Broken Patron Variants ...

[Astardis]

not sure if someone pointed this out, but some Patron Variants are unbeatable. For example 'Grant Tour/Waterdeep/Lost in the Deep. Each 25 Zones one Hero Slot is blocked. Reaching 250 means that ALL slots are gone and the goal is to reach 275.

[Mal]

Soul Reaver eredeti hozzászólása:

I think there's only single variant - Never Split The Party, that has random formations

And there are two Patrons.

[Psylisa]

Soul Reaver eredeti hozzászólása:

I think there's only single variant - Never Split The Party, that has random formations

You can remove the randomness of Never Split the Party by using a Firebreath potion and the BUD system.

Simply go back to a level where you have optimal champion layout, power up your BUD, then zoom back to the levels where you don't have such a layout. Complete them with high BUD.

For Never Split the Party, all it takes is one level 25 area with an optimal placement. One strategy is to constantly reset at the 1-25 area to ensure that you get at least one optimal placement.

[Psylisa]

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

When you suggest that unreleased future champs and possible level increases are the intended solution to current content that is meant to be solved now, I remember you aren't actually a dev, and hopefully the devs aren't planning to go down that path any time in the future.

Yes, that's a solution, and an acceptable one.

Just because content is released today doesn't mean that all players should expect to complete all content.

Would you think a player that started a week ago should be able to complete all the variants? The answer of course, is no - it's an unreasonable expectation.

Just because you personally can't complete the variants doesn't mean they are impossible. There have been several players now that are at 100% completion for the patrons (I'm not one of them). This has been the design of some of the toughest variants and adventures from the beginning from unlocking Drizzt or Azaka to other challenging content. Not everyone will complete them straight away.

[Mal]

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

When you suggest that unreleased future champs and possible level increases are the intended solution to current content that is meant to be solved now, I remember you aren't actually a dev, and hopefully the devs aren't planning to go down that path any time in the future.

Yes, that's a solution, and an acceptable one.

Just because content is released today doesn't mean that all players should expect to complete all content.

Ok, and I see again why you are not a dev.

That isn't what I said. But they should be able to complete the content with the currently available resources within the game. And for the average player (which is not You nor Me) that is highly unlikely.

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

Would you think a player that started a week ago should be able to complete all the variants? The answer of course, is no - it's an unreasonable expectation.

That isn't what I said, nor implied.

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

Just because you personally can't complete the variants doesn't mean they are impossible.

I believe I said "practically"...

I have completed all but the Strahd variants, which I realize will take a serious money investment from me to get the original champions gear beyond the needed 500+ level and all shiny equipped. I think I'll just wait since spending money on original champs is absurd.

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

This has been the design of some of the toughest variants and adventures from the beginning from unlocking Drizzt or Azaka to other challenging content. Not everyone will complete them straight away.

See my first response.


On another note, I find it interesting that even with your exploit gotten amount of favor, that you haven't completed all the patron variants. But then again, there is no rush.

[Psylisa]

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok, and I see again why you are not a dev.

I'm not a developer because I don't work for CNE. I never claimed to have ever worked for CNE, nor claimed any inside knowledge. My opinion is just my opinion.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

But they should be able to complete the content with the currently available resources within the game. And for the average player (which is not You nor Me) that is highly unlikely.

And that's where I disagree. The average player should NOT be able to complete all content as soon as it's released. In the history of this game, that has never been the case. You can literally go all the way back to Drizzt being released as a 175 objective and people complaining they couldn't complete it then. You wait for some more champions to come along or a level cap increase, and suddenly it's more accessible. That's been this game since inception.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

On another note, I find it interesting that even with your exploit gotten amount of favor, that you haven't completed all the patron variants. But then again, there is no rush.

The only adventure where I've had to utilize my favor to complete has been No Good At All for Mirt. It's something I'm very upfront about, and I've chronicled many of the Patron variants I've completed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/idlechampions/comments/cxghkx/psylisas_patron_request_thread/

[Mal]

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok, and I see again why you are not a dev.

I'm not a developer because I don't work for CNE. I never claimed to have ever worked for CNE, nor claimed any inside knowledge. My opinion is just my opinion.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

But they should be able to complete the content with the currently available resources within the game. And for the average player (which is not You nor Me) that is highly unlikely.

And that's where I disagree. The average player should NOT be able to complete all content as soon as it's released. In the history of this game, that has never been the case. You can literally go all the way back to Drizzt being released as a 175 objective and people complaining they couldn't complete it then. You wait for some more champions to come along or a level cap increase, and suddenly it's more accessible. That's been this game since inception.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

On another note, I find it interesting that even with your exploit gotten amount of favor, that you haven't completed all the patron variants. But then again, there is no rush.

The only adventure where I've had to utilize my favor to complete has been No Good At All for Mirt. It's something I'm very upfront about, and I've chronicled many of the Patron variants I've completed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/idlechampions/comments/cxghkx/psylisas_patron_request_thread/

No one said you worked for CNE, I said you are obviously not a game developer, and this statement was based only on the opinions you have expressed here.

You keep adding words and changing the meaning of my posts. Please quit assuming there is a hidden subtext.

ALL players should ABSOLUTELY be able to complete ALL content with the currently provided resources.

I never mentioned a time frame for this, but you keep doing that.

The game has had numerous balance updates and even wholesale restructuring from the ground up. However, all the game events and 'expansions' have always been able to be eventually completed within the current framework, and all without ever needing to purchase anything. Has this now changed? Maybe...

[Psylisa]

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

ALL players should ABSOLUTELY be able to complete ALL content with the currently provided resources.

I never mentioned a time frame for this, but you keep doing that.

But you can... given enough time. Time has to be a factor since time determines how developed you are as a player. It determines your multipliers on things that you can control, like gear or favor because as time goes on, those things always increase provided you are playing (which is a function of time).

If you remove the time factor, there's no mission currently in the game that any player can't legitimately complete. Every single mission is solvable given enough time.

[Mal]

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

ALL players should ABSOLUTELY be able to complete ALL content with the currently provided resources.

I never mentioned a time frame for this, but you keep doing that.

But you can... given enough time. Time has to be a factor since time determines how developed you are as a player. It determines your multipliers on things that you can control, like gear or favor because as time goes on, those things always increase provided you are playing (which is a function of time).

If you remove the time factor, there's no mission currently in the game that any player can't legitimately complete. Every single mission is solvable given enough time.

I never mentioned time because that element is a given (this is an idle game). You assigned terms like "as soon as its released" and "a week ago" when talking about a new player. You have been the only person in this topic suggesting these truncated time allotments, and have completely missed the whole point of this discussion.

There are now some variants with Patron limitations that will take (the normal and fairly new player) 25+ years to be able to complete if you are going F2P. And as I have stated elsewhere, I have no problem with this, but it does change the 'spirit' of the game design.

So does the aformentioned specific player type and time frame to complete make some of these new patron variants 'practically' impossible to ever solve? From where I sit it certainly looks to be the case.

[Psylisa]

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

There are now some variants with Patron limitations that will take (the normal and fairly new player) 25+ years to be able to complete if you are going F2P. And as I have stated elsewhere, I have no problem with this, but it does change the 'spirit' of the game design.

But that isn't the truth at all. There are F2P players that have completed them.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

So does the aformentioned specific player type and time frame to complete make some of these new patron variants 'practically' impossible to ever solve? From where I sit it certainly looks to be the case.

That's because your viewpoint is from your viewpoint alone. The bar for every variant isn't set directly below what you personally can achieve.

As I've said MANY times; wait for a level cap increase or new heroes to get introduced. My evil team for No Good At All (Mirt) for instance, is very weak. I don't even have any gear on Korth for example. Other players have a beefed up Krond that can take this variant even as F2P. As soon as another evil champion comes out, there's going to be many people completing this variant. 2 evil champs and a level cap increase will trivialize it.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

have completely missed the whole point of this discussion.

So what is your point? You don't want to wait? Help me understand what it is you trying to accomplish with this discussion. Keep in mind, CNE's own blogpost stated that the Patron system is end-game content. It's not MEANT to be readily accessible and finished by every single player.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

ALL players should ABSOLUTELY be able to complete ALL content with the currently provided resources.

If that's your goal or the point of this discussion, it's over. That's simply not a possibility. In the end, CNE is going to release content that has value to both new players and veteran players alike. This by definition means not all of the content will be finished immediately by all the players.

[Mal]

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

There are now some variants with Patron limitations that will take (the normal and fairly new player) 25+ years to be able to complete if you are going F2P. And as I have stated elsewhere, I have no problem with this, but it does change the 'spirit' of the game design.

But that isn't the truth at all. There are F2P players that have completed them.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

So does the aformentioned specific player type and time frame to complete make some of these new patron variants 'practically' impossible to ever solve? From where I sit it certainly looks to be the case.

That's because your viewpoint is from your viewpoint alone. The bar for every variant isn't set directly below what you personally can achieve.

As I've said MANY times; wait for a level cap increase or new heroes to get introduced. My evil team for No Good At All (Mirt) for instance, is very weak. I don't even have any gear on Korth for example. Other players have a beefed up Krond that can take this variant even as F2P. As soon as another evil champion comes out, there's going to be many people completing this variant. 2 evil champs and a level cap increase will trivialize it.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

have completely missed the whole point of this discussion.

So what is your point? You don't want to wait? Help me understand what it is you trying to accomplish with this discussion. Keep in mind, CNE's own blogpost stated that the Patron system is end-game content. It's not MEANT to be readily accessible and finished by every single player.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

ALL players should ABSOLUTELY be able to complete ALL content with the currently provided resources.

If that's your goal or the point of this discussion, it's over. That's simply not a possibility. In the end, CNE is going to release content that has value to both new players and veteran players alike. This by definition means not all of the content will be finished immediately by all the players.

You keep using words like "immediately" to further your argument, and again you are the only one approaching this from that perspective.

I already stated I have completed all but both patron's Strahd variant. So this is not just "my viewpoint." In addition, it is very easy to just theory out the outcome of a variant once you look at the restrictions and the goals. I have every champion and other than Turiel, are extremely well equipped.

A normal (not speeding up the game with 3rd party tools nor benefiting from exploits) and F2P player has most certainly not completed the patron variants, it is statistically impossible. It isn't difficult to do the math. Be generous and say someone actively played since release for 8760 hours each year, it still just doesn't happen in a two year old game, until you look at players with the in game clock equivalent of 50,000+ hours (which would be 6 years of constant active playing) and/or some serious real money purchases (which I myself do) none is coming close to completing all the patron variants in their current form.

So will CNE release a new original champion?

If they don't and you rely on making 500 gems per 3+ hour Mad Wizard run (no scripting), and moving your favor via event/gate bonuses, the patron Strahd variant will be very, very difficult to complete before CNE pulls the plug in even a few years.

I don't think you understand what endgame content actually means. And by your admission, people are completing all of the new content already, so does CNE need to do anything? It is obviously working as intended which has been my point all along.

[thegrassyknoll]

Problem with never split the party, is last enemy is armored so the go back and bud may not work as well as suggested. I didnt even think to try that unfortunately, but will if i get stuck with bad draw on last switch stage.. I spent 3-4 hours getting to 325 only to have only 4 characters available( and i have all guys and worst case 50%-50% chance per slot and 2/3 or 3/4 in many of them. Burn.....Only for time spent though. Nothing wrong with some hard variants. Oh well, cant win em all.

What is the hardest variant people have encountered so far?

[Psylisa]

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

I already stated I have completed all but both patron's Strahd variant. So this is not just "my viewpoint." In addition, it is very easy to just theory out the outcome of a variant once you look at the restrictions and the goals. I have every champion and other than Turiel, are extremely well equipped.

Hooray for you. But again, I'm asking WHAT DO YOU WANT DONE?

You keep championing this idea that all the people playing should be able to complete all the variants when they are released, but here you sit, with all of them done. What's your goal? You haven't answered the question. Do you want them easier? Harder? Why are you bellyaching and going on and on about the patron variants and being able to complete or not complete them?

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

A normal (not speeding up the game with 3rd party tools nor benefiting from exploits) and F2P player has most certainly not completed the patron variants, it is statistically impossible.

And yet, they have tackled the most demanding variants. Mars is F2P and is very active in the community; he's completed many of the most demanding variants. There's been quite a few others that are F2P and have done so as well. For those that haven't, it's a matter of time. For instance, Strahd on Vajra means you can't use Celeste - but Celeste has a hidden +1 CON feat that hasn't been released yet. As soon as she gets that, more people will complete the variant. That's 100% intended.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

If they don't and you rely on making 500 gems per 3+ hour Mad Wizard run (no scripting), and moving your favor via event/gate bonuses, the patron Strahd variant will be very, very difficult to complete before CNE pulls the plug in even a few years.

I get much more than 500 gems/3 hours, especially with Deekin and Shandie out. You're also incorrect about needing "a few years" to complete Strahd. It may seem like that now, but as I pointed above - Celeste has a +1 CON feat unreleased. There's also level cap increases that will come in time.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

II don't think you understand what endgame content actually means. And by your admission, people are completing all of the new content already, so does CNE need to do anything? It is obviously working as intended which has been my point all along.

If it's working as intended, what are you arguing for? I keep asking you that REPEATEDLY, and you keep evading the question. So... answer the question. Otherwise, I'm done with you.

[Psylisa]

thegrassyknoll eredeti hozzászólása:

What is the hardest variant people have encountered so far?

Visions of Strahd on Vajra is probably the most difficult one due to the restrictions and the lv 50 boss mechanics. You'll absolutely need Potions of Heroism along with top-end gear. Most players will need to wait for Celeste's +1 CON feat to arrive before completing it.

A Saurial's Lament is the most demanding one for DPS requirements that I've seen. You'll need e140 for it.

No Good At All on Mirt is also difficult, because Evil champions are not abundant.

Bullywugs in the Bogs is also very demanding with unique position requirements and demand for high DPS.

Never Split the Party is also demanding, but if you use the BUD system and a Firebreath potion, you can make it through with some patience and perseverance.

[Mal]

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

I already stated I have completed all but both patron's Strahd variant. So this is not just "my viewpoint." In addition, it is very easy to just theory out the outcome of a variant once you look at the restrictions and the goals. I have every champion and other than Turiel, are extremely well equipped.

Hooray for you. But again, I'm asking WHAT DO YOU WANT DONE?

You keep championing this idea that all the people playing should be able to complete all the variants when they are released, but here you sit, with all of them done. What's your goal? You haven't answered the question. Do you want them easier? Harder? Why are you bellyaching and going on and on about the patron variants and being able to complete or not complete them?

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

A normal (not speeding up the game with 3rd party tools nor benefiting from exploits) and F2P player has most certainly not completed the patron variants, it is statistically impossible.

And yet, they have tackled the most demanding variants. Mars is F2P and is very active in the community; he's completed many of the most demanding variants. There's been quite a few others that are F2P and have done so as well. For those that haven't, it's a matter of time. For instance, Strahd on Vajra means you can't use Celeste - but Celeste has a hidden +1 CON feat that hasn't been released yet. As soon as she gets that, more people will complete the variant. That's 100% intended.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

If they don't and you rely on making 500 gems per 3+ hour Mad Wizard run (no scripting), and moving your favor via event/gate bonuses, the patron Strahd variant will be very, very difficult to complete before CNE pulls the plug in even a few years.

I get much more than 500 gems/3 hours, especially with Deekin and Shandie out. You're also incorrect about needing "a few years" to complete Strahd. It may seem like that now, but as I pointed above - Celeste has a +1 CON feat unreleased. There's also level cap increases that will come in time.

Mal eredeti hozzászólása:

II don't think you understand what endgame content actually means. And by your admission, people are completing all of the new content already, so does CNE need to do anything? It is obviously working as intended which has been my point all along.

If it's working as intended, what are you arguing for? I keep asking you that REPEATEDLY, and you keep evading the question. So... answer the question. Otherwise, I'm done with you.

You are not the normal player and everything you say is irrelevant to those of us that choose to play the game as CNE intended with what is available within the game.

I am not arguing. I stated that most all players will find the new content practically impossible to complete and you chose to start arguing that that was not true, and then went on to contradict yourself and so here we are.

[Mal]

Psylisa eredeti hozzászólása:

thegrassyknoll eredeti hozzászólása:

What is the hardest variant people have encountered so far?

Visions of Strahd on Vajra is probably the most difficult one due to the restrictions and the lv 50 boss mechanics. You'll absolutely need Potions of Heroism along with top-end gear. Most players will need to wait for Celeste's +1 CON feat to arrive before completing it.

A Saurial's Lament is the most demanding one for DPS requirements that I've seen. You'll need e140 for it.

No Good At All on Mirt is also difficult, because Evil champions are not abundant.

Bullywugs in the Bogs is also very demanding with unique position requirements and demand for high DPS.

Never Split the Party is also demanding, but if you use the BUD system and a Firebreath potion, you can make it through with some patience and perseverance.

Sounds like these might be practically impossible to complete for most players...