Remove Max HP loss on Revives

[Ninja Sakura]

As title suggests its please remove the max hp loss on revive for both the person who revives and the person being revived.

It's very counterproductive to let people join your multiplayer session partly through a run. They don't have the relics to be as close to the people already in the run. They die, you res them, you lose your health, they lose their max health, rinse and repeat.

It doesn't make progression or multiplayer any fun later in the levels due to this. Its harder to make any improvement.

[Sir Sunkruhm]

I'm not really sure how someone can catch up midway through a run tbh. Would recommend you only do multiplayer from fresh runs. If I recall right in HoH1 they did a thing where if you died and were revived, you and the person you revived were soul linked and if either of you died then you'd both die. This is at least a better system comparatively. I'm mixed on the concept of removing a penalty altogether in a roguelite like this as it could trivialize a lot of things if players don't have to play carefully.

[Lambi]

But the problem is that revives NEEDS to be penalized. If anything, this system is infinitely more forgiving than revives in the first game.

[derw4tz]

honestly i liked the old system better; the soul link mechanic upped the ante and once you were linked you really locked in and focused on the game
this alllowed to play aggressive pre link and conservative after link, i really loved it

the soul link altough is much worse if you play with someone that plays not as good as you so the curren system is better for players with bigger skill gaps

think there should just be an option in the church to choose between these two options so players can pick and nothing is lost

[SinfulMonk]

would be kind of cool if the max health debuff could be cleansed at a well/fountain

[Gharvar]

There should be some sort of penalty when you get the advantage of multiple players compared to solo play.

[tosch]

Yeah, I very much disagree with this. There needs to be consequences to death and I think this is more fun (but also more forgiving) than in HoH1, although I liked the soul link mechanic as well.

Maybe it would be cool to have the possibility to clear the penalty in higher stages with rare spawns (like the cemetary in HoH1). But I'm very muchg against removing the mechanic altogehter.
Just don't join mid run.

[Sun_House]

I agree that deaths need to be penalized but think the current system of max hp penalties incentivizes really bad gameplay patterns.

Because it's % of max hp as a penalty, classes with lots of HP are penalized more intensely, which incentivizes you to make your low HP players dedicated rezzers. Why should I sacrifice 60 or 70 max hp when someone else in my party would only have to sacrifice 20 or 30? Dedicated rezzers end up feeling like they're playing the game on Weenie Mode where they end up with so little HP they can't really engage in fights without constantly dying.

It also incentivizes better players to foist rezzing off onto less good players in the group ("I'm too good/strong to weaken myself"). So the less good players end up also playing the game on Weenie Mode.

There's also a fundamental inequality in gameplay where someone else screwed up and died and now I have to significantly weaken myself in order to keep playing the game with my friends. Why am I punished for being the nice guy who stops fighting and looting to pick up my friend? I would be much more interested in a XP/resource penalty (loss of xp, loss of gold or other materials, loss of trinkets) instead of the current system.

I didn't play HOH1, but I think the spirit link was a better system. It created a penalty and increased risk for rezzing without necessarily creating the same bad gameplay patterns.

[JoeShmo]

The original game used extra lives, and that worked out just fine, despite some people / areas just sucking them all up instantly like lemmings.

I agree that when you start taking power away from players when they revive, you're basically setting them up to fail even quicker / easier the next time, and that's just a snowball effect that's not punishing .. it's cruel. It's actually worse than just having an xp loss in most games, because at least in those situations you can just gain that xp back because of an infinite grinding mechanism. When you play a rogue-like though, and your runs are locked in / finite .. an xp loss is pretty brutal; but at least on a much lower scale than straight up losing 10% of your survivability.

If' you're going to make it so they can't even continue on after 5 or so deaths .. you might as well just stick with the lives system; that way a player can still function at 100% , but are still penalized by having chances before they're kicked from the game / run.

It's such a weird / archaic / masochistic game design to just make your runs increasingly worse for a mistake, it should just be a game over at that point. I remember the days of arcade shmups and as soon as your plane / ship got hit once, you'd lose all your power ups and the run was basically over, even when you had a bunch of extra lives remaining. Because you'd had nothing to survive with now .. you're basically back to level 1 in a level 8 area. Seriously, terrible mechanic.

[Nei]

I think the penalty is fine but it should not be a permanent thing and it should decay over time imo

or they can have the revived keep the penalty permanently but the reviver has a decaying version of it

[Minnels]

Originally posted by Nei:

I think the penalty is fine but it should not be a permanent thing and it should decay over time imo

or they can have the revived keep the penalty permanently but the reviver has a decaying version of it

I disagree. Once you put that function in some people feel the need to go AFK just to get rid of the debuff just like some feel the need to passively regen all HP as it is right now.

[XXMIGHTYASLC]

So I had a 8-12 runs today with team mates lower than level 5 and kept dying which mean every revive cost your own health and by the end of the boss stage I only had less than 60hp from 228 of all those revives in the few maps.
I couldn’t beat the boss because my hp was too low to keep up.
I finally beat the boss by playing solo and finished the demo 😌

[Nei]

Originally posted by Minnels:

Originally posted by Nei:

I think the penalty is fine but it should not be a permanent thing and it should decay over time imo

or they can have the revived keep the penalty permanently but the reviver has a decaying version of it

I disagree. Once you put that function in some people feel the need to go AFK just to get rid of the debuff just like some feel the need to passively regen all HP as it is right now.

there are multiple ways to do decaying that does not involve AFK like progressing to floors could remove decay or killing elites maybe even vendors can remove the penalty they can even make it so you have to engage in active combat to remove the penalty

[epic meow]

i do kind of agree that it's BS in the cases where someone joins late or uses a lower lvl character but aside from that i think the current system is rly good, lowkey pretty genius in it's simplicity. reviving is poweful but still punishing. you can't brute force a run by mindlessly spamming revive due to the penalty, but it will always leave you with the hope of victory.

the soul link from hammerwatch 1 was thematically cool but a bit too punishing and unfair. hammerwatch 2 hits the balance juuuust right imo. if not for the fact that it punishes players for having a power gap inside the party, i might have called the system perfect.

maybe if they tied to penalty to the power level of the target being revived things would be better. for example by making it so the cost for a lvl 20 hero to revive a lvl 1 hero is basically nothing. as spamming (nearly) free revives shouldn't impact the difficulty much if the target being brought back is extremely weak.

[Drengr]

NO DONT REMOVE!!!!

[Emaldy]

I just want soul link back. It was a much more interesting mechanic. You don't even have to make it the only way, just give me the option. It was one of my favorite things in Heroes of Hammerwatch. Was super dissapointed to see it replaced with the kid gloves (Max HP loss for revives).