista.
How? Why would you be able to feint off a riposte? You already got your swing manip, can always late riposte to feint to. Cooldown parry makes sense gameplay wise, specially with how things are NOW, now you want to buff range? Range is a threat, people don't go for shields because, most TO players do not get kills with 1handed weapons due to bad footwork and because you can just parry arrows.

[Barack Obama]

I definitely agree on a damage modifier for swing speed. make drags hit for less damage as it seems more common to block too early rather than too late, which would be a good balance for that fighting style.

holding a block would need to consume a lot of stamina imo to be balanced

[BigJ]

Barack Obama님이 먼저 게시:

I definitely agree on a damage modifier for swing speed. make drags hit for less damage as it seems more common to block too early rather than too late, which would be a good balance for that fighting style.

holding a block would need to consume a lot of stamina imo to be balanced

Will never understand this. Why do you want to discourage the weakest offende, drags? When accels are so much better.

[Barack Obama]

BHB | BigJ님이 먼저 게시:

Barack Obama님이 먼저 게시:

I definitely agree on a damage modifier for swing speed. make drags hit for less damage as it seems more common to block too early rather than too late, which would be a good balance for that fighting style.

holding a block would need to consume a lot of stamina imo to be balanced

Will never understand this. Why do you want to discourage the weakest offende, drags? When accels are so much better.

like I said, it seems more common to block too early rather than too late. the main people I see dominating the scoreboard use drags to land their hits at the very last second they're able. I forget exactly how the damage model in this game works, but accels can be balanced by reducing the damage for a hit that's too premature, basically a damage bell curve centered on proper distance and swing progression. mount and blade has a pretty solid system going for it that the mordhau devs could take note from

[Punished Jeremy]

BHB | BigJ님이 먼저 게시:

Barack Obama님이 먼저 게시:

I definitely agree on a damage modifier for swing speed. make drags hit for less damage as it seems more common to block too early rather than too late, which would be a good balance for that fighting style.

holding a block would need to consume a lot of stamina imo to be balanced

Will never understand this. Why do you want to discourage the weakest offende, drags? When accels are so much better.

Why would you want to balance the weakest offense? To give people a reason to use it. To make it not so weak. To add more variety and complexity to the game.

Same thing with reducing damage on accels. It’s about guiding the meta to be in a better place, that doesn’t see most “good” players relying on the same busted looking tactic