Thellora in a new campaign

[Barbe-bleue]

I'm afraid I already know the answer.

I have this Daily Quest: Complete a new 'Witchlight' adventure or variant.
I haven't had any adventures in this campaign yet. So I have 0 favor.
If I include Thellora with 83 Rush Stacks in my formation, what will happen?

[LostSoul]

Publicado originalmente por Derpykat5:

You do know you can use speed potions and Thellora at the same time, right? Other than that, I don't understand what you're getting at here. You seem to be saying that longer runs are more conducive to potions but that then means that she isn't useful in tight loops? Which are almost always short runs? You do understand how gem farming works, right?

Without Thellora in my party:
Clearing to her favor cap for me takes roughly 15 minute with a medium haste potion. That's about as close to a perfect fit as you'll find in this game. That would also be a complete waste of a large haste potion. Whereas if I continue to my soft wall, that takes about 40 minutes on a large haste potion, achieving roughly a 25% increase in my total areas cleared in per minute compared to a medium haste potion to area 300.

So if I include Thellora in my party:
I can 'perfectly' fit a short run to Thellora's rush effect and earn fewer gems per hour than not using her at all in a longer run, and there's no point in using her in a longer runs, since it reduces the effectiveness of her rush ability to basically nothing.

It should also be noted: medium speed potions are far better used on 4j briv parties, so even in that respect, it's a waste.

[Kriogar]

What J are you @LostSoul ?

[LostSoul]

Publicado originalmente por Kriogar:

What J are you @LostSoul ?

Please clarify your question.

[Kriogar]

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

Without Thellora in my party:
Clearing to her favor cap for me takes roughly 15 minute with a medium haste potion.

I wonder if your Briv is 1J, 2J or 3J?
Also what area is this favor cap for you?

[Derpykat5]

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

Publicado originalmente por Derpykat5:

You do know you can use speed potions and Thellora at the same time, right? Other than that, I don't understand what you're getting at here. You seem to be saying that longer runs are more conducive to potions but that then means that she isn't useful in tight loops? Which are almost always short runs? You do understand how gem farming works, right?

Without Thellora in my party:
Clearing to her favor cap for me takes roughly 15 minute with a medium haste potion. That's about as close to a perfect fit as you'll find in this game. That would also be a complete waste of a large haste potion. Whereas if I continue to my soft wall, that takes about 40 minutes on a large haste potion, achieving roughly a 25% increase in my total areas cleared in per minute compared to a medium haste potion to area 300.

So if I include Thellora in my party:
I can 'perfectly' fit a short run to Thellora's rush effect and earn fewer gems per hour than not using her at all in a longer run, and there's no point in using her in a longer runs, since it reduces the effectiveness of her rush ability to basically nothing.

It should also be noted: medium speed potions are far better used on 4j briv parties, so even in that respect, it's a waste.

You aren't going to have enough potions to pop a potion every loop of a gem farm unless you have some crazy obscene gem gain.

Pushing to your softwall is also inefficient unless you are also burning fire breath pots. You want to push to your click wall, which is only ever slightly higher than the rush cap.

[Derpykat5]

Publicado originalmente por taniwhat:

Lets say you have a 100 area gem farming loop. Throw Thellora in and she won't rush in background. You COULD charge her up in background (maybe) but having her in the gem farming loop will AFAIK achieve nothing.

Even if it did, 100 areas of chargeup comes down to (I think) 10 areas max rush, So it's possibly a small gain IF she would rush in background, but it's not going to increase your average gems/day significantly.

I can't run a loop much more than 100 (too few familiars) without slowing drastically because it takes longer to click down bosses as the levels go up. So even if I could charge her up fully in background, it's still a lose because for me at max. she'll rush ~34 levels and it's faster to do 4x100. I gain more speed doing that than by using Thellora's rush.

I'm not actually complaining about that, but that's essentially why (for me) she's essentially useless except for some adventures where having a female or someone in slot 1 with her stats either makes someone available from that slot or gives other bonuses that are worthwhile on their own. I'm relatively low level so she's an O.K. tank and still worth using in some cases - just not for her speed bonus.

Background gem farming is horrendously inefficient since no speed effects other than game speed work in the background. You gem farm in the foreground, where a 10% boost to zones cleared and thus gems gained per hour is - in the context of gem gain - significant.

[Hecate]

Publicado originalmente por Derpykat5:

Pushing to your softwall is also inefficient unless you are also burning fire breath pots. You want to push to your click wall, which is only ever slightly higher than the rush cap.

It depends where you're in the game. My click wall in gem farm is around 775 in most campaigns and is probably over 1100 (~1160 mathematically) in Witchlight — but I don't get up to that in gem farm because it takes too much time to rebuild stacks and I usually reset around 850-900 ; in two scenarios, the Thellora's rush cap is really below my click wall. The rush cap in the said campaigns are 142 for Witchlight and around 90-95 in other campaigns ; I wouldn't say that 775 or 1100 are only slightly over 90 or 142.

That said, I won't said that the jumps are insignificant neither as if you get them early enough you can gain up to 12-13% and more importantly can jump farer* with Briv, making your runs more efficient potion-wise.

*The con is you don't know when the rush will strike and so can't plan Briv stacking according to it (apart you use a script to do the wait for you).

[LostSoul]

Publicado originalmente por Kriogar:

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

Without Thellora in my party:
Clearing to her favor cap for me takes roughly 15 minute with a medium haste potion.

I wonder if your Briv is 1J, 2J or 3J?
Also what area is this favor cap for you?

4j, of course. That's why I said it. And in a 4j party, it takes less than 3 minutes to reach her favor cap. Which is irrelevant, because with as low as her favor cap is, you can't rebuild stacks at that point. Even with just 2 champions in the party (briv + spec-capped tatyana) enemies won't live long enough to attack him (his attack cleaves, so numbers won't matter). You have to keep going, WAAAY past her favor cap, thus reducing the value of her speed effect to virtually nothing. It should also be noted, the game really doesn't like it when your main party restarts quicker than 10 minutes -- it'll bug out your background parties and cause them to stop making progress. Which, collectively, are worth about as much as you'd gain from adding Thellora to a 4j briv party.

No matter how you slice it, Thellora's value as a speed champion is negligible. Except in situations where no other speed champions are eligible, which is pretty rare.

[LostSoul]

Publicado originalmente por Derpykat5:

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

Without Thellora in my party:
Clearing to her favor cap for me takes roughly 15 minute with a medium haste potion. That's about as close to a perfect fit as you'll find in this game. That would also be a complete waste of a large haste potion. Whereas if I continue to my soft wall, that takes about 40 minutes on a large haste potion, achieving roughly a 25% increase in my total areas cleared in per minute compared to a medium haste potion to area 300.

So if I include Thellora in my party:
I can 'perfectly' fit a short run to Thellora's rush effect and earn fewer gems per hour than not using her at all in a longer run, and there's no point in using her in a longer runs, since it reduces the effectiveness of her rush ability to basically nothing.

It should also be noted: medium speed potions are far better used on 4j briv parties, so even in that respect, it's a waste.

You aren't going to have enough potions to pop a potion every loop of a gem farm unless you have some crazy obscene gem gain.

Pushing to your softwall is also inefficient unless you are also burning fire breath pots. You want to push to your click wall, which is only ever slightly higher than the rush cap.

The rate at which I gain potions allows me to use them pretty much non-stop. But I do adjust which size of potions I use based on the duration of my runs. Longer runs get larger potions. My 4j Briv party gets medium potions, because they're about 11 minutes each, from start to restart.

And my click wall is close to double Thellora's rush cap, so no, not 'slightly' higher.

[Kriogar]

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

4j, of course. That's why I said it. And in a 4j party, it takes less than 3 minutes to reach her favor cap.

Ok, I am on drugs atm so maybe this is why I dont really understand what you are saying.
Is it 15 minutes or 3 minutes? Its quite a big diffrence....

Also you skiped part where I asked about your favor.

Doesnt look like you really want to share, but I will.
I have e103 favor and click wall of ~840. Runs take me 5,5min potless.
Using Thell increased my bph by I'd say ~10% (before that she actually lowered my bph by that, bckz I wasnt jumping on x1/x6).
I dont really see how some1 can call her 'negligible'.


Edit
BTW: Shouldnt math be easy here? I I have e103 favor and click wall of 840, then I have to do 'only' 737 areas. So thats arround 12% faster runs.
And since Thells rush and click wall are both based on your favor - it should be 12% for every1, right?

[LostSoul]

If there was a central theme to my complaints regarding Thellora, it's that the favor cap on her rush effect is wildly too low but also completely unnecessary. Other core game mechanics already 'address' whatever problem it's supposed to prevent. She should be a reliable 10/20% speed boost, which is nothing outlandish or extreme, but her favor cap completely screws that up.

[LostSoul]

Publicado originalmente por Kriogar:

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

4j, of course. That's why I said it. And in a 4j party, it takes less than 3 minutes to reach her favor cap.

Ok, I am on drugs atm so maybe this is why I dont really understand what you are saying.
Is it 15 minutes or 3 minutes? Its quite a big diffrence....

Also you skiped part where I asked about your favor.

Doesnt look like you really want to share, but I will.
I have e103 favor and click wall of ~840. Runs take me 5,5min potless.
Using Thell increased my bph by I'd say ~10% (before that she actually lowered my bph by that, bckz I wasnt jumping on x1/x6).
I dont really see how some1 can call her 'negligible'.

3 minutes with a briv party, which I don't use all the time, because it's fussy and doesn't play well with other games or major applications running (it tends to trigger bad resets and stalled runs). 15 minutes is with a regular speed party (it's actually closer to 12 minutes after timing it again).

Also, I don't hoard my favor, so they rarely sit much higher than ~60, but when I'm so inclined, I can push them to ~65.

I also call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on your numbers. I've timed potless 4j briv speeds. You're not clearing to 840 in 5 minutes. You're not even doing it with small haste potions. They run out at around the 600 mark. Would you like to try again, or have you admitted that you're actually cheating? -edit- Or are you not using Wasting Haste feat and your Briv is *much* higher than 4j?

[Derpykat5]

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

Publicado originalmente por Derpykat5:

You aren't going to have enough potions to pop a potion every loop of a gem farm unless you have some crazy obscene gem gain.

Pushing to your softwall is also inefficient unless you are also burning fire breath pots. You want to push to your click wall, which is only ever slightly higher than the rush cap.

The rate at which I gain potions allows me to use them pretty much non-stop. But I do adjust which size of potions I use based on the duration of my runs. Longer runs get larger potions. My 4j Briv party gets medium potions, because they're about 11 minutes each, from start to restart.

And my click wall is close to double Thellora's rush cap, so no, not 'slightly' higher.

You are in the extreme late game of favor farming. 4J Briv with enough other supports to sustain potions for every run is very hard to get.

I don't think it's physically possible to get an actual clickwall that is 20x higher than your favor exponent (let alone 40x higher with the feat). In most cases it's only about 12x higher, and yes I ran the numbers for multiple favor exponents. You'd need debuffs in your speed team to actually get what you are describing.

Even still, Thellora is going to be a few dozen free zones every loop. Not quite 10%, but pretty close. That's substantial.

Unless of course you're doing unscripted Briv stacking, in which case adding any new champ is often far more trouble than it's worth.

But for the people who don't use Briv or use him with scripting, Thellora is a solid 8% increase out of the box with no investment.

[Kriogar]

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

I also call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on your numbers. I've timed potless 4j briv speeds. You're not clearing to 840 in 5 minutes. You're not even doing it with small haste potions. They run out at around the 600 mark. Would you like to try again, or have you admitted that you're actually cheating? -edit- Or are you not using Wasting Haste feat and your Briv is *much* higher than 4j?

https://i.imgur.com/fyZMDBC.jpg

60 runs average good enough for you?
I can show +100 runs overnight tommorow if you need it.

Oh, And I am using that feat for Briv, yes.

[LostSoul]

Publicado originalmente por Derpykat5:

Publicado originalmente por LostSoul:

The rate at which I gain potions allows me to use them pretty much non-stop. But I do adjust which size of potions I use based on the duration of my runs. Longer runs get larger potions. My 4j Briv party gets medium potions, because they're about 11 minutes each, from start to restart.

And my click wall is close to double Thellora's rush cap, so no, not 'slightly' higher.

You are in the extreme late game of favor farming. 4J Briv with enough other supports to sustain potions for every run is very hard to get.

I don't think it's physically possible to get an actual clickwall that is 20x higher than your favor exponent (let alone 40x higher with the feat). In most cases it's only about 12x higher, and yes I ran the numbers for multiple favor exponents. You'd need debuffs in your speed team to actually get what you are describing.

Even still, Thellora is going to be a few dozen free zones every loop. Not quite 10%, but pretty close. That's substantial.

Unless of course you're doing unscripted Briv stacking, in which case adding any new champ is often far more trouble than it's worth.

But for the people who don't use Briv or use him with scripting, Thellora is a solid 8% increase out of the box with no investment.

Which is both the point and the problem: she's a whopping 8%, making her one of the most ineffectual speed champions in the game. Sure, *technically* she can offer a 20% boost, but attempting to achieve it only magnifies other problems to the same result: she can never actually provide anywhere near that level of speed. And again, even at her *best*, she's still only offering a 20% boost! 4j Briv is a 400% increase in clear speeds! That's only 2000% stronger than Thellora! Hewmaan can provide similar speed increases. The next tier down of speed champions are around 50%. So even at her absolute possible theoretical best, she's still a mediocre third-rate speed champion. And she still would be, even without the favor cap that prevents getting the most out of her speed boost.