Jar of Avarice is missing crucial information

[DeadSpace47]

This hurted me a lot.
l lost a duel by deck-out, my last card was the Jar of Avarice. l set the said card and ended my turn. l waited the first opportunity to activate but the opportunity never presented itself.
From what l gathered from this experience is, you must have at least 1 card in your deck so you can draw 1 at the last step of the part of the card's text.

Though,it really doesn't make sense. l had more than 5 cards in the graveyard, it is logical to put 5 back to my deck and then draw 1. Seems, you can only draw from your old deck and not from the new deck (after putting your 5 cards back to your deck)

[Nightcodex✅]

ok

[Godkyra]

This is not a fault of Jar of Avarice, and you are correct that this is actually a mechanic of the game itself.

The issue in this case is Activation - If a card cannot apply it's effects because there is no valid targets, it simply cannot activate.

Jar of Avarice:
Target 5 cards in your GY, except "Jar of Avarice"; shuffle all 5 into the Deck, then draw 1 card. You can only activate 1 "Jar of Avarice" per turn.

Critically: the "then draw 1 card" part could not resolve when you attempted to activate the card, so therefore couldn't be activated at all.

https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Activate
Example 4 of this link is the problem. Jar of Avarice is working as intended.

[Soda]

Originally posted by Godkyra:

This is not a fault of Jar of Avarice, and you are correct that this is actually a mechanic of the game itself.

The issue in this case is Activation - If a card cannot apply it's effects because there is no valid targets, it simply cannot activate.

Jar of Avarice:
Target 5 cards in your GY, except "Jar of Avarice"; shuffle all 5 into the Deck, then draw 1 card. You can only activate 1 "Jar of Avarice" per turn.

Critically: the "then draw 1 card" part could not resolve when you attempted to activate the card, so therefore couldn't be activated at all.

https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Activate
Example 4 of this link is the problem. Jar of Avarice is working as intended.

It's not so much that there's no valid targets, it's that the card cannot resolve correctly on activation. Since there's no cards to draw when you would attempt to activate Jar of Avarice, you are not legally allowed to activate it.

[Godkyra]

Originally posted by メイドの召喚獣ーレイ:

It's not so much that there's no valid targets, it's that the card cannot resolve correctly on activation. Since there's no cards to draw when you would attempt to activate Jar of Avarice, you are not legally allowed to activate it.

Yes... That's more or less what I just said. My use of the word "Targets" was poor so my bad for that.

[Soda]

Originally posted by Godkyra:

Originally posted by メイドの召喚獣ーレイ:

It's not so much that there's no valid targets, it's that the card cannot resolve correctly on activation. Since there's no cards to draw when you would attempt to activate Jar of Avarice, you are not legally allowed to activate it.

Yes... That's more or less what I just said. My use of the word "Targets" was poor so my bad for that.

Yeah, everything else you said is correct, just doing my best to remove considering of targeting.

Now we proceed to having new targets appear mid-activation

[Obsidian Dragoon]

Originally posted by メイドの召喚獣ーレイ:

Originally posted by Godkyra:

Yes... That's more or less what I just said. My use of the word "Targets" was poor so my bad for that.

Yeah, everything else you said is correct, just doing my best to remove considering of targeting.

Now we proceed to having new targets appear mid-activation

I think Konami should issue a ruling where if you're guaranteed to have a valid target due to paying the cost of an ability, you can activate and resolve that ability normally so long as you make the play that will cause it.

For example, if you have Cyber Dragon Nova on the field with 2 Materials, we'll say Galaxy Soldier and Cyber Dragon Drei, with no "Cyber Dragon" in your GY and want to use its effect to summon a Cyber Dragon, you must detach Cyber Dragon Drei to activate it (because Drei would be a valid target once it hits the GY).

It would also straight up allow Jar/Pot of Avarice to resolve as you're getting 5 cards to draw BEFORE you have a chance to draw with the effect.

[Soda]

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

Originally posted by メイドの召喚獣ーレイ:

Yeah, everything else you said is correct, just doing my best to remove considering of targeting.

Now we proceed to having new targets appear mid-activation

I think Konami should issue a ruling where if you're guaranteed to have a valid target due to paying the cost of an ability, you can activate and resolve that ability normally so long as you make the play that will cause it.

For example, if you have Cyber Dragon Nova on the field with 2 Materials, we'll say Galaxy Soldier and Cyber Dragon Drei, with no "Cyber Dragon" in your GY and want to use its effect to summon a Cyber Dragon, you must detach Cyber Dragon Drei to activate it (because Drei would be a valid target once it hits the GY).

It would also straight up allow Jar/Pot of Avarice to resolve as you're getting 5 cards to draw BEFORE you have a chance to draw with the effect.

I disagree due to the activation requirements of cards. You must be able to resolve the effect in full before you can activate a card. The only reason the cyber dragon nova interaction works is due to the fact you make a new target. You also cannot activate an effect that would do nothing, so you need a Cyber Dragon in you GY in the first place before you can active Nova's effect. Why? Because the game doesn't know what material you are detaching, resulting in the possiblity you could do nothing, resulting in an illegal activation.

[Papa Shekels]

It would cause too many exploitable scenarios if you could activate things that would only have valid activation criteria after performing part of the effects. The point of having restrictive cards is to limit how useful they can be, getting to ignore that is a very powerful (for the player) and dangerous (for rulings) power. Having the right board state is still a restriction; a lot of that would apply to turn 1 plays, such as where cards need a stacked graveyard but you do not have anything in there yet.

As it stands, the rulings are pretty firm. You can only activate cards if all of their criteria is met at the moment of activation. If something happens in response that invalidates that criteria, then depending on the wording and situation of the card, it may end up fizzling out. In this case, the card needs something to draw even if you would technically add more things to draw with its own effect

[Obsidian Dragoon]

Originally posted by メイドの召喚獣ーレイ:

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

I think Konami should issue a ruling where if you're guaranteed to have a valid target due to paying the cost of an ability, you can activate and resolve that ability normally so long as you make the play that will cause it.

For example, if you have Cyber Dragon Nova on the field with 2 Materials, we'll say Galaxy Soldier and Cyber Dragon Drei, with no "Cyber Dragon" in your GY and want to use its effect to summon a Cyber Dragon, you must detach Cyber Dragon Drei to activate it (because Drei would be a valid target once it hits the GY).

It would also straight up allow Jar/Pot of Avarice to resolve as you're getting 5 cards to draw BEFORE you have a chance to draw with the effect.

I disagree due to the activation requirements of cards. You must be able to resolve the effect in full before you can activate a card. The only reason the cyber dragon nova interaction works is due to the fact you make a new target. You also cannot activate an effect that would do nothing, so you need a Cyber Dragon in you GY in the first place before you can active Nova's effect. Why? Because the game doesn't know what material you are detaching, resulting in the possiblity you could do nothing, resulting in an illegal activation.

Right now, the game isn't coded to allow it. TCG follows that same ruling (not allowed) although it could very well be changed later.

"The only reason the cyber dragon nova interaction works is due to the fact you make a new target."

And I think it's reasonable that if you can use the cost to create a situation where the play would resolve normally, it should be allowed.

Jar of Avarice and Pot of Avarice would also both create that same situation, since you shuffle the cards into your deck before drawing.

"the game doesn't know what material you are detaching, resulting in the possiblity you could do nothing, resulting in an illegal activation."

It's also a part of "illegal moves" rulings to knowingly make a move that would result in no change of game state when dealing with infinite loops (*cough* Pole Position). If you know you can make a choice of cost that would result in a legal activation, it should simply require that choice rather than locking you out of the activation entirely.

In terms of coding, it would simply be determining if any of the cards that can be used as the cost would also qualify as targets at resolution.

If we use Monster Reincarnation as another example, trying to use it with an empty graveyard normally wouldn't work. If you were to discard a Monster for the cost though (and it were sent to the GY as a result), it would then have a valid target. It's not a move one should make, but it would still ultimately be a legal activation and resolution.

[DeadSpace47]

Wouldn't help to explicitly say(in the card's text) that the activation can not happen if it is missing the requirements before activation? l mean, similar situations to Jar of Avarice, not in general
Specific example:Jar of Avarice.
You must have a card in your deck before being able to activate Jar of Avarice
While looking at Monster Reincarnation, l can understand the implication of requiring a monster to be in the graveyard already but with Jar of Avarice, it is not that clear, at least for me.
Oh well, at least l learned something new from this.

[Papa Shekels]

Originally posted by DeadSpace47:

Wouldn't help to explicitly say(in the card's text) that the activation can not happen if it is missing the requirements before activation?
Specific example:Jar of Avarice.
You must have a card in your deck before being able to activate Jar of Avarice

I can see where you're coming from with that. I think the reason they wouldn't do it though is because that is unnecessary text according to rulings, and they try to keep card text to a minimum when possible. Compare some really old cards to newer cards and see how many shortcuts they use...piercing battle damage was summed up into one term, the graveyard became the GY, removing from play became banishing, and many older cards had unnecessary requirements/descriptions smoothed out via errata. It would help people understand the card/game better if they added it, but ultimately that is a job they place on judges instead of on each individual card

[DUBINA]

The thing is that you can also return cards to the extra deck beside the main deck, so that's also why you can't do it so that you won't end up with an empty deck anyway.

[MancakeBR]

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

Originally posted by メイドの召喚獣ーレイ:

Yeah, everything else you said is correct, just doing my best to remove considering of targeting.

Now we proceed to having new targets appear mid-activation

I think Konami should issue a ruling where if you're guaranteed to have a valid target due to paying the cost of an ability, you can activate and resolve that ability normally so long as you make the play that will cause it.

For example, if you have Cyber Dragon Nova on the field with 2 Materials, we'll say Galaxy Soldier and Cyber Dragon Drei, with no "Cyber Dragon" in your GY and want to use its effect to summon a Cyber Dragon, you must detach Cyber Dragon Drei to activate it (because Drei would be a valid target once it hits the GY).

It would also straight up allow Jar/Pot of Avarice to resolve as you're getting 5 cards to draw BEFORE you have a chance to draw with the effect.

That would be bad, otherwise Zombie Master would be far superior than it currently is.

[DUBINA]

Originally posted by WM1Pyro:

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

I think Konami should issue a ruling where if you're guaranteed to have a valid target due to paying the cost of an ability, you can activate and resolve that ability normally so long as you make the play that will cause it.

For example, if you have Cyber Dragon Nova on the field with 2 Materials, we'll say Galaxy Soldier and Cyber Dragon Drei, with no "Cyber Dragon" in your GY and want to use its effect to summon a Cyber Dragon, you must detach Cyber Dragon Drei to activate it (because Drei would be a valid target once it hits the GY).

It would also straight up allow Jar/Pot of Avarice to resolve as you're getting 5 cards to draw BEFORE you have a chance to draw with the effect.

That would be bad, otherwise Zombie Master would be far superior than it currently is.

you know the funny thing is that zombie master is the only monster in yugioh history that if gets flipped face down then the effect will not resolve.

[Soda]

Originally posted by DUBINA:

Originally posted by WM1Pyro:

That would be bad, otherwise Zombie Master would be far superior than it currently is.

you know the funny thing is that zombie master is the only monster in yugioh history that if gets flipped face down then the effect will not resolve.

Madolche Messengelato, Ancient Lamp, Dark General Freed, Freed the Matchless General, Marina, Princess of Sunflowers, Red Dragon Archfiend, Sorcerer of Dark Magic, T.G. Hyper Librarian, any monster that relies on its ATK/DEF to resolve.