Possible Plot Hole? Am I missing something? [Major Spoilers]

[Kuiper]

At the beginning of the game, in Lobato's mind, Sasha, Milla, and the Coach mention that Lobato's mind had been "psychically booby-trapped" and that he had been made unable to mention who hired him. And the little flashback situation implied that his employer literally showed him psychic images of Maligula.

But at the end of the game, we find out the mastermind is notably not a psychic. And the clues exist throughout the game - particularly the dead psychic plants - that he was never psychic at any point.

Is this an intentional hole to theoretically be filled in a third game? (I.e. the person who helped boobytrap Lobato's mind will be important in the future) Or was the answer to who helped him pull off the psychic part of his plan in the game and I just missed it?

[Sharkinbear]

I'm also going to theorycraft here with you. So we know that there was body swapping involved and the involved parties were in fact psychic. It's how Raz was literally able to be pulled from someone else's mind, yea? So maybe just occupying a psychic's body gave him some psychic abilities.

[Runic Tunic]

Did the plants mean he wasn't psychic? All they were supposed to do was suck out the negative effects of the psylirium. Might have missed that detail.

I also assumed the villain was indeed psychic to some degree, or at least had an understanding of how to use tools to manipulate people psychically. He's placed in the psychoisolation chamber after his defeat.

[Crazy Ivan]

It's explicitly stated that Nick has no psychic powers, and he never displays any in game. The joke that's meant to give it away, is that the flowers which feed on psychic energy DIED when they were exposed to Nick's brain. There was no psychic energy to consume.

It feels like there is a missing level or some story that got cut, I agree. It's revealed that the Aquatto family are actually a separate branch of the Grullochio family, the fortune tellers that cursed the Aquatto acrobats. Why? As far as I can tell it's never really hit on or explained outside of just saying "Ford made it all up." But it's a fairly major plot point that Maligula's sister is the real Paternal-Grandmother of the Aquattos, and Psychics seem very important and respected in Grulovia before the deluge, so it seems weird for them to shrug it off by saying it's a bunch of made-up hooey that Cruller invented.

[Pikmanfan2002]

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

Did the plants mean he wasn't psychic? All they were supposed to do was suck out the negative effects of the psylirium. Might have missed that detail.

Lili states the plants are supposed to "feed off of his psychic energy," specifically talking about how "they keep dying!" The villain is not psychic to any degree, but it could be possible he was just threatening Loboto so much he stayed quiet... but that doesn't make much sense. Is the threat of Maligula's existence alone enough to make Loboto shut up forever? It should be noted you can see the Grulovian crown in Loboto's mind at multiple points disguised as a chandelier, but I'm unsure how much further it goes.

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by Pikmanfan2002:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

Did the plants mean he wasn't psychic? All they were supposed to do was suck out the negative effects of the psylirium. Might have missed that detail.

Lili states the plants are supposed to "feed off of his psychic energy," specifically talking about how "they keep dying!" The villain is not psychic to any degree, but it could be possible he was just threatening Loboto so much he stayed quiet... but that doesn't make much sense. Is the threat of Maligula's existence alone enough to make Loboto shut up forever? It should be noted you can see the Grulovian crown in Loboto's mind at multiple points disguised as a chandelier, but I'm unsure how much further it goes.

Ah ok. Thank you. Completely misread/heard that lol

yeah it's an odd plothole. I guess the threat of Maligula could be enough. People really freak out about her name. Though I feel like that alone isn't enough to explain how he pulls of what he does throughout the game.

As for the references to Gristol in Loboto's mind, I think there's evidence that it goes pretty far. Granted it's speculation, but I'm pretty sure "The World Shall Taste My Eggs!" Memory vault in the first Psychonauts might be a memory influence from both Loboto and Gristol. Specifically because of the egg reference and title, and Gristol's massive obsession with eggs. An obsession we've only seen with this character.

[Pikmanfan2002]

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

As for the references to Gristol in Loboto's mind, I think there's evidence that it goes pretty far. Granted it's speculation, but I'm pretty sure "The World Shall Taste My Eggs!" Memory vault in the first Psychonauts might be a memory influence from both Loboto and Gristol. Specifically because of the egg reference and title, and Gristol's massive obsession with eggs. An obsession we've only seen with this character.

I'm a little lost on what you mean here... the Brain Tumbler Experiment is a physical representation of Oleander's plan from the first game. Once you enter the caravan, you start out in an egg. Oleander also mutters about how "the whole world shall taste my eggs" while sleeping in the first game. Are you saying that Gristol somehow influenced Oleander via Loboto? It does seem like a very big coincidence that brains have been constantly referred to as "eggs." In the end, this just provides a connection to Oleander, someone who really doesn't seem to have anything to do with Gristol.

[WeissRook]

When going through the ride in Fatherland Follies, it heavily implies Nick DOES have some psychic power, especially the last part where it shows him doing psychic stuff. He may have purposely flubbed things to some degree to be put in the mail room for being super weak at psi powers, but he IS considered a Psychonaut, as are all the workers in the Motherlobe
And the plants were supposed to feed off the psilerium poisoning to cure Truman. What we see is that he's not actually poisoned, but he's just faking it so he can talk Raz into working for him
So he very well COULD booby trap Loboto's mind.

[WeissRook]

Originally posted by Pikmanfan2002:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

As for the references to Gristol in Loboto's mind, I think there's evidence that it goes pretty far. Granted it's speculation, but I'm pretty sure "The World Shall Taste My Eggs!" Memory vault in the first Psychonauts might be a memory influence from both Loboto and Gristol. Specifically because of the egg reference and title, and Gristol's massive obsession with eggs. An obsession we've only seen with this character.

I'm a little lost on what you mean here... the Brain Tumbler Experiment is a physical representation of Oleander's plan from the first game. Once you enter the caravan, you start out in an egg. Oleander also mutters about how "the whole world shall taste my eggs" while sleeping in the first game. Are you saying that Gristol somehow influenced Oleander via Loboto? It does seem like a very big coincidence that brains have been constantly referred to as "eggs." In the end, this just provides a connection to Oleander, someone who really doesn't seem to have anything to do with Gristol.

Technically he would have had to, at least indirectly, since he was working with Loboto to do it. It's unknown if Gristol was working with Loboto or not by that time, likely so if Gristol helped Loboto with his fish kingdom, since there's a memory vault showing Loboto working with those fish from when they were small.

This isn't even counting that EVERYONE seems to know Nick from the Mailroom and love him, all except Truman.

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by Pikmanfan2002:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

As for the references to Gristol in Loboto's mind, I think there's evidence that it goes pretty far. Granted it's speculation, but I'm pretty sure "The World Shall Taste My Eggs!" Memory vault in the first Psychonauts might be a memory influence from both Loboto and Gristol. Specifically because of the egg reference and title, and Gristol's massive obsession with eggs. An obsession we've only seen with this character.

I'm a little lost on what you mean here... the Brain Tumbler Experiment is a physical representation of Oleander's plan from the first game. Once you enter the caravan, you start out in an egg. Oleander also mutters about how "the whole world shall taste my eggs" while sleeping in the first game. Are you saying that Gristol somehow influenced Oleander via Loboto? It does seem like a very big coincidence that brains have been constantly referred to as "eggs." In the end, this just provides a connection to Oleander, someone who really doesn't seem to have anything to do with Gristol.

Not exactly. what I'm implying here is that since Loboto's and Oleandor collaborated, some evidence indicates that aspects of Loboto's mind may have crossed with Oleandor's in the Brain Tumbler. Which may have had a bit of Gristol's plans mixed in as well. But only a very little bit.

The reason I think this may be the case is that in the same area of the brain tumbler experiment, we see figments of chicks? I think? with rectangular holes cut out of their heads and running around in a panic. That same exact image is in the Rhombus of Ruin in Loboto's mind. He makes the same exact shaped tear into a bunch of his stuffed animals telepathically once Raz realizes that Loboto was a psychic.

Since those two things crossed over into Oleandor's mind, it's possible other, more vague things did as well. such as his interaction with Gristol and his odd egg obsession.

All a big stretch, I know. If anything I'm just providing possible evidence that might indicate the extent of Gristol's influence on Loboto.

[Kuiper]

Originally posted by WeissRook:

When going through the ride in Fatherland Follies, it heavily implies Nick DOES have some psychic power, especially the last part where it shows him doing psychic stuff. He may have purposely flubbed things to some degree to be put in the mail room for being super weak at psi powers, but he IS considered a Psychonaut, as are all the workers in the Motherlobe
And the plants were supposed to feed off the psilerium poisoning to cure Truman. What we see is that he's not actually poisoned, but he's just faking it so he can talk Raz into working for him
So he very well COULD booby trap Loboto's mind.

This isn't quite true. When Lili explains the plants, she says that the point of the plans was to feed off Truman's psychic energy, so that she could see what was wrong with him. They're a diagnosis tool, not a treatment - at least, that first set of plants. She'd likely have an idea of how to treat him with plant therapy after that diagnosis, but all her diagnostic psychic plants kept dying because there was no psychic energy to feed off.

And when we're first introduced to him, Forsythe says that he's "not a psychic, even." And all further information seems to hinting at him not being psychic. Unless there's something I missed about him "doing psychic stuff" in his mind - we see him meet Ford (but not mess with him) and drop into the Motherlobe (but using a Parachute to drop down, instead of levitation) and at the VERY end we see Maligula using water stuff to prop him up. So nothing that struck me as obviously Psychic?

[Pikmanfan2002]

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

All a big stretch, I know. If anything I'm just providing possible evidence that might indicate the extent of Gristol's influence on Loboto.

That all makes sense, but it still begs the question of how Loboto managed to break through the mental construct. The second Loboto seemed like it was supposed to represent someone's attempts at cleaning people out of his mind before they do stuff. It really does seem like Gristol was the sole person making Loboto shut up, considering he's the shadowy figure. Considering it seems like Loboto did eventually crack to Sasha, it really might've just been pure fear of Malugila. Therefore, the second Loboto was literally the part of Loboto so fearful, he would do anything to stop people? But that doesn't sound right...
Also, "put the egg in the basket, and the old egg in the box and the box in the ocean." Put Gristol's brain into Truman, but Truman's brain into the box... but what's the ocean? The ocean was previously referred to as the casino, but did the Psychonauts just come in and save Truman before Loboto could hide the brain?

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by WeissRook:

When going through the ride in Fatherland Follies, it heavily implies Nick DOES have some psychic power, especially the last part where it shows him doing psychic stuff. He may have purposely flubbed things to some degree to be put in the mail room for being super weak at psi powers, but he IS considered a Psychonaut, as are all the workers in the Motherlobe
And the plants were supposed to feed off the psilerium poisoning to cure Truman. What we see is that he's not actually poisoned, but he's just faking it so he can talk Raz into working for him
So he very well COULD booby trap Loboto's mind.

This is what I thought was the case during my first playthrough. But since there's some mixed opinion about it, I'll look it up and see for sure.

I'm not sure the point about all workers being psychonauts is entirely true though. Gisu has an argument with one of the standard workers telling her she can't skate in the area and I think it eventually devolves into the worker accusing Gisu of rubbing in his face about her being psychic and him not. I know the argument occurs early in the game, but I'm not 100% if he said he wasn't pyschic, or if he said he can't specifically do what she does (Levitation).

That being said though, I feel like you'd have to be psychic to properly send packages to their destination in the mail room. some of thoise shoots are way higher than any person is. Course that could just be gameplay design purposes.

[Kuiper]

Originally posted by Sharkinbear:

I'm also going to theorycraft here with you. So we know that there was body swapping involved and the involved parties were in fact psychic. It's how Raz was literally able to be pulled from someone else's mind, yea? So maybe just occupying a psychic's body gave him some psychic abilities.

Nah, we have evidence throughout the game that it's the brain that's psychic, not the body - otherwise Helmut shouldn't have been psychic in Nick's body, the various brains in hamster balls around the Motherlobe wouldn't work, and all the brain stuff from the first game couldn't have worked.

Raz getting pulled from someone's mind was shown to be Smelling Salts - Truman was putting the smelling salts away when we see him, after all.

[CDI Mario]

Originally posted by Sharkinbear:

I'm also going to theorycraft here with you. So we know that there was body swapping involved and the involved parties were in fact psychic. It's how Raz was literally able to be pulled from someone else's mind, yea? So maybe just occupying a psychic's body gave him some psychic abilities.

isnt the mind the psychic part? wasnt that how raz Lifted his mind into the brain tank in the first game. his body didnt do it his brain did

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by Pikmanfan2002:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

All a big stretch, I know. If anything I'm just providing possible evidence that might indicate the extent of Gristol's influence on Loboto.

That all makes sense, but it still begs the question of how Loboto managed to break through the mental construct. The second Loboto seemed like it was supposed to represent someone's attempts at cleaning people out of his mind before they do stuff. It really does seem like Gristol was the sole person making Loboto shut up, considering he's the shadowy figure. Considering it seems like Loboto did eventually crack to Sasha, it really might've just been pure fear of Malugila. Therefore, the second Loboto was literally the part of Loboto so fearful, he would do anything to stop people? But that doesn't sound right...
Also, "put the egg in the basket, and the old egg in the box and the box in the ocean." Put Gristol's brain into Truman, but Truman's brain into the box... but what's the ocean? The ocean was previously referred to as the casino, but did the Psychonauts just come in and save Truman before Loboto could hide the brain?

Well, we know Raz and company get "Truman" from the Rhombus of Ruin, which is in the middle of the ocean. So can someone correct me here? Did Truman lose his brain before or after being saved from the Rhombus of Ruin?

I;m assuming before, as the psilirium would weaken Truman and prevent him from putting up a fight in the brain transfer. But then again, we see Gristol replace Truman's brain while he's sleeping in his bed....That artistic licensing on Gristol's part or fact?

Either way, depending on when the brain was removed, I'd imagine they wanted the brain tossed out into the ocean, brought back to his hotel room at the Casino, or something else and that something prevented them from fully carrying this out, resulting in it being chained (perhaps accidentally) to Truman's body.

edit: Another thought came to me. What was the deal with the Psilirium? It looked like a brain and acted strangely. Maybe related to some of the plot holes present in Psychonauts 2?