Modifiers Shouldn't Affect Leaderboards

[Shrub]

I don't like that you can jump hundreds ahead for doing a ♥♥♥♥ job just because you slapped on some invisible quik bloks. I feel like it takes away from doing well at a song and instead doing well at a weird gimmick. Idk, what do y'all think about modifiers? I realised I forgot they existed for nearly a year, so do y'all ever fiddle with 'em?

[DaBa]

I don't even know what to tell you. It's the same as saying that song difficulty should not affect leaderboards, absolutely ridiculous. Modifiers can make the map harder or easier, that should be properly represented by the score you get. If you play a song at a faster speed, or with disappearing blocks, you should get more score since it's going to be harder. Simple.

[Enorats]

Yeah.. I could see modifiers disqualifying you from the leaderboard I suppose, but that would be punishing players for playing in a way that's fun to them. I've spent months playing E+ songs with fast mode and disappearing arrows.. playing without that feels like moving in slow motion, and is boring to me. The disappearing arrows is just a straight up score boost, as it's never affected me in the slightest even on a song I've never played before.

[Omnipotencia]

its called don't play the original maps which you shouldn't be doing anyways cause they are all terrible, custom songs revert the score back to what it would be without modifiers so i haven't used modifiers for ages now

[Shrub]

Publicado originalmente por DaBa:

I don't even know what to tell you. It's the same as saying that song difficulty should not affect leaderboards, absolutely ridiculous. Modifiers can make the map harder or easier, that should be properly represented by the score you get. If you play a song at a faster speed, or with disappearing blocks, you should get more score since it's going to be harder. Simple.

The different difficulties have separate leaderboards. If it makes a song harder or easier like easy~E+, wouldn't it make more sense to have a modifier leaderboard, something like EXTREME MODE ?

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Publicado originalmente por Enorats:

Yeah.. I could see modifiers disqualifying you from the leaderboard I suppose, but that would be punishing players for playing in a way that's fun to them. I've spent months playing E+ songs with fast mode and disappearing arrows.. playing without that feels like moving in slow motion, and is boring to me. The disappearing arrows is just a straight up score boost, as it's never affected me in the slightest even on a song I've never played before.

I get what you mean, I feel the exact same way, but it could work like the custom map leaderboards work,

Publicado originalmente por AetheriaPrism:

...custom songs revert the score back to what it would be without modifiers...

Alternatively, what do you think about having a separate leaderboard of extremists?

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Publicado originalmente por AetheriaPrism:

its called don't play the original maps which you shouldn't be doing anyways cause they are all terrible...

I don't like playing customs very often because I don't like sifting through the weebier Japanese songs and the intentionally over the top difficult songs. I found those... sensation something..? songs, those were a trip and the songs were absolute bangers. Do you have any recommendations?

[DaBa]

Publicado originalmente por Freyr:

Publicado originalmente por DaBa:

I don't even know what to tell you. It's the same as saying that song difficulty should not affect leaderboards, absolutely ridiculous. Modifiers can make the map harder or easier, that should be properly represented by the score you get. If you play a song at a faster speed, or with disappearing blocks, you should get more score since it's going to be harder. Simple.

The different difficulties have separate leaderboards. If it makes a song harder or easier like easy~E+, wouldn't it make more sense to have a modifier leaderboard, something like EXTREME MODE ?

That could work, however it would segment the leaderboards even more. Why would you do that? There's no practical benefit but you and some other people feeling better about their own skill level. You're not making the game any better, you just make yourself feel better. So no, it's already enough that the leaderboards are segmented by difficulty, and in that case it actually makes sense because maps are very different on different difficulties. Modifiers don't change the maps, only how difficult it is to clear them. And if you want to feel good about your skill level, you need to practice more and get better. That's all there's to it.

[Shrub]

Publicado originalmente por DaBa:

Publicado originalmente por Freyr:

The different difficulties have separate leaderboards. If it makes a song harder or easier like easy~E+, wouldn't it make more sense to have a modifier leaderboard, something like EXTREME MODE ?

That could work, however it would segment the leaderboards even more. Why would you do that? There's no practical benefit but you and some other people feeling better about their own skill level. You're not making the game any better, you just make yourself feel better. So no, it's already enough that the leaderboards are segmented by difficulty, and in that case it actually makes sense because maps are very different on different difficulties. Modifiers don't change the maps, only how difficult it is to clear them. And if you want to feel good about your skill level, you need to practice more and get better. That's all there's to it.

You make a fair point on segmenting them by 'maps' rather than difficulty, but since we're bringing in skill level, I placed top 6 on one of the 360 maps.

However I have an issue with this. Because I used modifiers, I've jumped ahead of people who might not have used them, but hit the blocks perfectly. I argue that person played more skillfully at the map than me, but I turned on a little mode that isn't much more difficult and creates a drastic difference in score. At least when I compete with people in custom leaderboards, I know everyone is on the same playing field, and if people want to make the song faster than I think is genuinely physically possible on some of those E+ custom songs, they have a button for that separately.

Another good example is my KD/A score. Top 30, it's alright, but I was around 100 before I turned on mods. I think I missed 4 blocks originally, but I missed a lot more playing with the new mode and it eclipsed my score. I didn't play the song better, I reacted to it faster and had decent memory. I personally feel like I did the song worse, but my score doesn't reflect that. I can't be proud of a regular E+ run, I now have to focus on a fast squeaky version.

Do you enjoy the modifiers personally, Daba? What is your take on the leaderboards?

[DaBa]

Publicado originalmente por Freyr:

Publicado originalmente por DaBa:

That could work, however it would segment the leaderboards even more. Why would you do that? There's no practical benefit but you and some other people feeling better about their own skill level. You're not making the game any better, you just make yourself feel better. So no, it's already enough that the leaderboards are segmented by difficulty, and in that case it actually makes sense because maps are very different on different difficulties. Modifiers don't change the maps, only how difficult it is to clear them. And if you want to feel good about your skill level, you need to practice more and get better. That's all there's to it.

You make a fair point on segmenting them by 'maps' rather than difficulty, but since we're bringing in skill level, I placed top 6 on one of the 360 maps.

However I have an issue with this. Because I used modifiers, I've jumped ahead of people who might not have used them, but hit the blocks perfectly. I argue that person played more skillfully at the map than me, but I turned on a little mode that isn't much more difficult and creates a drastic difference in score. At least when I compete with people in custom leaderboards, I know everyone is on the same playing field, and if people want to make the song faster than I think is genuinely physically possible on some of those E+ custom songs, they have a button for that separately.

Another good example is my KD/A score. Top 30, it's alright, but I was around 100 before I turned on mods. I think I missed 4 blocks originally, but I missed a lot more playing with the new mode and it eclipsed my score. I didn't play the song better, I reacted to it faster and had decent memory. I personally feel like I did the song worse, but my score doesn't reflect that. I can't be proud of a regular E+ run, I now have to focus on a fast squeaky version.

Do you enjoy the modifiers personally, Daba? What is your take on the leaderboards?

I think the issue comes from that we see modifiers differently. You seem to see them as some kind of a cheesy way to jump ahead of the competition, based on you saying that playing with modifiers does not make you more skillful than others. And that reacting to things faster does not mean you play the map better. I don't see them that way, I believe that they are a legitimate way to increase the challenge and prove the mastery of the map, and your superior skill level. Playing with them makes songs harder, some more than others. And playing a harder version of the song should mean you are more skillful. Even if you feel like the song isn't more difficult for you if you play with disappearing arrows, that's probably because you're skilled enough already for you to plow through it without issues. Even things like faster reactions or better memorization mean you are playing better than others, I can't see how you think that is not the case.

Do I enjoy them? I think so? Some of the mat least. I enjoy them when I have already cleared a map that I like on expert +, and want to push myself harder. I usually just use the faster song in that case, sometimes I do disappearing arrows. I don't really do disappearing blocks, since it feels weird and I am not a fan of that one. But I do not chase leaderboards usually, just for the maps that I really, REALLY like, and top 100 is usually enough for me (I did do disappearing blocks in those cases, for the sake of leaderboards). I did top 100 on 2 songs, but never bothered to keep it so probably fell from there already. I don't mind though, I just do it to challenge myself.

I do understand where you're coming from, because I have similar feelings to the disappearing blocks modifier. I don't really enjoy it, so it would be nice if it was not part of the scoring, or if it was not there at all. However, I know that this is a selfish argument and that it would not be fair to everybody else who may pride themselves on being able to clear maps with everything turned on. That's why I can't agree to take them out of the scoring system. Even if it meant creating a separate category, that would still be caused by my selfish reasoning and ultimately is not motivated by making the game better. And I don't see an objective improvement in doing that, it does the opposite by further fragmenting leaderboards. And it doesn't really solve the problem anyway, since you would have to play with all modifiers enabled anyway to score on that other leaderboard, people who may only do one or two will still be left in the dirt.

However, it would be interested to know what is the general consensus of the community, if there is one. If it turns out that, let's say 80% of the high level players said that they don't really like playing with modifiers, even though they play with them to score high, it would be a good enough reason to do what you said. No reason to keep something that the people who benefit from it don't like. But I don't think we'll ever know this and this will ever happen in any way. Interesting to think about though.

[Lucidic]

I saw this and decided to jump in, I feel like playing with some gimmicks should increase score for the actual leaderboards, but maybe the game could mention or tag those icons to show that the player had to put in a different amount of work to get their score, it could lead to more accurate scoring. Also, it might be possible to have filters on the leaderboards to show where you stand in relation to other settings, it would allow people to get their "true" placement while not segmenting the community's scores.

[DaBa]

Publicado originalmente por Lucidic:

I saw this and decided to jump in, I feel like playing with some gimmicks should increase score for the actual leaderboards, but maybe the game could mention or tag those icons to show that the player had to put in a different amount of work to get their score, it could lead to more accurate scoring. Also, it might be possible to have filters on the leaderboards to show where you stand in relation to other settings, it would allow people to get their "true" placement while not segmenting the community's scores.

Really good ideas. I would be on board with both of them!

[Kurtino]

I mean I think it's as simple as wanting to be compared against other players who are playing the game the same as you. If you're against that you might as well get rid of categories altogether, and merge Easy/Medium/Hard/Expert, or just disable being given a score unless you're playing Expert+ with all modifiers enabled.

If I want to compare my score to other players, I don't want their game play to be different to mine, and modifiers change that. The solution? I either have to play with all the modifiers enabled (which I don't like them, nothing to do with skill I just think they're lame), or I don't compete.

The concept is the same for segmenting score between difficulty, modes, etc, and it's sound logic that applies to almost all competitive fields. We segment speed run types because of this as well, because the fastest time would be redundant if someone was also playing by another criteria (fastest while doing X).

Otherwise you might as well disable score from anyone who isn't doing it with the maximum score modifiers active, because the score itself is redundant and doesn't actually report the player's performance because you have no indication of what they were doing. How do I know the difference between score A and B if I have no concept of what they had active to achieve it, unless I always assume all modifiers are present?

I don't get your push back for this DaBa, I don't think it has anything to do with the OP wanting to feel better about themself; are you really advocating for all modifiers being active as the only way to given a proper rating? The practical benefit is that you have accurate scoring or proper scoring categories, and players know where they ranked against others who played the same way as them.

EDIT: I suppose the problem is OP's proposal, but conceptually it's still a valid criticism. To disable scoring with modifiers that make the game more difficult is bad, but to segment them properly is good, and more scoring segmenting honestly isn't a negative thing because the best of the best will always be appropriately rated against themselves.

[Omnipotencia]

seperate scores are pointless the only reason for them is to see yourself in the top scores which i may add you have NO CHANCE even when modifiers are turned off all the ranked maps have like 300+ people with 96%-98% accuracy, and this is with both good maps and bad maps. quite simply either way you wont be in the top 10. the people in the top 300 play these maps over and over and can pretty much full combo with ghost notes and faster song. the only ones am in top 10 with are ones that people dont play like a lower difficulty or ones that not many have downloaded anyways. sure faster song would be nice then i could play some slower songs with faster song like i used to but the more you play slower songs the further behind you get with catching up. i dont even play for the score anymore especially ranked ones since people take them way to seriously rather than just playing them all for fun. also i dont play ranked for the simple reason they will allow bs map layouts with 1 difficulty but wont allow a good map with glitched walls