Why are the Messer animations so janky

[Myta]

I was playing with a friend late last night and have never run into a player using a Messer the way he was,I suspected he might be cheating but after spectating him he just throws his camera around because moving left and right has the same animation as the beginning of a swing when using 1 handed mode,it's basically impossible to read when done correctly,after realizing exactly what was going on I attempted to make a similar class but eventually just gave up because it feels cheap,animation abusing isn't a mechanic,it doesn't take skill,Feinting,Dragging,Morphing and Acceling take skill and timing,moving your camera around to abuse an animation isn't fun

Edit: I also feel like the Weapon's Model doesn't reflect it's hitbox,I often feel like I've dodged far out of it ranged to the point where I see the blade infront of me visually ending a foot infront of my character and still gets confirmed, where I have this issue with very few other weapons,with the exception of Spear and Halberd

[sparrowbird611]

Good question. I've used the messer, and noticed some of the things you're talking about. The developers probably already know about it though, so they'll probably fix it eventually.

[Myta]

Originally posted by sparrowbird611:

Good question. I've used the messer, and noticed some of the things you're talking about. The developers probably already know about it though, so they'll probably fix it eventually.

Good it's not just me then,because you can make it look like you swing,the player either gambles or parries,but it's a fake not a feint,not a morph or a swing,something you're able to do without punish since it's simply a broken animation not an actual combat tactic,it's virtually unpunishable

[Zegers]

Originally posted by Mytalisis:

Originally posted by sparrowbird611:

Good question. I've used the messer, and noticed some of the things you're talking about. The developers probably already know about it though, so they'll probably fix it eventually.

Good it's not just me then,because you can make it look like you swing,the player either gambles or parries,but it's a fake not a feint,not a morph or a swing,something you're able to do without punish since it's simply a broken animation not an actual combat tactic,it's virtually unpunishable

Sounds to me like you're falling for a guy that's just moving has camera lmao. How is it unpunishable? If he's "faking" you by just moving left or right to make it look like the 1-handed strike windup, go for a chamber. If he faked, he'll be forced to parry. If he attacked, you chamber hit him. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't even know how you can mistake the idle animation and some camera movement for an actual windup lmao.

Falling for some silly camera movement is not an exploit. Play more, get better at reading animations.

[Myta]

Originally posted by Zegers:

Originally posted by Mytalisis:

Good it's not just me then,because you can make it look like you swing,the player either gambles or parries,but it's a fake not a feint,not a morph or a swing,something you're able to do without punish since it's simply a broken animation not an actual combat tactic,it's virtually unpunishable

Sounds to me like you're falling for a guy that's just moving has camera lmao. How is it unpunishable? If he's "faking" you by just moving left or right to make it look like the 1-handed strike windup, go for a chamber. If he faked, he'll be forced to parry. If he attacked, you chamber hit him. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't even know how you can mistake the idle animation and some camera movement for an actual windup lmao.

Falling for some silly camera movement is not an exploit. Play more, get better at reading animations.

there's not initiative ,so there's technically no way to punish it,you could strike first assuming you read it as a strike but that's just gambling,if you block/parry you get hit because you committed to a fake,if he strikes or feints there's very little to do here,I've fought with very very experienced players,I have friends who are Level 100+,and not just 1 multiple I try to learn from the best but I can say with certainty the Messer is the hardest to read weapon in the game,and my friends do seem to agree

[Zegers]

Originally posted by Mytalisis:

Originally posted by Zegers:

Sounds to me like you're falling for a guy that's just moving has camera lmao. How is it unpunishable? If he's "faking" you by just moving left or right to make it look like the 1-handed strike windup, go for a chamber. If he faked, he'll be forced to parry. If he attacked, you chamber hit him. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't even know how you can mistake the idle animation and some camera movement for an actual windup lmao.

Falling for some silly camera movement is not an exploit. Play more, get better at reading animations.

there's not initiative ,so there's technically no way to punish it,you could strike first assuming you read it as a strike but that's just gambling,if you block/parry you get hit because you committed to a fake,if he strikes or feints there's very little to do here,I've fought with very very experienced players,I have friends who are Level 100+,and not just 1 multiple I try to learn from the best but I can say with certainty the Messer is the hardest to read weapon in the game,and my friends do seem to agree

Okay, initiative has nothing to do with this scenario. If he is "faking" you with simple camera movement and you read it as a 1-handed Messer strike coming at you, go for the chamber attempt. This immediately gives you the initiative since he isn't attacking. Once again, you either force him to parry or if it wasn't a fake, you get a chamber.

The Messer, as is the same with pretty much every sword weapon in the game, has simple and easy to read animations. If you want a weapon that is actually difficult to read, you'd want to take a look at the Pole Axe, as the entirety of the EU competitive scene agrees. These same EU players consistently say the Messer is ♥♥♥♥ and have continued to say that even after the buffs. Hell, the weapon was even buffed in the first place because it was so terrible against genuinely good players.

[Myta]

Originally posted by Zegers:

Originally posted by Mytalisis:

there's not initiative ,so there's technically no way to punish it,you could strike first assuming you read it as a strike but that's just gambling,if you block/parry you get hit because you committed to a fake,if he strikes or feints there's very little to do here,I've fought with very very experienced players,I have friends who are Level 100+,and not just 1 multiple I try to learn from the best but I can say with certainty the Messer is the hardest to read weapon in the game,and my friends do seem to agree

Okay, initiative has nothing to do with this scenario. If he is "faking" you with simple camera movement and you read it as a 1-handed Messer strike coming at you, go for the chamber attempt. This immediately gives you the initiative since he isn't attacking. Once again, you either force him to parry or if it wasn't a fake, you get a chamber.

The Messer, as is the same with pretty much every sword weapon in the game, has simple and easy to read animations. If you want a weapon that is actually difficult to read, you'd want to take a look at the Pole Axe, as the entirety of the EU competitive scene agrees. These same EU players consistently say the Messer is ♥♥♥♥ and have continued to say that even after the buffs. Hell, the weapon was even buffed in the first place because it was so terrible against genuinely good players.

Well now you're purposing that animations in this game are hard to deal with and you're previous response of "just get better at reading the animations" comes into play here,I've never had any real issue with Pole Axe and even players who Feint and Morph are often slow enough to be punished by most all the weapons I use,however this seems to be a larger issue of the animations being too similar with standard camera movements to actual striking animations,so from both our anecdotal experiences we can come to the same conclusion,either A. The Weapons in the game can too easily mimic striking animations with movement manipulation OR B. Everyone just needs to get better at reading animations

[Zegers]

Originally posted by Mytalisis:

Originally posted by Zegers:

Okay, initiative has nothing to do with this scenario. If he is "faking" you with simple camera movement and you read it as a 1-handed Messer strike coming at you, go for the chamber attempt. This immediately gives you the initiative since he isn't attacking. Once again, you either force him to parry or if it wasn't a fake, you get a chamber.

The Messer, as is the same with pretty much every sword weapon in the game, has simple and easy to read animations. If you want a weapon that is actually difficult to read, you'd want to take a look at the Pole Axe, as the entirety of the EU competitive scene agrees. These same EU players consistently say the Messer is ♥♥♥♥ and have continued to say that even after the buffs. Hell, the weapon was even buffed in the first place because it was so terrible against genuinely good players.

Well now you're purposing that animations in this game are hard to deal with and you're previous response of "just get better at reading the animations" comes into play here,I've never had any real issue with Pole Axe and even players who Feint and Morph are often slow enough to be punished by most all the weapons I use,however this seems to be a larger issue of the animations being too similar with standard camera movements to actual striking animations,so from both our anecdotal experiences we can come to the same conclusion,either A. The Weapons in the game can too easily mimic striking animations with movement manipulation OR B. Everyone just needs to get better at reading animations

I said the Pole Axe was difficult to read, I didn't say it was unreadable and exploitive. Yes, get better at reading is the solution here, rather than complaining about it on the Steam forums. Your complaint is literally that some guy moved his camera and it looks like an attack when it reality it is nothing.

I'm also curious are you talking about someone with the Messer in normal mode moving the camera left or right and it looking like the alt mode strike animations? Because if I remember correctly the alt mode idle animation is held at the side and there's no way camera movement could be used to genuinely fool anyone with eyes. Are you telling me that you are falling for a fake for an animation that can't even be used in the mode that weapon is currently being used in? You gave very little specifics.

[Myta]

Originally posted by Zegers:

Originally posted by Mytalisis:

Well now you're purposing that animations in this game are hard to deal with and you're previous response of "just get better at reading the animations" comes into play here,I've never had any real issue with Pole Axe and even players who Feint and Morph are often slow enough to be punished by most all the weapons I use,however this seems to be a larger issue of the animations being too similar with standard camera movements to actual striking animations,so from both our anecdotal experiences we can come to the same conclusion,either A. The Weapons in the game can too easily mimic striking animations with movement manipulation OR B. Everyone just needs to get better at reading animations

I said the Pole Axe was difficult to read, I didn't say it was unreadable and exploitive. Yes, get better at reading is the solution here, rather than complaining about it on the Steam forums. Your complaint is literally that some guy moved his camera and it looks like an attack when it reality it is nothing.

I'm also curious are you talking about someone with the Messer in normal mode moving the camera left or right and it looking like the alt mode strike animations? Because if I remember correctly the alt mode idle animation is held at the side and there's no way camera movement could be used to genuinely fool anyone with eyes. Are you telling me that you are falling for a fake for an animation that can't even be used in the mode that weapon is currently being used in? You gave very little specifics.

but you've also made it clear that everyone in the EU competitive scene is complaining about the Pole Axe,while seemingly no one in the United States is,so I don't understand you're point of me complaining when you're even stating even the best players in the game are complaining about some weapons,and it doesn't matter if I go into specifics here if you criticism hinges on the fact that your entire argument is "That weapon is easy to read,this weapon is harder"

[Zegers]

Originally posted by Mytalisis:

Originally posted by Zegers:

I said the Pole Axe was difficult to read, I didn't say it was unreadable and exploitive. Yes, get better at reading is the solution here, rather than complaining about it on the Steam forums. Your complaint is literally that some guy moved his camera and it looks like an attack when it reality it is nothing.

I'm also curious are you talking about someone with the Messer in normal mode moving the camera left or right and it looking like the alt mode strike animations? Because if I remember correctly the alt mode idle animation is held at the side and there's no way camera movement could be used to genuinely fool anyone with eyes. Are you telling me that you are falling for a fake for an animation that can't even be used in the mode that weapon is currently being used in? You gave very little specifics.

but you've also made it clear that everyone in the EU competitive scene is complaining about the Pole Axe,while seemingly no one in the United States is,so I don't understand you're point of me complaining when you're even stating even the best players in the game are complaining about some weapons,and it doesn't matter if I go into specifics here if you criticism hinges on the fact that your entire argument is "That weapon is easy to read,this weapon is harder"

Actually, my entire argument was summed up in my very first post. I didn't say the EU competitive scene was complaining about it, merely that they said it was hard to read it's actual animations. I was giving an actual example of something that's considered hard to read by top-tier players, not reinforcing my argument with above average friends. Not some silly anecdote "this guy move camera and me panic parry" where you complain about simple camera movement looking like an attack.

You failed to answer the question I asked in my last post. It would go a long way into making things clearer as to what you are exactly talking about. You still haven't been especially specific.

[COMP DBD 1V1]

i think its actually bugged this patch, it has some retarded extra phantom range plus the overheads come out faster than they actually should

the poke has broken hitboxes as well

[Skidee]

Yeah it feels longer than it looks. I backpeddled out of the way and I died

[Woot]

oh yes throwing your camera to feign without actually using any stamina to feign with the messer is great. totally broken and I hope they never fix it, super ez kills over and over because it's such a joke