(upcoming setting) Start Era

[Zapp]

I am curious about the plans for the eventual Start Era advanced setting :)

I understand you will be limited to the eras you have reached through regular play, and that's not a problem - you can speedily play a game on default settings and reach the end of content so all eras are "unlocked" for future games.

No, I'm instead curious how resources are planned to be supplied.

Starting in a later era doesn't make much sense if you start out with no resources (other than money tokens).

If you start out in a diesel era, the player will expect to be able to purchase diesel engines. If you start out in the electric era, the player will expect to be able to lay down electrified track.

To do so, you need a pile of resources such as iron tokens right away.

But since you can't expect to be given unlimited resources, you will need to begin each late-Era game by setting up the same kind of supply trains:

First money trains, then logs and coal, then steel trains and so on. Without that, there's no point in being given access to modern engines. (Unless you settle for cash-only trains like the Bangle or the 60E)

Will maps even be prepopulated with supply trains to help the player get to the desired late-Era action (such as moving steel or cement) without having to repeat these basics every time?

Those coal and steel loops doesn't need to be extensive. Just enough to prevent a new player from accidentally running out of a type of tokens and having trouble setting up the infrastructure needed to gain more of it.

That many players will want to gain more tokens faster by setting up more such loops than the game can be asked to deliver automatically is entirely fair.

If that's deemed too much work, and perhaps too prone to error (a track cutting right through a town for instance), maybe we can respectfully suggest automatic income. For the first ten years, the player is given +1000 coal tokens/month from "off map" sources. After each decade, the game asks the player if he or she's ready to cut off the support.

Or something, so that each late-Era game start doesn't need to start with pausing the game and then spending a lot of time setting up the exact same loops.

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So my questions are:

- how much of each resource are you planning to start off a player with? (Roughly speaking, obviously things can change before release)
- will there be auto-built track to provide tokens continuously?

[jtrucker.jt]

Nope and nope...

Starting in advanced era is players choice and it is not free. You pay for it by not having anything.
Basically there are no plans to supply player with anything more than the green tokens loan regardless of the era you're starting. In EACH ERA there are engines, you can buy for green and which run on green as fuel. SO it is possible to start in advanced era. It is not advisable, but possible. If you find early eras boring, by all means, start later. But don't expect the game to make your start easier. Your choice - your consequences...

Even if you start directly in era 6, you still must set first passenger line, and coal and wood chain before you can do anything else. And that's how it should be. No cheating, no auto-built track
If you want such cheat, open the map at first in the map editor and build such track for free yourself. Then save it and open as new game in whatever era you want.
It is possible and whether you call it trick or cheat, doesn't really matter. But the game won't give you anything without your work.

[Zapp]

Cheating? Not free? Pay for it? You appear to be very judgemental... but why?

I maintain that assuming late era starts to feature "quick start" features to be very reasonable and natural, and in no way suggest that the player is looking to "cheat".

Just jumping in and starting to run electric locos sounds like a fun and cool thing to be able to do. But if you have no electric tokens to fuel them, no steel tokens to purchase them, no iron tokens to build electrified rail.... then what's the point? You can't buy any of the new locos, wagons, station extensions...

I can only hope the developer does not share your strange and uncalled-for outlook on this upcoming game setting... :-(

I am baffled to think there can be anything wrong with generously starting off the player with maybe 10,000 tokens of each commodity so the player gets to enjoy the era's inventions right off the bat.

[Zapp]

Let me also add that the only two Era 7 locomotives that runs on money are the Crocodile and the 60E. None of them run on track you can build for money only.

So the claim "In EACH ERA there are engines, you can buy for green and which run on green as fuel" is technically true, but practically useless.

I guess changing the XML to offer the Bangle in Era 7 is easy, but it doesn't change the basic fact that you don't seem to realize the disappointment of offering a Late Era start where you basically expect the player to first start all his trains with Bangles only to later go to the trouble of replacing them with the engines you actually want to use (when starting a late era game)...

Please reconsider. Just awarding the player a heap of tokens at game start is easy and super useful.

And most definitely not cheating.

You could make this a separate game option ("quick start") if you want to keep the possibility to start in a late era with only a few thousand money.

[jtrucker.jt]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound judgemental, but imagine sentence:

I got in my game something for nothing. (which is what you're asking for).

Where is the game? The challenge? Sorry, but that is like a "god mode" or "unlimited ammo" in shooting game. You can call it anything you want.

There is a way how to get all the tokens of given era by pressing a button. It is there for testing purposes, but it is there and you're free to use it.
I don't, unless I need it to test something. But if I play the game because I want to play. no matter which era I start, I don't use that. Because I consider it cheating in my own game and I prefer to have the challenge. But each to his own.

I won't publish it publicly (some others would, I don't. My choice.) If you want, contact me in PM here or at Mashinky Discord and I tell you.

Anyway. I never heard from the developer that he is considering giving any tokens to start other than the green tokens loan. Of course, I'm not his confidant, so I don't know if he would do it, just never hear about it.

The advantage of starting in higher era is that you see where is stuff on the map and you can build the network accordingly with less rebuilding, because something spawned "in wrong place". It was never meant to skip certain industrial chain because you'd be granted the tokens.

[Zapp]

Well, what can I say?`

You have your opinion and that's fine. I appreciate you telling me.

Let me try to sell you the idea, since you clearly haven't thought about it from this angle before:

When a player starts in the diesel era, the game comes across as friendly if you can start running diesel engines right away. You do not need to first create trains using second-rate engines, and have to look at those until you have enough tokens to upgrade your diesel railway to actually use diesel trains.

When a player starts in the electric era, the game comes across as friendly if you can start building electrified track and running electric engines right away. You do not need to first create trains using second-rate engines, and only after maybe 10 or 20 years get to watch a real electrified network that uses electric engines.

This is nothing like a god mode or unlimited ammo. It's just a quick start making the choice of starting era **more** meaningful.

And (hopefully) it is very easy to implement - since nothing would change except how many tokens you start with. Heck you even seem to have a button that simply adds more tokens!

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You might disagree, but at least now you know that there are probably more players than me that see the "start in Later Era" (inactive) setting that goes "great it would be wonderful to be able to build electric trains right from the start, just by starting in the Electric era" :)

This is a sandbox game. There are no opponents.

Therefore I can only ask you and Jan to maybe reconsider. This is nothing like a "god mode". And I am definitely not asking for "unlimited ammo". I am asking for maybe 10,000 ammo (of each sort) which is actually very little when you think about it. It is meant to be just enough to set up your first loops.

The only point is to offer the player the option of skipping the set-up stage where you're in the diesel or electric era but can't actually use the shiny new toys.

That's not an unreasonable ask to me. Most games would make sure that you actually can use new options right away.

And you could always code it as its own advanced option ("quick start") separate from the Start Era settings if you like.

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Well, there you have it. I can but ask.

Have a nice day

[jtrucker.jt]

OK, it is reasonable opinion, I give you that.

Jan is extremely busy with creating the mp mode for the game. That will take very long, several more months is my guess.
I let him know about this idea and we'll see what he thinks. Although sometimes I might come across as the "main brain" of the game, I am certainly not. He doesn't create the game according to me, so he might go for it after all. Who knows.

[Zapp]

Thank you for listening

[gouldey]

I find this a very reasonable suggestion. Consider it this way;

A railway company launching in 2000 would naturally raise significantly more seed capital than one which had launched in 1920. This would reflect the greater complexities and costs involved in operating a modern network.

I would even suggest that a company launching with insufficient funds or resources (various taken types) to operate effectively from the start would not even be considered viable to launch at all.

Perhaps try to think of it less as cheating and more a way of reflecting the inflated costs and complexities of operating in the modern age.

[Zapp]

Początkowo opublikowane przez gouldey:

I find this a very reasonable suggestion.

Thank you :)

Początkowo opublikowane przez gouldey:

Perhaps try to think of it less as cheating and more a way of reflecting the inflated costs and complexities of operating in the modern age.

Sure, if that is what floats your boat! :)

Myself I simply see it as making the game as friendly, inviting and accessible as possible for the player :-)

Imagine the game speaking to the player:

"So you decided to start in the Diesel Era? Why, here's 10000 diesel tokens so you can actually buy some diesel locos and start running them straight away! Don't forget to still connect oil wells to refineries because those tokens will run out awfully fast and you will need more! Good luck and happy gaming, hope you enjoy the new Start Era setting!"