Only playing Beat Saber. Which headset is for me?

[ball]

I'm completely new to VR and I only plan on playing Beat Saber. Since it's just one game, I'm a bit hesitant to drop a thousand dollars on the Index, and I wanted to get opinions from people who actually play the game instead of just tech reporters. Obviously the Rift S and Quest are quite new, but I'm open to opinions about those as well. Thank you!

EDIT: Thank you all for the insight; so far I've ruled out Quest (I have a VR-Ready PC) and WMR (I plan on leaderboard chasing). Index pushes the budget a bit, but I won't rule it out just yet.

[Chaunsey]

Messaggio originale di Numenorean:

This thing of the 144Hz remind me the 4K craze, and before that, the MHz craze, and before that, the 16/32/64 Bit craze :)

Every generation of gamers get stuck with some sort of "measurement unit" and think that that's all that is required for a great gaming experience.

People will swear on their own firstborn that if you have X or Y, you are good to go :) Then the fun part is that when they play a game without knowing the specs or hardware setup, they won't even tell the difference between 45 and 60 FPS, or between 75 and 90 or 120 Hz .

It is the nature of the beast; people that are not engineers and have limited understanding of how things works; try to limit everything to one factor or metric; to simplify everything.

You can find blind study proving that neither refresh rate on a screen or on a VR headset makes a difference, when the software is optimized (the only ones affected are the ones more prone to motion sickness); unless you go below 60Hz for monitors and 70Hz for HMD/headsets.

Same goes for 4K panels...people rating panels with the same refresh rate, response time and luminosity; were not able to tell the difference between 4K resolution and 1080P, unless they were side by side. Our brain adapt pretty easily; and at this point, the increase in resolution is not as dramatic as it was when we moved from 640x480 to 1024x768 to 1080p. You could tell a Vhs from a DVD from a Blu ray at glance; because the delta was quite considerable.

Long story short; if you play competitive E-sports; you need low latency because few milliseconds makes the difference; but in most cases, you are just fine with average components

all of those things absolutely make huge differences and not just at the professional level.

and in VR the differences between various levels of tech are even more extreme and noticeable.

[Alternity]

Yeah, I already see the enormous difference between 60fps and 144fps on a flat screen, I can only imagine how immersive 144hz would be for VR. I actually don't even want to experience it unless I have the cash for an Index because I know it's going to be hard to go back to 90fps after experiencing 144fps in VR, it already is for flatscreen.

With that said, you can play just fine at 90fps, but I can guarantee you that you will see and appreciate the difference in VR even more than flatscreen. So far everyone who tried the Index are saying the same and I don't doubt them at all.

Messaggio originale di ~<Gabwiel>~:

Messaggio originale di Numenorean:

You need a better computer; that is a sign that your computer can't keep up with the refresh rate.

Wrong
Oculus tracking is just bad for E-sport

Of course some people do manage to get high-scores on Beat Saber, but they have to play with Oculus' tracking limitations in mind
For exemple a famous problem : if you rotate your wrist too fast, the controller disconnect

(EDIT: Some people say they can't see a difference between 30 and 60hz (kinda extreme), this depends on who you're talking to)

It has nothing to do with the computer, it's the batteries that looses connection because of the G-forces, it's fixable if you put something inside to keep the batteries in place.

[Grebo Punter]

Messaggio originale di Numenorean:

You can find blind study proving that neither refresh rate on a screen or on a VR headset makes a difference, when the software is optimized (the only ones affected are the ones more prone to motion sickness); unless you go below 60Hz for monitors and 70Hz for HMD/headsets.

I'd be quite interested to find out what exact HMDs were being tested in this blind study since the first commercially available modern HMD over 90hz just became available. So it must have been some top secret lab that somehow had experimental displays not manufactured by any of the few companies that can actually make them.

70 to 90 is a modest jump, but certainly noticeable if you wave your controller or any tracked object around or are simulating high speed movement. 90hz to 144hz is significant gain.

I suspect we will find out over time that for VR, even 144hz will be considered slow even for casual use, and 240hz+ will probably eliminate a huge amount of VR sickness issues in a lot of people.

[KingR17]

As someone who has owned and tested a number of VR headsets, I’ll throw my hat into the ring.

To get a few of the direct comparisons out of the way. OLED (Rift CV1 & Vive) will have deeper blacks than LCD (Rift S, Quest, Index). The Rift and Vive are both basically identical in specifications. They’re both also 90Hz. You can hit higher resolutions and refresh rates on LCD than OLED. And the Index features 3x as many sub-pixels, higher resolution, higher refresh rate, and lowered motion blur when compared against the vive and rift cv1. Comparing the features of the currently available lcd headsets, the Rift S and Quest both have lower refresh rate (80Hz) and higher resolution panels than the vive and rift cv1, while having lower resolution compared to the index.

On to some of the downsides. The rift s and quest both use inside out tracking. The index has some glare problems due to the doubled fresnel lenses catching more light and filtering that light to the edges of the lenses. The so-called ‘god rays’ are actually from light from the displays getting caught in the grooves of the lenses. (Fresnel lens comparison: https://jarphys.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/fresnel.jpg?w=500&h=583 ) Aside from the reduced color fidelity, glare and your normal rma-worthy issues, the index’s overall benefits outweigh the downsides. Moving on from your standard resolution and refresh rate comparisons, on to the main differences between headsets, tracking. When considering headsets, right now no mainstream consumer headset completely eliminates the screen door effect, and as a result, that means you’re mainly looking for the best experience. And the best experience generally translates to the best setup, tracking, and ergonomics. Out of those three, tracking and setup go hand in hand, and ergonomics can vary from person to person. So below I’ve tried to go over the different tracking methods as well as some of the caveats to each system.

Inside out tracking in general isn’t going to be practical for leaderboard hunting compared to any outside in system due to worse cross referencing between sensors, and occlusion issues.

Because both the original rift and the steamVR headsets (i.e. Vive, Index, Pimax) have hardware outside of the play space with two or more angles on the edges of your play space facing in, you won’t get any occlusion issues where your hand, arm, or anything else in your play space might be blocking the direct line of sight to your controllers. In addition to the occlusion issues, you also get worse tracking in positions where only one camera can see your controller, because it can’t cross reference the position of your hand between two cameras.

For me (as someone who is also grinding the leaderboards ~1200’s globally), those caveats rule out inside out tracking this generation for the sole reason of poorer tracking than the outside-in competition. Which for me makes it a comparison between the different available inside out tracking headsets.

Discussing the original rift. While it’s possible to get a good tracking experience at the high level of beat saber for some people, it’s not easy to get that perfect experience and the hardware has many caveats and shortcomings. Even the AtomicX, who had the number one spot on the leaderboards for quite a while (until his headset broke) still had countless tracking dropouts and lag spikes. https://youtu.be/iNxRUI86_0k You also have to consider some other variables. While 3 sensors is preferred for room scale VR with the rift, most people who are at the top of the leaderboards only use the two front sensors and don’t use the back sensors. Rift sensors are notorious for changing from usb 3.0 to 2.0, overusing bandwidth, being power throttled by your computer, having signal dropouts, and being an all around pain (Firsthand experience with those issues, across multiple computers and multiple headsets). You also have to keep in mind that the original rift requires wires between the sensors and your computer. Each sensor requires a USB port on your computer, and an additional USB port for your headset. A full 3 sensor setup requires 3 usb 3.0 ports and 1 usb 2.0 port so you don’t oversaturated your bandwidth. Mileage may vary if you have other devices plugged in. I bought the recommended expansion card and used that for two of the sensors, and had the hmd and 2.0 sensor plugged into my motherboard. However I still had lost tracking, dropouts and similar issues. I contacted oculus support, got a refurb from them to replace the old headset (after exhausting their troubleshooting options, including trying another computer, another play area, making sure all power options were optimal, and a bunch of other issues). I still have the same issues with the new headset, which leads me to believe the rift’s software is to blame, or some issue with the bandwidth saturation in general. Seeing as they basically encourage buying usb expansion cards for room scale. Now you can manage to do roomscale with two sensors, though again your mileage may vary, and the space covered would be smaller than a full 3 sensor setup. I bought my rift for a very nice price, around $300 new from oculus directly with some sales and discounts applied, so I spent about 2 months messing around with my setup and settings to no avail.

At that point I jumped ship to vive dropping $600 for the headset and deluxe audio strap. Now, while the rift does all of the tracking through sensors around the room which all need bandwidth and power which they draw directly from your computer, the vive only tracks through sensors on the headset itself, and has a break off for power from a wall adapter. So in total, for a roomscale setup with a vive (or index), you would need two ports on your computer. A USB 3.0 port and an HDMI port. DisplayPort is needed for the base kit Index. An adapter for USB-C for the Index is available as well. USB-C is supported by Nvidia 20 series GPUs and would cut that down to one connection for both video and tracking. Compare that to the five connections required for the rift and that might be something worth considering too. Anyway, the vive uses sensors on the headset itself and the controllers to pick up spinning laser waves from the lighthouses and based on the angle of the lasers entering the sensors or just the visibility of the lasers from various sensors on the headset or controllers, it can determine where the objects are in space. As a result, the lighthouses aren’t transmitting any actual data, they’re only there to provide sort of a laser grid for your headset to navigate within. And because of this, you only need to power the base stations, they don’t need to be connected to your computer at all (save for a quick update during setup). The tracking is terrific, I set it up and had it running within maybe 10-15 minutes (you need to update the controllers and lighthouses by plugging them in and following some simple instructions in the steamVR application).

Something else I haven’t seen mentioned, but steamVR headsets and controllers are somewhat cross compatible. For example I can upgrade my vive headset to an index and still have the controllers and 1.0 base stations and it would work fine. Or, you could just upgrade the controllers and keep the vive and 1.0 base stations, which is what I did. However in the long run it would still set you back an extra $250-380 (price range extrapolated from: $500 for just the vive, $100 optional audio strap, then buying either the index hmd and controllers separately $500 & $280, or bundled for $750). So if you have the budget, from an long term standpoint, I would buy the index. If you don’t, or you just want ‘good enough’, then I would recommend the vive. You don’t have to deal with the headache that is oculus tracking, or support Facebook (which has been pretty anti-competitive in the VR market). And if something breaks, you can buy a replacement/upgrade from valve instead of dealing with HTC’s legendary terrible support.

TL;DR:
Inside out tracking has a number of caveats, mainly with occlusion, which others have mentioned.

Rift has poor software and needs 5 tethers to your computer which can oversaturate your bandwidth and power draw, plus an expansion card for full roomscale VR.

SteamVR headsets need one or two connections to your computer, they use a wall adapter for power, and they have future upgradability.

If you have the budget, get the index. It’ll cost less in the long run compared to buying a vive and upgrading piece-meal over time. If you don’t have the money but still want the best budget experience, get the vive. It has stellar tracking, simple setup, and a lightweight installation.

Thank you for reading through, I hope it has been helpful.

[Gabwiel]

Messaggio originale di KingR17 | LFT:

As someone who has owned and tested a number of VR headsets, I’ll throw my hat into the ring.
[...]
Thank you for reading through, I hope it has been helpful.

<3

[Numenorean]

Messaggio originale di ~<Gabwiel>~:

Messaggio originale di Numenorean:

You need a better computer; that is a sign that your computer can't keep up with the refresh rate.

Wrong
Oculus tracking is just bad for E-sport

Of course some people do manage to get high-scores on Beat Saber, but they have to play with Oculus' tracking limitations in mind
For exemple a famous problem : if you rotate your wrist too fast, the controller disconnect

(EDIT: Some people say they can't see a difference between 30 and 60hz (kinda extreme), this depends on who you're talking to)

Tracking is based on frequency; frequency is bound to the cycles of the hardware on which you run...this is electronics 101.

Nobody was designing VR headsets with such activities in mind; as such the fact that oculus tracking is not that great, is not a limitation of the system per se, but a mere consequence of the fact that you are using something in a way for which it was not designed.

maybe 10% of gamers are interested in e-sports for money; the rest just enjoy games; as such, unless someone sponsor highly responsive devices, the market offer what the majority of people use.

[Numenorean]

Messaggio originale di Chaunsey:

all of those things absolutely make huge differences and not just at the professional level.

and in VR the differences between various levels of tech are even more extreme and noticeable.

Where? How? In some limited cases maybe.

Technology has been bound to 2 major rules: it has to be cheap to make and easy to sell, and it has to be catered for the majority of people to maximize return.

The exceptions are niche market; where you target the odd balls; the ones that don't buy average products; and that is a market on its own.

Betamax was better than VHS, but lost due to poor diffusion; same for many other technologies.
Remember the gameboy? Sold more than Gamegear, PcengineGT and Lynx together; even if it was the inferior one.

Don't just assume that "better" means successful; there are plenty of examples where market penetration and diffusion made the difference; which is why Oculus is going for cheap HMD and Valve for the other side of the spectrum.

[Numenorean]

Messaggio originale di Grebo Punter:

I'd be quite interested to find out what exact HMDs were being tested in this blind study since the first commercially available modern HMD over 90hz just became available. So it must have been some top secret lab that somehow had experimental displays not manufactured by any of the few companies that can actually make them.

70 to 90 is a modest jump, but certainly noticeable if you wave your controller or any tracked object around or are simulating high speed movement. 90hz to 144hz is significant gain.

I suspect we will find out over time that for VR, even 144hz will be considered slow even for casual use, and 240hz+ will probably eliminate a huge amount of VR sickness issues in a lot of people.

If you are curious, you have internet at your disposal...hop on it and search data.

There is no secret factory anywhere; prototypes of high frequency HMD are going around for a while; although they were never made available because as you probably already know; there was no such machine able to keep up with that tech.

48 or 72 Hz as refresh rate; are common for movies; LCD screen use a standard 60Hz as refresh rate, unless they interpolate frames or reduce the activation time of the pixels (takes time for the energy to enter and leave a pixel on a panel; physics is what it is; there is no magic); as such, we are dealing with the same problems for years, and the limit is just the capability of a computer, the lcd technology available, and the lack of creative ways to fool physics.

What you see as 120 or 144 Hz are clever tricks implemented to increase the refresh rate. it is a number; that per se means very little; unless you are aware of it and get used to it.
People "perceive" it "better" at higher refresh rate, because our retina is full of rods; which are sensitive to movement; as such the rapid refresh rate give the impression that the image is better; while at lower refresh rate, the brain has to interpolate the missing images, and it feels more "choppy".

We can go further in the rabbit hole; but you can read few books about how human vision, the brain and such works together, and have a better idea about these topics; explained better that how I can present them.

Also the refresh rate is one thing; the response time of wired or wireless devices is another; when you wave your controller, the response time is affected by many factors; while the refresh on screen is tied to the clock signal that send the refresh... more books to read here too.

[Jak]

>buys the index, the latest of tech with advanced controls, finger tracking, hi res screen
>plays beat saber and only beat saber, a game with no controls other than “swing hand” and “click button”

thats a doo doo idea

[Lazarus {FATE}]

Messaggio originale di Numenorean:

Messaggio originale di ~<Gabwiel>~:

++++
I have an Oculus Rift and when I do fast movements the Touch controllers can sometimes disconnect for ~0.5scd

Also the tracking is far less precise

You need a better computer; that is a sign that your computer can't keep up with the refresh rate.

^^^
Lol... you made my day with that comment, I almost spewed my coffee everyehere.

A new PC to simply remedy a loose battery?

Some aluminum foil and a bit of padded shelf liner, fixes the disconnect issue 99.9999% of the time.

[DaBa]

Messaggio originale di flank class:

>buys the index, the latest of tech with advanced controls, finger tracking, hi res screen
>plays beat saber and only beat saber, a game with no controls other than “swing hand” and “click button”

thats a doo doo idea

Nah, Index controllers are more ergonomic than the wands anyway. Even if you don't use finger tracking it's still a big improvement. Also, new tech is always cool.

[Jak]

Messaggio originale di DaBa:

Messaggio originale di flank class:

>buys the index, the latest of tech with advanced controls, finger tracking, hi res screen
>plays beat saber and only beat saber, a game with no controls other than “swing hand” and “click button”

thats a doo doo idea

Nah, Index controllers are more ergonomic than the wands anyway. Even if you don't use finger tracking it's still a big improvement. Also, new tech is always cool.

They may be more ergonomic, but would you be willing to pay the 1k just for a better grip on your controllers? You could be making use of the controls in so many ways, use the high resolution in onward, using the finger tracking for upcoming VR games like bone works. not saying beat saber isn’t fun in the index, I bet it is, but the technology is too advanced for a simplistic game like beat saber

[Alternity]

It's worth it just for the refresh rate. I can see how low 90hz is just by swinging my sabers.

Though I'd admit the knuckles are probably much more fun in Audica for the throwing mechanics. But... if the modders update the avatar mod for the knuckles it might be worth it, depending on how good they make the update.

[Numenorean]

Messaggio originale di Heerz Johnny:

Messaggio originale di Numenorean:

You need a better computer; that is a sign that your computer can't keep up with the refresh rate.

^^^
Lol... you made my day with that comment, I almost spewed my coffee everyehere.

A new PC to simply remedy a loose battery?

Some aluminum foil and a bit of padded shelf liner, fixes the disconnect issue 99.9999% of the time.

Got a degree in electronics and the ability to check battery level at a distance?

Kudos Sir; I am bowing to you :) Aluminum foil is good for hats...

[Prince Vegeta]

No issues here on 4 sensor setup through usb 3.0 for my Rift.