Gender roles expanded

[Hendricus]

Giving roles for boys and girls that are more historic, Now we see them having almost the same roles. Only the girls can get kids tough, but generals and governers can be girls in big numbers. What I would like is extra roles and an overhaul of what those 4 main skills do for boys and girls. So each has it's own preference of taking a role, but with the odd exception. The result I would like is that boys want to become general, governor or ambassador and girls want to become artist,dancer or spymaster. The most of the time, but the odd female general would be nice too. See it as a wish I have. Anyone that would like this too ?

[Siontific]

Generally I think there are more female generals and governors than fans of the historical genre of games tend to realize.

Off of the top of my head, I can name almost as many women of history who led armies or factions in times of war as I can name men. That doesn't mean that it was a 50/50 split, but in terms of legacy, there really are a large amount of women who led.

Sure if you compiled an actual list, men would outweigh women. But these games evoke the imagination of history and I think names like Bouddica, Artemesia, Thomyris, and Zenobia evoke - for me - as much of the wonder and glory of history as do names like Ptolemy or Darius.

It's easy to look back on the history of the world and see only the Hammurabis - when it was also filled with Shammuramats.

They weren't some far-flung exception, either. Early Arab kingdoms, for example, often list more queens as leaders of men than they do kings.

[Hendricus]

Originally posted by Feigro:

Generally I think there are more female generals and governors than fans of the historical genre of games tend to realize.

Off of the top of my head, I can name almost as many women of history who led armies or factions in times of war as I can name men. That doesn't mean that it was a 50/50 split, but in terms of legacy, there really are a large amount of women who led.

Sure if you compiled an actual list, men would outweigh women. But these games evoke the imagination of history and I think names like Bouddica, Artemesia, Thomyris, and Zenobia evoke - for me - as much of the wonder and glory of history as do names like Ptolemy or Darius.

It's easy to look back on the history of the world and see only the Hammurabis - when it was also filled with Shammuramats.

They weren't some far-flung exception, either. Early Arab kingdoms, for example, often list more queens as leaders of men than they do kings.

I see your point, so some skills have 70/30 for boys and others have 70/30 for girls. Or numbers that are more historic. If you do that for each skill you have roles that are done by one of the genders more often but still with a large amount of exceptions.

[Salty Biscuit]

Originally posted by Feigro:

Generally I think there are more female generals and governors than fans of the historical genre of games tend to realize.

Off of the top of my head, I can name almost as many women of history who led armies or factions in times of war as I can name men. That doesn't mean that it was a 50/50 split, but in terms of legacy, there really are a large amount of women who led.

Sure if you compiled an actual list, men would outweigh women. But these games evoke the imagination of history and I think names like Bouddica, Artemesia, Thomyris, and Zenobia evoke - for me - as much of the wonder and glory of history as do names like Ptolemy or Darius.

It's easy to look back on the history of the world and see only the Hammurabis - when it was also filled with Shammuramats.

They weren't some far-flung exception, either. Early Arab kingdoms, for example, often list more queens as leaders of men than they do kings.

+1 to this.

[Groo the one]

Guess you should reach out for Dale Kent, this case. Developer and modder of this mod:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2905398138&searchtext=gender

To contact him, you could make use of Old Worlds Discord server. The link is to be found on Old Worlds Steam store page.

[Dale Kent]

Yeah not like he reads steam forums. ;)

I wrote that mod to address a specific case (ie: shut off roles to specific genders). I never intended to look at ratioed roles. That's just making the whole thing a lot more complex than I really wanted to go.

[Hendricus]

Originally posted by Dale Kent:

Yeah not like he reads steam forums. ;)

I wrote that mod to address a specific case (ie: shut off roles to specific genders). I never intended to look at ratioed roles. That's just making the whole thing a lot more complex than I really wanted to go.

I use your mod, and knowing what roles the genders can have I keep that in mind when they are promoted. Modern times make this topic a balancing act tough.

[chalcohills1]

"Off of the top of my head, I can name almost as many women of history who led armies or factions in times of war as I can name men. That doesn't mean that it was a 50/50 split, but in terms of legacy, there really are a large amount of women who led." -- it wasn't 50-50, it wasn't 90-10, it wasn't even 99-1, it was something like 99.99 to .01, and that's being generous to the women. Current culture, pop culture and in "education" (which no longer educates) is grotesquely ridiculously dishonest about gender. If you want to have it be fantastical in a game, have at it, though it's easier to take in super hero or fantasy/magic games than in games that pretend to being historical otherwise. I can tolerate the baloney when it stays in the realm of play and pretend. The lying to young men and women about what men and women are ... makes me see red, as it should any decent person. Just stop and leave it as a game. Have options/mods whatever to let people make it realistic or not. Make historical armies be led by purple ostriches for all I care.

[Hendricus]

Originally posted by chalcohills1:

"Off of the top of my head, I can name almost as many women of history who led armies or factions in times of war as I can name men. That doesn't mean that it was a 50/50 split, but in terms of legacy, there really are a large amount of women who led." -- it wasn't 50-50, it wasn't 90-10, it wasn't even 99-1, it was something like 99.99 to .01, and that's being generous to the women. Current culture, pop culture and in "education" (which no longer educates) is grotesquely ridiculously dishonest about gender. If you want to have it be fantastical in a game, have at it, though it's easier to take in super hero or fantasy/magic games than in games that pretend to being historical otherwise. I can tolerate the baloney when it stays in the realm of play and pretend. The lying to young men and women about what men and women are ... makes me see red, as it should any decent person. Just stop and leave it as a game. Have options/mods whatever to let people make it realistic or not. Make historical armies be led by purple ostriches for all I care.

Yep modern times make it harder to talk about this topic open and honest.

[HB]

Originally posted by Feigro:

Generally I think there are more female generals and governors than fans of the historical genre of games tend to realize.

Luckily we have historical records, and places of education, and they do not support those claims.

Originally posted by Feigro:

Off of the top of my head, I can name almost as many women of history who led armies or factions in times of war as I can name men. That doesn't mean that it was a 50/50 split, but in terms of legacy, there really are a large amount of women who led.

Cool, so women who led armies is one thing being a ruler is another and they existed in large numbers. And you know as many females as males, thats either quite some feat.....or a complete lack of historical knowledge.

Originally posted by Feigro:

Sure if you compiled an actual list, men would outweigh women.

Like in the UK army, it took til 2024 to appoint a female General of the Army, so another thin list.

Indeed, massively so because women in general were not military leaders as laws and custom prevented them from holding military command, only way a women can lead a nation in war is if she has no husband, so your list is going to be very thin.

Originally posted by Feigro:

But these games evoke the imagination of history and I think names like Boadicea, Artemis, Thomyris, and Zenobia evoke - for me - as much of the wonder and glory of history as do names like Ptolemy or Darius.

Boadicea was a Queen without a husband, who lead a faction ( no one objects to Queens leading faction, but women being generals in quantity ) not used in the game, so of all the celtic wars, thats 1 for a women who led that celtic nation. Is that your whole list or are there others?. One from 000s of battles that celts fought in antiquity is a thin list.

Artemis in the Persian Empire and was a general, any more examples or is that it?, againa thin list considering Persian number of battles and wars.
Thomyris/Zenobia was Queen of a nation not in game, any other examples for the sythians/Palmyarians.?.

Where is your list of Roman/Carthage/ Greek etc female Generals?. Note your list of female military leaders, is also list of those who failed at war, only one not being crushed.

Originally posted by Feigro:

It's easy to look back on the history of the world and see only the Hammurabis - when it was also filled with Shammuramats.

Hammarubis was a male ruler, one around a 00, who lead the nation and led the army, Shammuramats was the only female Regent who accompanied the boy on campaign, so 1% is your list for Assyria as Queen of faction leading in war.

Originally posted by Feigro:

They weren't some far-flung exception, either. Early Arab kingdoms, for example, often list more queens as leaders of men than they do kings.

Nor are they examples that so far support your claims so actually yes they were far flung exceptions.

Ones pre islam then?, and also not used ion game, as islam prohibits female prophets, Caliphs, and has hadith ‘Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler’ when one was told the Persians had a femal ruler.https://qurananswers.me/2018/02/20/islamic-stance-on-women-as-heads-of-states/

I suspect you were thinking of https://www.eisenbrauns.org/books/titles/978-951-51-8582-2.html and the 5 Women rulers ( unlike Assyrian women how had not military authority or could be Queen in their own right these the scribes use the same tern for them as Assyrian Kings) that the Assyrians defeated, kept on as client rulers paying tribute to assyria rather than being killed, for around 200 years, so rather a small time frame and makes them provincial Assyrian governers.

[mk11]

Originally posted by HB:

Originally posted by Feigro:

Generally I think there are more female generals and governors than fans of the historical genre of games tend to realize.

Luckily we have historical records, and places of education, and they do not support those claims.

Do we have historical records of the number that "fans of the historical genre of games tend to realize"? Didn't say that there were more than a tiny number, just that it was a bigger tiny number than fans expect. Also craftily included governors as well as generals. Female generals that were not also rulers were as rare as hen's teeth.