Slavery

[johnny527]

How dynamic is slavery in the game? Should it be more dynamic with quest prompts like free my people for judaism or farmer stats for helots in greece?

I am going to assume that every major nation used slavery in some form in history, should this be reflected more in the game? I always pick freedom for the money buff, i feel like the flavour of culture would be improved where something like this in.

great job on the game.

[arb]

I feel it is a little under utilised events wise. But its a tricky subject to handle without upsetting anyone. I've added a couple of events in my Eye of Atum mod, that need Slavery law and am working on a couple more. But the base game doesn't really touch the subject via characters as far as I can recall.

[Bishi]

Usually when I play a game I'll try to find out if there is any evidence that the empire I'm playing had any of these policies. I read a fascinating bit about the Hittites that there is evidence they employed a form of servitude rather than chattel slavery.

Anyway, there are some events in the game for it, but it often isn't worth the happiness penalty. So I can't say for sure I've experienced all the events for every empire. I know there is usually an event that pops up where a courtier asks you to stop the practice. If you have slavery enacted sometimes you can get workers as an option in some events. Building the Ziggurat (iirc) and having a child being tutored and then visiting it, will have the option to talk about the slaves that were used in its creation. I can't remember what the character outcome is though for selecting that.

[HB]

Originally posted by Teethling:

Usually when I play a game I'll try to find out if there is any evidence that the empire I'm playing had any of these policies. I read a fascinating bit about the Hittites that there is evidence they employed a form of servitude rather than chattel slavery.

Anyway, there are some events in the game for it, but it often isn't worth the happiness penalty. So I can't say for sure I've experienced all the events for every empire. I know there is usually an event that pops up where a courtier asks you to stop the practice. If you have slavery enacted sometimes you can get workers as an option in some events. Building the Ziggurat (iirc) and having a child being tutored and then visiting it, will have the option to talk about the slaves that were used in its creation. I can't remember what the character outcome is though for selecting that.

https://figshare.utas.edu.au/articles/thesis/Hittite_domestic_and_foreign_policy_in_the_old_kingdom/23231726

[Bishi]

Originally posted by HB:

Originally posted by Teethling:

Usually when I play a game I'll try to find out if there is any evidence that the empire I'm playing had any of these policies. I read a fascinating bit about the Hittites that there is evidence they employed a form of servitude rather than chattel slavery.

Anyway, there are some events in the game for it, but it often isn't worth the happiness penalty. So I can't say for sure I've experienced all the events for every empire. I know there is usually an event that pops up where a courtier asks you to stop the practice. If you have slavery enacted sometimes you can get workers as an option in some events. Building the Ziggurat (iirc) and having a child being tutored and then visiting it, will have the option to talk about the slaves that were used in its creation. I can't remember what the character outcome is though for selecting that.

https://figshare.utas.edu.au/articles/thesis/Hittite_domestic_and_foreign_policy_in_the_old_kingdom/23231726

Rather old, but interesting read about the establishment of the Hittite Empire. Shame it only covers the first half of their rule over Anatolia, but interesting nonetheless. In the future, I would suggest however, you should provide some context as to why you link a random unpublished thesis. But yes, as stated by this very thesis, Hittite slaves appeared to have some semblance of rights (ironic, but progressive given the time [1600~B.C]) and were not necessarily worked to death like their contemporaries in Egypt and China.

So to plainly state my point; a servant is not a free man, but the slightly higher living standards are probably the reason why there aren't many great surviving Hittite monuments despite cultural exchange with both the Egyptians and Assyrians.

[Flounder]

I often find that the Slavery law is not worth it. -1 happiness in every city (and 400 civics) for a possible +10 resource buff? No thanks. The +15 gold for 400 civics also seems like a bad deal.

If not for the law requirement for citadels I wouldn't bother with most of the laws. Am I missing something here?

[mk11]

Originally posted by Flounder:

I often find that the Slavery law is not worth it. -1 happiness in every city (and 400 civics) for a possible +10 resource buff? No thanks. The +15 gold for 400 civics also seems like a bad deal.

If not for the law requirement for citadels I wouldn't bother with most of the laws. Am I missing something here?

Both the resources and gold grow over time. If you have something better to do with the civics go for it but otherwise invest for the long time. The slavery option is generally the better on that the resources are worth more than the gold but it does come with events that can be poor.

[Actionjackson]

Originally posted by Teethling:

Originally posted by HB:

https://figshare.utas.edu.au/articles/thesis/Hittite_domestic_and_foreign_policy_in_the_old_kingdom/23231726

Rather old, but interesting read about the establishment of the Hittite Empire. Shame it only covers the first half of their rule over Anatolia, but interesting nonetheless. In the future, I would suggest however, you should provide some context as to why you link a random unpublished thesis. But yes, as stated by this very thesis, Hittite slaves appeared to have some semblance of rights (ironic, but progressive given the time [1600~B.C]) and were not necessarily worked to death like their contemporaries in Egypt and China.

So to plainly state my point; a servant is not a free man, but the slightly higher living standards are probably the reason why there aren't many great surviving Hittite monuments despite cultural exchange with both the Egyptians and Assyrians.

Slaves could have a good life depending on where they end up. If you end up in an roman estate and had at least a semi important task, you been treated rather well. And one day you probably go free.

Making enemies in your own home is not something you want to do. Corner your slaves and you probably get killed one day, poison, dagger, whatever.

In modern time we came to think that all salves where always treated like sub humans, something not remotely true.
In ancient times you could have a lot better live as slave in a good houshold than as a free man fighting for survival out in the streets or countryside.

[Bishi]

Originally posted by Actionjackson:

Originally posted by Teethling:

Rather old, but interesting read about the establishment of the Hittite Empire. Shame it only covers the first half of their rule over Anatolia, but interesting nonetheless. In the future, I would suggest however, you should provide some context as to why you link a random unpublished thesis. But yes, as stated by this very thesis, Hittite slaves appeared to have some semblance of rights (ironic, but progressive given the time [1600~B.C]) and were not necessarily worked to death like their contemporaries in Egypt and China.

So to plainly state my point; a servant is not a free man, but the slightly higher living standards are probably the reason why there aren't many great surviving Hittite monuments despite cultural exchange with both the Egyptians and Assyrians.

Slaves could have a good life depending on where they end up. If you end up in an roman estate and had at least a semi important task, you been treated rather well. And one day you probably go free.

Making enemies in your own home is not something you want to do. Corner your slaves and you probably get killed one day, poison, dagger, whatever.

In modern time we came to think that all salves where always treated like sub humans, something not remotely true.
In ancient times you could have a lot better live as slave in a good houshold than as a free man fighting for survival out in the streets or countryside.

Y'all do realize Rome wasn't really a thing until the 8th century BCE, right? The republic on the tail end of the 6th and the empire as we mostly know it on the cusp of the common era. Hatti was way before this in the bronze age. I'm not saying Roman slaves had it bad, but we are talking about civilizations even older than the Romans.

Edit: To put this into perspective; we are closer in time to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire than the pre-split Roman Empire was to the founding of the Hittites. Crazy huh?

[Dale Kent]

Originally posted by Teethling:

Originally posted by Actionjackson:

Slaves could have a good life depending on where they end up. If you end up in an roman estate and had at least a semi important task, you been treated rather well. And one day you probably go free.

Making enemies in your own home is not something you want to do. Corner your slaves and you probably get killed one day, poison, dagger, whatever.

In modern time we came to think that all salves where always treated like sub humans, something not remotely true.
In ancient times you could have a lot better live as slave in a good houshold than as a free man fighting for survival out in the streets or countryside.

Y'all do realize Rome wasn't really a thing until the 8th century BCE, right? The republic on the tail end of the 6th and the empire as we mostly know it on the cusp of the common era. Hatti was way before this in the bronze age. I'm not saying Roman slaves had it bad, but we are talking about civilizations even older than the Romans.

Edit: To put this into perspective; we are closer in time to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire than the pre-split Roman Empire was to the founding of the Hittites. Crazy huh?

Cleopatra is closer in number of years to us, than she is to the building of the Great Pyramid.

[Bishi]

Originally posted by Dale Kent:

Originally posted by Teethling:

Y'all do realize Rome wasn't really a thing until the 8th century BCE, right? The republic on the tail end of the 6th and the empire as we mostly know it on the cusp of the common era. Hatti was way before this in the bronze age. I'm not saying Roman slaves had it bad, but we are talking about civilizations even older than the Romans.

Edit: To put this into perspective; we are closer in time to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire than the pre-split Roman Empire was to the founding of the Hittites. Crazy huh?

Cleopatra is closer in number of years to us, than she is to the building of the Great Pyramid.

4000 years of recorded history and most people not asking about the back half... Hits me in my feels man.

[Dale Kent]

Originally posted by Teethling:

Originally posted by Dale Kent:

Cleopatra is closer in number of years to us, than she is to the building of the Great Pyramid.

4000 years of recorded history and most people not asking about the back half... Hits me in my feels man.

Yeah, during the Egyptian New Kingdom (1500-1000 BC), many Egyptian archaeologists were discovering and exploring the history of Mesopotamia and Egypt.

Let that sink in for a minute. Over 3000 thousand years ago, people already considered the founding of the Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilisations (between 4000-3500 BC), as "ancient history".

Edit to add: the earliest known writings are from around 3100 BC, so recorded history starts 5000 years ago, not 4000. :)

[Bishi]

The more you know, thanks! I had not known cuneiform went back even further than I thought. Cuneiform are records carved into clay if anyone was curious by the way. Crazy that in 1600 BC they were still using it. I need to learn more about the Sumerians and apparently even more about the ancient Egyptians. Maybe once my current fascination with Hatti is over!

While I have you here Dale; I know people have been asking for more nations in possible future DLC. If such considerations are being weighed, how far are you guys willing to go back to fit Old World? Would Sumer be a possibility?

[Dale Kent]

Originally posted by Teethling:

The more you know, thanks! I had not known cuneiform went back even further than I thought. Cuneiform are records carved into clay if anyone was curious by the way. Crazy that in 1600 BC they were still using it. I need to learn more about the Sumerians and apparently even more about the ancient Egyptians. Maybe once my current fascination with Hatti is over! :reexcited:

While I have you here Dale; I know people have been asking for more nations in possible future DLC. If such considerations are being weighed, how far are you guys willing to go back to fit Old World? Would Sumer be a possibility?

Whilst the game sort of dictates a timeframe during mid-late bronze/iron ages, I'm going to say, "Never say never". With the recent Wonders & Dynasties the timeline was pushed back from around 1600BC (Hatusilli) to almost 3000BC (Merneith). The new boundary would definitely include the Sumerian early dynastic period which includes Gilgamesh's reign in Uruk. The team's own NoLegsKitten is quite the Mesopotamian fan, so you just never know. You'll have to hassle him on our discord. :)

[Bishi]

Right on. Appreciate you being open with such a question.

[nolegskitten]

I have been summoned