Performance

[zolobolo]

Looking at the resource utilization while the player is in the start menu it seems to me that the its not related to the strategic map or the objects on it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/evxj4lin8juplw1/Start%20Menu.GIF?dl=0

So a large chunk of the resource usage in game is already applied when the game starts up (tied to a base function of the engine maybe)

If so the size of the map and number of factions/objects on it might be secondary to the performance issues

[MezzerliptikJay]

Interesting, I hope they can fix the issues, its such a great game just a shame these performance issues ruin the experience

[zolobolo]

Here is the resource usage for CyberPunk from the same machine:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lwl5ln7xq51gvne/CyberPunk.GIF?dl=0

To be fair - CyberPunk also did not display a significantly higher resource usage when in game compared to the main menu

CP has much higher CPU/GPU RAM usage, slightly higher RAM usage - all of these are expected but the GPU processing usage seems to have a stark difference

Both are running in 4K and high graphics settings

In case of Old World I can only imagine there is an issue with the driver or the engine itself that it spins around so much on the GPU even without the actual strategic map being processed
Maybe there is one of the graphics options that triggers the issue - one which deactivated would stop the constant GPU processing

[HB]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

Looking at the resource utilization while the player is in the start menu it seems to me that the its not related to the strategic map or the objects on it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/evxj4lin8juplw1/Start%20Menu.GIF?dl=0

So a large chunk of the resource usage in game is already applied when the game starts up (tied to a base function of the engine maybe)

If so the size of the map and number of factions/objects on it might be secondary to the performance issues

Is that not a 2 year old driver?, whats it like with the latest?.

[Dorok]

With my computer, a game like GloomHaven performs awfully badly and quite worse than Old World. So my computer is more borderline for the game, not a surprise with a 8+ year old computer.

But also I see performances variations much better, and clearly perf goes up and down during a play, nothing related to turn 120 or something.

The global map reveal is definitely a factor but a temporary factor. That's very weird in my opinion or it's a matter of stuff initialization.

But it's not feeling like that because there can be significant slowdown still temporary without any more of the map revealed. It's almost like if AI code is running during player turn and sometimes this is enough to slow down the game during player turn.

It's important to quote that I use the lowest setup, and even the default lowest forgot some lower options I add. It's not rare that animations or graphic options can seriously affect perf.

And then it's on Mac, but is the game has Windows perf bug that aren't also on Mac? I doubt it.

EDIT:
And to compare, Civ5&6n and even Baldur's Gate 3 EA have no problems, but that's totally different budgets, and in three cases they probably got a dedicated Apple support, so I'm not surprise a game like Old World or Humankind seems far behind those 3 blockbusters.

[zolobolo]

Here are the stats with the latest driver (this typically does not change them except if there is a grave bug in the driver):
High Settings:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8eewpnnrfqv0spj/High%20Settings.GIF?dl=0

Low Settings:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ovylv4lcqabzbfv/Low%20Settings.GIF?dl=0

Low Settings + Low Res:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9qfb71729h87w7/Low%20Settings%20non4k.GIF?dl=0

CPU usage decreases with lower settings but the only stark difference I see in GPU processing is from 4K to low res: here the GPU processing load is still the same in general but there are notable periods when this high level of processing takes place

My conclusion:
1. The issue already exists on the main menu (not related to size of map or objects to process on the map)
2. The issue is not related to graphics settings
3. The issue occurs less frequently on lower resolution

Spitball theory: The app utilizes only a portion of the GPU threads - hence the max 40% load independently from settings and the lag
What is it processing? That is a mystery. Typically there should be no processing at all CPU or otherwise if the game settles on a static menu without dynamic background. It is effected by screen resolution but then again what is not? :)

[zolobolo]

Originally posted by HB:

Is that not a 2 year old driver?, whats it like with the latest?.

What do you see on your computer?
Is there no GPU processing in the main menu that is comparable to what I posted?

[The Renderer]

You should also take a closer look at what happens in the game, especially at later stages. Just because usage is high in the menu or in the beginning doesn't mean it won't get much worse later on (which it will), meaning the real issue might still/additionally be elsewhere.
Still, good findings, now the devs only need to listen for once.

[zolobolo]

IMO we first need to confirm that the above phenomenon is reproducible with different OS, CPU, GPU (AMD not NVIDIA)

If so, then I would suggest this is classified as an issue as AFAIK there should be no processing if there is no change (game has loaded no activity taking place within the memory at this point)

When comparing resource utilization from the main menu and a 100 turn game on Old World map there is no huge difference - I would suspect that whatever is causing this constant processing is the root cause for the lag and other perf related issues we see later within the game itself

[Dorok]

Originally posted by The Renderer:

You should also take a closer look at what happens in the game, especially at later stages. Just because usage is high in the menu or in the beginning doesn't mean it won't get much worse later on (which it will), meaning the real issue might still/additionally be elsewhere.
Still, good findings, now the devs only need to listen for once.

I agree, zolobolo test is quite wrong and proves nothing.

As I already quoted, the game is going up or down for no clear reasons and it's certainly not scaled on number of turns or amount of global map revealed.

So for zolobolo, it's not even later game, it's when the problem appear and some time after.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

When comparing resource utilization from the main menu and a 100 turn game on Old World map there is no huge difference - I would suspect that whatever is causing this constant processing is the root cause for the lag and other perf related issues we see later within the game itself

Well, perhaps.

On a weak computer you have a constant survey along a play, and GPU related stuff seems not involved in perfs significant variations.

The first point for me would be to confirm there isn't sort of AI code running during player turn. Like a unit moving closer to something trigger code totally useless for player turn, but eventually for AIs turn.

In fact, game behavior on bizarre slow down and it's solved after some time or something, remind me Humankind for which this is totally natural as AIs play during player turn, so when a player unit moves somewhere the AI or multiple AI could start compute some tactics and sometimes it starts degenerate.

[zolobolo]

There are certainly additional processing going on during player and AI turn. If for no other reason, then each time a unit or building is selected there are contextual icons and ranges drawn up

My line of though is this:
If the engine already produces constant high GPU processing load even if the actual map, player or enemy turn is not yet needed, then this base load will be an issue when actual work will need to be done such as loading a game, reacting to a button, or processing unit ranges, AI scripts etc...

So I think starting with this base load might be prudent

[zolobolo]

As a counter point to my own argument, looking at Humankind the GPU utilization is considerably higher in every situation:

Menu:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l48710fqc949rk1/HK%20Menu.GIF?dl=0

Strategic map:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0jsdlytab1qr3w/HK%20Game.GIF?dl=0

What is interesting here is the reaction time of buttons and other UI elements does not hint to any sort of lag in HK

So the base GPU processing load in the main menu is not necessarily an issue
Could be prioritization in that some buttons/functions need to get priority when they need processing slot, or maybe the usage of GPU threads is not optimal dont know

All I can say is that the lag that seems to bain the game from around 100 turns on OW map already seems to be present on the main menu and thus I dont believe it is directly tied to the amount of things going on on the map - it is made worse by them but they are not the root cause

[Dorok]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

As a counter point to my own argument, looking at Humankind the GPU utilization is considerably higher in every situation:

Menu:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l48710fqc949rk1/HK%20Menu.GIF?dl=0

Strategic map:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0jsdlytab1qr3w/HK%20Game.GIF?dl=0

What is interesting here is the reaction time of buttons and other UI elements does not hint to any sort of lag in HK

So the base GPU processing load in the main menu is not necessarily an issue
Could be prioritization in that some buttons/functions need to get priority when they need processing slot, or maybe the usage of GPU threads is not optimal dont know

All I can say is that the lag that seems to bain the game from around 100 turns on OW map already seems to be present on the main menu and thus I dont believe it is directly tied to the amount of things going on on the map - it is made worse by them but they are not the root cause

Interesting but I would not get Humankind as a reference, I checked once and it was using like 1400 threads. It has a complex system clearly leading to dead lock cases and block eventually for some solved after a timeout. It has complex relationships between recorded actions to do and interaction with UI and the global graphic system, at least it allows often solve block case with save and reload then the actions recorded not done are just applied without any link with the graphic system. But since last versions it has also cases where the actions are recorded but the UI doesn't reflect it and isn't block either, then it starts seem have incoherence but then save and load reset to a clean state.

HK has obviously an ultra complex system I wouldn't suggest clone, either the main designer or dev or both of this system left, either the system became so complex that the team seem lost a lot of time and efforts to try clean various problems and it'(s not just around dead lock and block.

One point of OW worry me, it's when I save and get a lot later the save done panel, very weird. For the quote HK manages very well the save system, and its UI design is exemplary, I never seen it before and it's still great and intuitive. But, unlike very few games, it hasn't solved the problem of number of saves, but ok almost no game did it.

[The Renderer]

I don't think he wants to suggest using the HK system (and it wouldn't be possible anyways), just that OW has a problem which should be acknowledged and fixed.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by The Renderer:

I don't think he wants to suggest using the HK system (and it wouldn't be possible anyways), just that OW has a problem which should be acknowledged and fixed.

Sure, but what I'm meaning is it's not a system to compare with because it seems not be a good reference of implementation/design. It could do miracles on UI responsiveness (not with my computer) but it's at a huge price not worthing it.... apparently and not yet eventually. :-)