New update and expert+ songs are horrible

[FINSullivan]

There are many ways to map songs but the way devs did new expert+ difficulty songs are stupid.
This is a memory game now. You have to memorize most of the blocks and their position.
There is no way anyone can finish new expert+ songs with their 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th try like you can many other songs.
This is one of the worst ways to map songs.
It's not a rythm/reaction based game anymore at all. It's a stupid memory game.
It was fun to play songs a few times per day trying to get better scores than my friends.
New levels you need to play over and over and over again until you remember the whole level.
Devs please don't be bethesda or blizzard. Don't lose touch on your fans.
Read the feedback and reflect on it.
Why does BS feel now like it's a PS4 console port designed for PS4 VR and not for PC VR?
I played BS almost daily, now i don't even want to launch the game because of this update.
I'm rolling back to the beta version and will be playing it probably long after the full release if this is the direction BS is going.
Glad modders exist who can still bring alot of content.
I can't believe devs didn't even update most used mods in the game like highscore visualizer, debris remover, progress counter, auto pause etc. So many must have mods.
2 days with this update was enough for me. It's playable but not enjoyable.

Update:
After BS re-install i'm getting S and SS ranks again from original expert songs.
Tried again 100$ on expert+ and i got farther this time with only one try than ever before.
But it doesnt make the map any better. Still mapped in bad way in my oppinion. And i have my doubts anyone clearing them on 1st try even if they say so.
Did not try installing any mods today. Maybe tomorrow and see how it goes.
-I found less debris option and height option from the player settings.
Complaining about those is my bad. Missed the whole player settings first 2 times i tried BS after update. Unless that was added in the hotfix.
I don't know why BS at deafault thinks i'm 1,7m when i'm 2m and it's even in my oculus settings.
This explains why notes were too low for me.
Now my biggest issue with this update is that there is only one scoreboard for all variables.
Correct me if i'm wrong here. 100$ bills expert rank #1 has 900k points, not possible normally.
You can forget getting to the top 10 with playing vanilla expert difficulty. You have to use the disappearing arrows and faster speed to get highest possible scores.
If i'm not into upping the difficulty but still care to climb on the scoreboard. It's just not possible to me anymore.
I'm sure many players compete with each other who is higher on the score boards. Now you will never know who played vanilla and who used variables to get better scores.

[Tenor Sounds]

I think the Expert+ songs are really fun, just different. They did require more practice and changing my technique, but I'm glad they're in the game and I'd be frustrated if they were taken out or changed to be more like community Expert+ songs. I've had no problem with the update either, none of that fov/size stuff, if anything the game felt more accurate and immersive before the hotfix.

Aside from the view/fov thing (still sounds like a bug that's affecting some people and not others, if I'm being honest) pretty much everything you listed is either subjective opinion on your part (I think the new Expert+ tracks are great, don't see why is memorization bad you still have to have the skill to finish the song, etc.) or are based on the idea that the developers should develop their game around the modding community.

Based on what I've seen from Beat Saber's modding community, I'd rather the devs didn't do that and just focus on making the good game they want to make. I've liked their changes more than I've agreed with the backlash against them, so this constant pressure from the community to just be given exactly what they want and roll back any changes they don't like (the developer's intended design be damned) is starting to get super grating.

Yes, I hope they fix bugs as they're reported. Yes, I hope they make certain features a toggle. Yes, I hope they use a beta build to push updates so modders can keep their mods running smoothly for players. But this sort of petulant brow-beating of the devs, acting like they don't play their own game or don't know what makes it fun and that these updates and new maps are broken and ruin the everything? That's where it just starts to sounds like "it's different, so it's bad".

[FINSullivan]

Different does not always mean bad. But bad is bad and that is my experience with this update.
I hope what i'm experiencing is a bug and will be fixed.
Was not enjoyable as vanilla. Played yesterday.
Today i updated my mods and got even worse experience.
Mods seem to work fine for others. Mods should not change how scoring is caculated at all but now i'm getting C rank at best from songs i used to SS rank a week ago.
So my sitation with BS at the moment is. Can't play vanilla, can't play modded version. (well i can but it's not fun.. feels odd, looks odd, get weird scores.)
Have to rollback update if i want to enjoy BS at all.
I dont understand how anyone can like songs that you have to memorize.
Tags on store page should be changed. Remove "rythm" tag, this game has nothing to do with rythm. This is an exercise/memorization/music game. Or at least is developing to that direction very heavily.
One very big reason why i bought this game was beacause of the "rythm" tag.
No way in 2 hours you understand how the game mechanics work. When you finally realize rythm means nothing, big swings and luck is the key for good scores. (luck because of the tracking issues) I have many videos where i do the same motion over and over again but sabers move in random direction. Mostly they stop moving in X/Y axel, only angle is changing. (might be an oculus rift issue but only happens in BS) This is also why i need auto pause.
So you can imagine how cheated i felt when i finally understood how the mechanics work.
Way past 2 hours of playtime, no way to refund. Felt like i have been mislead to think this game is something else than it actually is.
So yeah the game is playable if i want to get half the scores i used to get.
Kiss the floor to dodge walls that fill top area.
Memorize songs to play them through.
Get drowned in note debris because debris remover does not work at the moment and dev's are unable to add this feature in the game for some reason. Which leads to having to memorize even more songs since now you can't even see the blocks coming.
I have not found a single good thing about the update.
Yeah menu changed.. old menu was ok too. Menus don't really matter to me that much. Menus are not the main game. How the game works is what matters to me.
New sounds horrible, new sabers horrible, finish a song and hear a fanfare, horrible.
Glanced through the menus but didn't find any options to turn these things off.
1 hour yesterday, 45 minutes today and i'm done with this game for sometime.
At least until dev's have fixed what this update broke or mods will.
If that does not happen, the only thing i can do is to rollback update.

[Tenor Sounds]

FINSullivan původně napsal:

- snip -

I don't know what to say, I haven't experienced any of the technical issues you're talking about, or the score discrepancies. As for it not being a rhythm game, well...

Beat Saber focuses more on form and accuracy than something like Hatsune Miku or DDR but it's still absolutely based on music and rhythm. The developers will continue to develop the game in that direction, and I hope they do because it's awesome. At this point I guess it's either adapt to become proficient at the actual type of music game that Beat Saber is, or be upset that it's not what you expected and stick with the version of the game you like the best. As for the game's Steam tags, those are added by players/steam users so clearly plenty of people consider it a rhythm game; perhaps your definition is just too narrow.

"I can't understand why anyone would like songs you have to memorize."

Well that's a you problem, isn't it? I can understand how someone would like that kind of song, and I can understand why someone can like something closer to a common community Expert+ map, people like different things for different reasons, and to practice different skills. It's this attitude that your preferred way is the only way maps can be made fun and calling the developer's Expert+ levels awful, trying to pound the game into a specific shape that fits your personal whims over anything else...that's what gets my goat.

If you want to play a VR rhythm game that is closer to a 1-to-1 translation of what you'd consider a traditional rhythm game, I can give a few recommendations. But Beat Saber isn't that, it's related but doing something different. When all is said and done, I hope your opinion isn't the one that wins out when the devs end up making their decisions.

Edit: I want to be clear, I get stuff like the cube debris and I'm sure any bugs you are experiencing are heavily coloring your opinion. But I stand by everything I said regarding the design of the game.

[FINSullivan]

Original expert songs were amazing. A tad too easy maybe but fun to play and hard to master.
If you have played BS for a week, you can first time finish all the expert songs. Not FC or with any good scores but still finish the song.
The new songs feel like dev's went for the "let's make this hard as possible" forgetting the fun aspect of the game. Let's put a note there and note here. Made the song completely different how it played on expert. Easy, normal, hard, expert you can see how the difficulty develops.
Then there is expert+ that seems like whole different song. Same music is playihng but none of the familiar notes are there.
Even after me and my friend have played BS over a month we can't finish the new songs without having to memorize most of the blocks. And we don't really care about that so most likely we won't be playing those maps much. Shame.
If memorization is what you like, ok cool. I don't expect most of the BS players to like it.
I know it's hard to debate what is fun for everyone.
But i really don't see any surprise how badly community has taken this update.
Too big, too radical changes.
For a game like this it should not be impossible to add more game modes.
Freemode for "casual" players, kind a like it used to be before the update and highscores.
Pro mode for players who like to memorize songs and play expert+ etc songs, hidden notes, faster notes and highscores.
Even a custom side where you can change variables. Speed, size etc.
All modes have their own highscore lists.
This way BS could please so many different type of players.

[Tenor Sounds]

I mean, it's expert+. It's supposed to be extremely difficult, it's supposed to be an ultimate challenge for those that mastered expert. Treating the Expert+ maps like they're supposed to be content updates on par with new songs, being upset because they're too difficult and so you feel they don't have value, makes me think that the community's expectations were set by the community songs and not the developers' actual design tendencies. Which is part of the problem I'm talking about.

Sure, add games modes that let everyone be happy. I have every expectation that by the end we'll have something that looks like what you're talking about. I sure as heck hope they feel they've perfected the base game before they get distracted by that, though.

[FINSullivan]

Yeah i admit. I'm too harsh. I can't really articulate my self perfectly in english what i would like to say. Comes out much more hostail than intended.
But ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ i'm allowed to be mad when a game that i have been enjoying for the past month (ups and downs with saber issues) suddenly turns all weird. Nothing feels the same, everything is off. Not being able to turn sounds or sabers back the way they were is just icing on the cake.
And the new expert+ songs were made for memorization like some custom songs which i hate the most. I just hate that way of mapping songs. Seems cheap way to up difficulty in my oppinion.
I played this almost daily after work. I do still have some hope for BS getting fixed/tweaked/modded/rollbacked personally if nothing else.

[Maltsi]

i could pretty much do all of them with 1 try, not that hard even. BUT angels voice is just straight up impossible

[TEST]

I genuinely can't say that I see what you're talking about. The Expert+ are poorly charted, that I agree with, but they aren't impossible in any way. They are only awkwardly made, with a few swings that seemingly promote injury (I've actually smacked my own hand while playing one, thank god I was only swinging lightly)

Although I have beaten a few of them on my first or second try. I'm not saying "git gud", but a good amount of your complaints seems to stem from the fact that you're not as skilled, and I'm not saying that as an insult either, there's nothing wrong with not being skilled, but the problem comes from you stating your subjective experience as objective. No, it doesn't take 2 hours to understand the mechanics, it took me only a few minutes, and I could beat a few levels on expert within 2 hours.

Also, can't say that I've ever had the technical difficulties that you have had.

[FINSullivan]

What i have gathered so far. I'm not playing the same game most of you are after the update.
I have played nothing but expert and expert+ songs for over a month. Some custom songs were only hard difficulty but that is not the point. I know i'm not the best player but above average for sure. #1 on few custom songs. In the top 10 on some and top 20 others.
Got my accuracy around 93% at best but always had issues with some notes giving few points eventho i hit them the right way. In slowmotion i see my saber stop for a millisecond in mid air which then probably resets the angle and gets registered as a bad hit. Pretty sure it's a tracking issue.
Expert+ songs that are kind a high speed usually required 20+ tries to even clear once without saber flying into the distance or stop moving in x/y axel, only angle was chaning. Fixes by itself after few seconds. Eventually got auto pause mod that helped a little.
But now after the update everything feels off, looks off, sounds off.
Played original songs expert which i used to S or SS rank, now got only C rank. My mind was blown.
Tried the expert+ songs, i just got annoyed. Friend messaged me that he tried them all few times and was not able to finish any of them. Guy who had finished many expert+ songs before i did (only one i can remember by name atm is bubble tea - dark cat)
For some reason i have to hunch down to hit mid height notes and high notes are on my face level. Reset oculus floor position but that didn't help. No option in game anymore to change height which used to have a clear effect.
I will probably try BS again today after clean re-install. First without mods and then with all the essential mods installed.
I'll update here how it goes.

[FINSullivan]

After BS re-install i'm getting S and SS ranks again from original expert songs.
Tried again 100$ on expert+ and i got farther this time with only one try than ever before.
But it doesnt make the map any better. Still mapped in bad way in my oppinion. And i have my doubts anyone clearing them on 1st try even if they say so.
Did not try installing any mods today. Maybe tomorrow and see how it goes.
-I found less debris option and height option from the player settings.
Complaining about those is my bad. Missed the whole player settings first 2 times i tried BS after update. Unless that was added in the hotfix.
I don't know why BS at deafault thinks i'm 1,7m when i'm 2m and it's even in my oculus settings.
This explains why notes were too low for me.
Now my biggest issue with this update is that there is only one scoreboard for all variables.
Correct me if i'm wrong here. 100$ bills expert rank #1 has 900k points, not possible normally.
You can forget getting to the top 10 with playing vanilla expert difficulty. You have to use the disappearing arrows and faster speed to get highest possible scores.
If i'm not into upping the difficulty but still care to climb on the scoreboard. It's just not possible to me anymore.
I'm sure many players compete with each other who is higher on the score boards. Now you will never know who played vanilla and who used variables to get better scores.

[Tenor Sounds]

Wanted to paste this here in case you didn't see it from the other thread:

So as it turns out, some Oculus users on reddit found a trick to help with tracking issues during games like Beat Saber that require quick movement. It involves sticking in an extra spring into the battery compartment, here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/a2h7o4/psa_adding_an_additional_spring_to_the_battery/

The spring you're looking for is #86 at ACE Hardware, I plan on doing this myself at the earliest convenience.

[Adolf_Tiller]

i finished breezer with a B on my first time so yeah....

[FINSullivan]

Tenor Sounds původně napsal:

Wanted to paste this here in case you didn't see it from the other thread:

So as it turns out, some Oculus users on reddit found a trick to help with tracking issues during games like Beat Saber that require quick movement. It involves sticking in an extra spring into the battery compartment, here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/a2h7o4/psa_adding_an_additional_spring_to_the_battery/

The spring you're looking for is #86 at ACE Hardware, I plan on doing this myself at the earliest convenience.

Thank you. Will definitely try this.

[Sili]

actuall kind of appreciate the expert plus difficulties...

the stnadard songs were just boring. Now I can probably use the modifiers to get them to a point where I'll have to pay attention.

[PanalaKala]

FINSullivan původně napsal:

There are many ways to map songs but the way devs did new expert+ difficulty songs are stupid.
This is a memory game now. You have to memorize most of the blocks and their position.
There is no way anyone can finish new expert+ songs with their 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th try like you can many other songs.
This is one of the worst ways to map songs.
It's not a rythm/reaction based game anymore at all. It's a stupid memory game.
It was fun to play songs a few times per day trying to get better scores than my friends.
New levels you need to play over and over and over again until you remember the whole level.
Devs please don't be bethesda or blizzard. Don't lose touch on your fans.
Read the feedback and reflect on it.
Why does BS feel now like it's a PS4 console port designed for PS4 VR and not for PC VR?
I played BS almost daily, now i don't even want to launch the game because of this update.
I'm rolling back to the beta version and will be playing it probably long after the full release if this is the direction BS is going.
Glad modders exist who can still bring alot of content.
I can't believe devs didn't even update most used mods in the game like highscore visualizer, debris remover, progress counter, auto pause etc. So many must have mods.
2 days with this update was enough for me. It's playable but not enjoyable.

Update:
After BS re-install i'm getting S and SS ranks again from original expert songs.
Tried again 100$ on expert+ and i got farther this time with only one try than ever before.
But it doesn't make the map any better. Still mapped in bad way in my opinion. And i have my doubts anyone clearing them on 1st try even if they say so.
Did not try installing any mods today. Maybe tomorrow and see how it goes.
-I found less debris option and height option from the player settings.
Complaining about those is my bad. Missed the whole player settings first 2 times i tried BS after update. Unless that was added in the hotfix.
I don't know why BS at deafault thinks i'm 1,7m when i'm 2m and it's even in my oculus settings.
This explains why notes were too low for me.
Now my biggest issue with this update is that there is only one scoreboard for all variables.
Correct me if i'm wrong here. 100$ bills expert rank #1 has 900k points, not possible normally.
You can forget getting to the top 10 with playing vanilla expert difficulty. You have to use the disappearing arrows and faster speed to get highest possible scores.
If i'm not into upping the difficulty but still care to climb on the scoreboard. It's just not possible to me anymore.
I'm sure many players compete with each other who is higher on the score boards. Now you will never know who played vanilla and who used variables to get better scores.

I'm a Beat Saber player myself on the PS4. I have completed all songs on Expert+ (Except Angel Voices) and very much enjoyed this game. However when I crossed over this discussion and read through it the first time, I was not happy. So I read the post multiple times to give out my opinion as much as possible.

FINSullivan původně napsal:

Why does BS feel now like it's a PS4 console port designed for PS4 VR and not for PC VR?

One point of view why the devs are focused on the ps4 version is because the ps4 is limited to stuff. They're wanting to bring more content to PS4 players so they can continue enjoying the game. I don't know why y'all pc players are complaining about "Devs not looking out on PC." Pc players have help from modders that can create new sabers, songs, backgrounds, change certain text, have avatars etc. And also PC players have multiplayer, while Ps4 has none of the listed above. Yes, we did have songs that were exclusive to us but you guys can just create them near accurate or wait until the devs release the songs onto PC another time.

My first run through the songs on expert+ felt like an adrenaline rush. But after going through songs one by one, it took a lot of practice and sweat but it was worth it just to see a song that I passed. I feel like now that the difficulty spike goes to: Expert - Being a hard run through but can be easily do-able. To Expert+ - Being the most exhausting run through you've ever will play. But as I got more into Expert+ it felt like something that I can challenge myself time after time, and I have yet to full combo even one song on Expert+.

FINSullivan původně napsal:

This is a memory game now. You have to memorize most of the blocks and their position.
There is no way anyone can finish new expert+ songs with their 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th try like you can many other songs.

That's what a rhythm game is. How else are going to full combo a song? Are you expecting to complete the game first try? When I showed my friends this game to try out on my PS4. It's not like I expected them to full combo Angel Voices on Hard 10 minutes in.You're not meant to complete stuff on your first run. Games aren't meant to be completed in their first playthrough, everyone had that point of losing and trying again like; you, me, and a LOT of other people whom play games for a living.

FINSullivan původně napsal:

Still mapped in bad way in my opinion. And i have my doubts anyone clearing them on 1st try even if they say so.

Yes, the songs can be hard because of there position. But people whom actually passed an Expert+ song on their first try must of had a lot of hours placed into the game and can really challenge themselves onto any song. The songs lines up great in the beat of the songs, most of the time it's not meant to just be the blocks line up to the sounds of the instruments playing, but also the beat, the tempo. Think of it as the song/songs is charting all the parts in the music and not just parts of the music like, e.g. the singer, the drums, etc.

If you still feel like Beat Saber is so down because of either the new updates or just the devs feel like they're not helping PC players, PS4 Beat Saber has only the devs that can help because it's impossible to mod on PS4 while PC, it's a simple touch and click. Even the devs said that PS4 players will not have customs for their liking.