Expert + ruined it.

[JessyJams]

I don't care if this isn't popular, but take it from someone who routinely scored in the top 300 on expert before expert +.. Expert + isn't fun.

Yes, Expert + is very hard, as it probably should be, but it's come at a great cost to enjoyment for those of us who found the old progression fun and enjoyable, but not the new expert + wall grind.

The issue is that the very mechanics of the game are now being abused to provide an extreme challenge. Why am I forced to swing through walls to hit blocks? Why am I now having to resort to only moving my head to avoid the contorted wall mechanics when, in fact, the fun of expert was that I could use my whole body?

There is no progression between Expert and Expert +. Expert doesn't train you properly for Expert +. You must either fail over and over and over again, or use the incredibly underdeveloped practice mode that feels more like work than fun. Instead of decent smooth progression, we get a number of toggles that we need to mess around with to find our sweetspot. Unfortunately, we're penalized in score for doing this despite the fact that our score wouldn't be competitive anyways if we weren't masters of the song.


For me, Expert + has ruined the "meta" of beatsaber. It's created a slippery slope of impossible to scale difficulty(due to sensor limitations) to cater to a market I don't know exists. Rather than expand with higher tempo'd songs, or create more interesting patterns, it's now devolved into a mere block orgy reminiscent of the worst the modded song community has to offer. To do so, it had to abandon reasonable and rational level design . Songs are no longer in tempo. Walls are no longer body movements but gimmicky fake out mechanics that routinely force you to abandon common sense in order to succeed.

This started as a light saber dance game. Now I have to cut my own arms off with my sabers and let walls cut my arms off too. It makes no sense any more.


If there NEEDS to be this much added difficulty, for the 0.00001% of the playerbase who cares about it, could it atleast be loyal to the core mechanics of the game? Can I not be forced to swing my arm through a wall ? Would it be too much to not put in wall mechanics that ignore the fact that I have a body wh ilst only caring about the head?

It's way too gamey now. It's clear that the developers listened only to the most extreme, mechanics abusing players in designing expert +. These levels are made entirely for those who abuse and sidestep the limitation of the input to achieve results. Just not fun.


Angel voices Expert is an example of an excellently balanced song. It's designed entirely around expert, with fast and slow parts that are clearly custom made for the song. While I don't care for the song itself, it is by far the best level design so far. Then, suddenly, they do a 180 months later only to give us Expert +, the complete Antithesis of Angel Voices Expert.

Does anybody else feel that Expert + was a step in the wrong direction?

EDIT: This is girlfriend of MCKE, we share this account. Base expert+ is just poorly mapped. Its passable but not fun. Custom songs in expert+ like Overkill, Nuclear Star, Etc are awesome. Don't get discouraged by his post, he stopped after 70 hours into the game. I'm almost at 300 hrs in. Expert+ and ++ are all I play at this point, I love the game!!! Sure some mechanics are super gimmicky but I don't care. The devs and modding community have put alot of work into making the game better for everyone and has taken the maps to a whole new level of physically intense game play. Keep on trying and practicing, if a song annoys you move along and come back later. The core OST isn't great, but you are not forced to play it if you mod the game. I brought that point up before but a certain someone only wanted to play the OST because "its the only score that should actually count". Nah, no thanks, boring!
Anyways, see you guys on the leaderboard!
-JS

[JessyJams]

Originally posted by Vespertellino:

Originally posted by Capnmaf:

TL;DR E+ is rewarding and doesn't ruin anything. Learn to appreciate challenges.

We appreciate challenge in rhythm games. It stops being a rhythm game when the game stops following music.
I love 'Rap god' beat map. Is it challenging? Hell yea, at least on par with official E+
Did I fail it a lot before I passed? Helllllll yea. Was it fun tho, even though I failed a lot? Totally.
Were official E+ songs fun, even though I passed most on the 1st try? No, they're still terrible whatever you try to call them. Challenge my ass.

This is exactly where I stand on the matter. Since posting the original post, I've improved, as I knew and stated that I would, but my opinion remains unchanged. I feel no motivation to go beyond an A or S on any Expert + core songs.

The main reason is that I don't feel the music as well. WHile subjective, this is important for me. Secondly, I really don't think I can get an FC with my set up. Not sure why, but the inexplicable misses are just too consistent now. I was able to work around them in Expert , but not in Expert +.

I've heard of people adding additional sensors or insulating their rooms specifically to reduce interference of various kinds, but I can't be bothered to do that. I already paid in time and money to set this up sufficient for what the operating specs told me to do, it's not my problem that the developers are exceeding those parameters.

It's unfortunate, because I absolutely loved chasing the SS FC on Expert. The joy in that pursuit is gone in Expert + though.

[JessyJams]

Originally posted by Capnmaf:

I also don't like the way you worded your other point. You've totally casted aside the complexity they put into the E+ mappings, something that's way more interesting than what Expert had to offer. And what does "doesn't scale well with the hardware" even mean? That it's not tracking? What are we scaling it to? If it's hitting blocks, I haven't had issues with hitting them, except when they get deleted when they leave my FOV (which is really dumb, devs should look at that). I also didn't quote your other points, but like the other guy was talking about, you've got too many subjective points being stated as fact. I know you want to defend your position, but come on now....

Well I do agree that I should have worded my OP better. That's certain. It comes across perhaps as too confrontational when in fact, I'm just giving my feedback.

Speaking of feedback, that's what it is and what I claimed it to be. It's my opinion. The only factual thing I'd claim is that the patterns do increase collisions significantly more.

Also, the scaling pertains to the sensors. They are clearly struggling. Even if you don't have this problem, I am most certainly not anywhere near the only person complaining about it. It comes up routinely in the discord and reddit forums. Here too. It's a big issue, and probably isn't anything the Developer's can control, but they should be aware of the limitations of the hardware as well as the vast array of set ups using the hardware. We know for a fact that everything from reflections, light of certain wavelengths, and heat affect sensor performance. The closer they push the sensors to their limits, the more likely these factors become a big deal.

Barring all of this, my biggest gripe of this thread that I saw when skimming was arguments on difficulty & progression. I agree, there's a large disparity between Expert and Expert+. It surprised me too when I first encountered it. But I laughed when I read some of these posts, talking about how it doesn't feel "organic" or that it's "artificial" in difficulty. Unless you're extremely good at this game, these songs were meant to be practiced. They were meant to show off your skill of the game.

Again, this isn't going to be arguable either way. You either agree or disagree. As such, I have no reason to really say you're wrong. If you like Expert + great, but this doesn't really undermine my points. In fact, you agree with the crux of what I'm saying even if you find the wording to be contentious.

....I agree, there's a large disparity between Expert and Expert+.

If you agree with that, then I'm not really sure why we'd disagree. You can think my examples are incongruent, and some might be, but fundamentally, you agree that the core game is lacking in how it prepares you for Expert +. This is a big design issue. Imagine any game where the hardest boss or challenge is front loaded and the rest is just a breeze? Not good design.

My points aren't to paint a separate picture, but rather to explain why the above is the case and what problems it creates. Maybe it creates different problems for you. Maybe it bothers you in different ways or not at all.

I could have just not given feedback. Instead I could say, "meh this sucks, back to modded". I want them to know though so they can improve the game, whether they use my advice to do that or not.

You can pretty much think of E+ as learning a hard song on an instrument you've been playing. You slow the song down and study it. Learn the notes and technique, and eventually start building up your speed. Like, you could take some of the arguments in this thread and apply them to learning an instrument. You would get called out for it, saying you should "git gud", just like what people have already been doing in this thread. I don't know why people are still surprised to be getting that kind of feedback on something that is skill based. You should realize that the high level stuff is a pain in the ass to learn but is just that much more rewarding to conquer when you're done with it. If someone was able to do it, you should be able to do it as well with enough practice. If you can't appreciate this then why can't you do something that you actually enjoy?

To the first part, this depends. If I'm training myself on an instrument, I have more tools and far fewer limitations to learning it. Here I am forced to mod the game to find that middle ground, or play the song in slow motion, which is just tedious homework, or I just fail dozens of times until the stars align.

As to your second part. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm not saying I can't do it. I'm saying it hasn't been nearly as fun as Expert and modded songs, and that for the first time since starting this game, I have no desire to even attempt SS or FC status in the core songs.

To end with, this game wasn't ruined by E+, it was made better by it. It offers a high level of play to those that want it, and isn't forced on anyone. Or maybe E+ did ruin it, because it made Expert mode feel slow, dull, like it was missing beats, and just overall boring to those that like this level of play. All I know is, the game is going in the right direction and I want more.

Expert was easy to learn, hard to master. Beating an Expert song wasn't hard at all. Even an A wasn't hard, but SS was something worth aiming for. Even then, if you wanted a challenge, you got modded songs. The great thing there is that you have control over your progression because you had so many options. The core game, on Expert +, is just a wall from start to finish however.

[Beeftub]

I'm not going to read the 5 previous pages of replies. I think expert+ is an amazing dificulty. Granted, its not for everyone. The difficulty forces players to learn the patterns in each level while keeping the intuitiveness of the expert block placement. There are some songs that most definetely could have been designed better for the difficulty (angelic voices, comercial pumping).

If you think expert+ is a bad difficulty either a.) it isn't for you, or b.) try K/DA on expert plus. K/DA on expert+ is, in my opinion, the most fair and fun song I've played in beatsaber.

I don't find expert+ gamey, after moving to it, its hard to go back to expert. I guess thats a matter of opinion.

The sidestep thing is where you're wrong though. I haven't heard of this glitch and have gotten a B on the majority of expert+ levels by playing the game normally.

[JessyJams]

Originally posted by Beeftub:

I'm not going to read the 5 previous pages of replies. I think expert+ is an amazing dificulty. Granted, its not for everyone. The difficulty forces players to learn the patterns in each level while keeping the intuitiveness of the expert block placement. There are some songs that most definetely could have been designed better for the difficulty (angelic voices, comercial pumping).

Well that's entirely my point. The core songs are not very well designed. Unfortunately, when talking about Expert +, in general, we're never going to agree because if we look at the modding community, which created Expert +, the difficulty runs the gamut from fairly easy to impossibly hard. So it's not easy to just say that Expert + is amazing or isn't amazing because there's no standard.

Instead, it's about the core songs and how they're mapped. In that regard, they are mapped poorly. Why? Because they are incongruent with any other method of progression. There's something missing between Expert and Expert + that isn't missing between say Hard and Expert. Either tools to practice, or the nature of failure as incorporated, or the abuse of certain game mechanics to over inflate the challenge.

Again, I've gone over this. My idea of what they should have done was how they did Angel Voices Expert, which at the time I thought was quite brilliant.

If you think expert+ is a bad difficulty either a.) it isn't for you, or b.) try K/DA on expert plus. K/DA on expert+ is, in my opinion, the most fair and fun song I've played in beatsaber.

Already have an A in KDA. I'm not unable to beat Expert +. I just don't enjoy the journey as much as I had hoped. At this point the only songs I don't have A's in are ones I'm just tired of listening to or don't like at all. It's just too sloggish for me to care about at this point.

See I think this is why people don't make more posts despite there being agreement in the thread about what I'm saying. If you question, from a game development standpoint, the nature of the difficulty, people assume that you don't know how to play. I suppose somehow me not liking the structure of the difficulty for the core songs means to almost everyone that I can't do it. This isn't the case. If I was just wanting to whine without anything constructive coming out of it, I'd put this in general.

I'm here to make an argument about the philosophical nature of the challenge the core Expert + songs seem to be abiding by. A philosophy far different from Expert that betrays old norms and gives no enjoyable means of progressing into. This isn't about doing it or not. It also isn't about making it easier or nerfing the song difficulty. It's about the quality of the difficulty.

I don't find expert+ gamey, after moving to it, its hard to go back to expert. I guess thats a matter of opinion.

Well, I too wouldn't go back to expert, as I've said before, but then again, expert has been out dated for months with modding so it's not really like it's a new development. Expert has its place and even good players could spend hours improving their scores, but it's besides the point. I do find the core songs to be fairly gamey in how they handle some of their patterns because it often feels like busy work was a higher goal than correctly mapping the beat.

The sidestep thing is where you're wrong though. I haven't heard of this glitch and have gotten a B on the majority of expert+ levels by playing the game normally.

This thread is so old at this point, I honestly don't remember what you're refering to. It's too late for me to reread it, but I will do just that next time I play. I will probably edit the OP too so it's more clear on what my points are. I totally admit it is somewhat poorly structured. I wrote it piecemail between songs while playing. never gave it the once over it needed.

[Dknighter]

Personally I love Expert+ and don't play any other difficulty.

[shapeshiftingpedro]

Originally posted by McKE:

Well that's entirely my point. The core songs are not very well designed. Unfortunately, when talking about Expert +, in general, we're never going to agree because if we look at the modding community, which created Expert +, the difficulty runs the gamut from fairly easy to impossibly hard. So it's not easy to just say that Expert + is amazing or isn't amazing because there's no standard.

Instead, it's about the core songs and how they're mapped. In that regard, they are mapped poorly. Why? Because they are incongruent with any other method of progression. There's something missing between Expert and Expert + that isn't missing between say Hard and Expert. Either tools to practice, or the nature of failure as incorporated, or the abuse of certain game mechanics to over inflate the challenge.

Again, I've gone over this. My idea of what they should have done was how they did Angel Voices Expert, which at the time I thought was quite brilliant.

This, so much this.

When I first noticed that Angel Voices didn't have a Normal and Easy, I wondered why it was the only song like that. After the first time I played it, I realized that any easier modes wouldn't do the song justice. In the same manner, adding on an Expert + to every song was a mistake.

Going to a music instrument comparison, Main Game Expert + is the equivalent to the composer of a song shoving every single instrument's part together into a single Black MIDI[en.wikipedia.org], and then expecting every instrument to play it all without any problems. Sure, there are some mod songs that are more of a Black MIDI than the original Expert +'s, but the ones that aren't trolls can work out great for slower songs like BFG Division (minus the bombs, the bombs are really unreasonable at points).

I noticed early on in the easier difficulties in some songs that the patterns weren't choreographed very well, as some patterns had you do something like quick up-down-up closely followed by another up. After a month of playing modded songs, I finally decided to try the Main Game Expert + songs. Only a select few have anywhere near "good flow" and seemed feasible to complete the first time I tried them. All of them seemed to be an "Expert ++" song, and had skipped the "Expert +" step.

Most of the good modded maps you can find are INSANELY intuitive, and follow a reasonable difficulty curve. Maps like Natural, Gangam Style, and "Spooky Scary Skeletons" by The Living Tombstone (my personal favorite) are exemplary of that.

tl;dr Beat Saber wasn't ever meant to be a "bullet" hell game. It was always more akin to dancing than anything, and you don't ever "dance" insanely fast to a relatively slow song. Expert + right now is pretty much a Black MIDI irl.

[Shrub]

Skimmed through the comments, I don't really get this though. I always thought of Expert + as pushing you to your limits rather than a perfect score. Even then, try harder to do that if you really want. Expert feels like that perfect balance with good flow. I do agree that some of the official + songs are off, and there are intentional mod "challenge" songs I couldn't care for, but I consider myself pretty casual and I enjoy what most of E+ offers. Not like we're forced to play it, it's an option and the game is still in dev.