Findings First Play

[zolobolo]

I like 4x and love ancient era (dont enjoy when games leave that era) so I like the focus here
Pros:
+ Focus on characters works well they are integrated in the mechanics of the game properly
+ The graphics dont look impressive on screenshots but in motion the models are decent and the game properly scales everything to 4K if needed, no small texts or stretched textures that I could see
+ Tribal neutrals concept is promising
+ The idea to tie the start of the in game music to research :)
+ Background music is pretty good and authentic
+ There is no direct penalty per city count morale or other wise (rubber banding for building wide)
+ Old World map is the classical TW EU map that is pretty huge and you can start from the historical location of Rome :)

Cons:
- Tribes are passive: they dont seem to send armies to help their camps being attacked, didnt see an invasion from them even after dozens of turns of warring and taking their settlements
- Barbarians dont seem to make sense when there is a more promising system: Tribes already available (if they would be aggressive). Replacement of barbarians with Tribes seem prudent as the latter should be more challenging (in theory) and can be interacted with while barbarians are a callback to CIV but dont seem to have a useful function here
- Character portrait repetition (noticed 3 perfectly identical portraits with Rome up till turn 100)
- Performance issues: reactions to buttons (Resume, Save Game, End Turn) has a noticeable pause before anything seemingly happens - maybe it is already processing in the background and only the UI is slow to react but it increases with the overall turn count so is likely driven b objects on the map in some way
- Bireme needs a remodeling as it didnt seem to work out (though other models are OK)
- Minimap zoom I couldnt find yet so it could not be used once a good portion of the map has been revealed

Overall I like the concept (narrow scope to one era), the particular era, and the graphics (with the exception of the Bireme) but I feel the game needs a little more time in the oven to fill in the character model roster (or optimise the random generator to not reselect past models from the same game) and both tribes and performance needs work so that there is an early game challenge and the late game doesnt fall victim of perf issues

[HB]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

Cons:
- Tribes are passive: they dont seem to send armies to help their camps being attacked, didnt see an invasion from them even after dozens of turns of warring and taking their settlements
- Barbarians dont seem to make sense when there is a more promising system: Tribes already available (if they would be aggressive). Replacement of barbarians with Tribes seem prudent as the latter should be more challenging (in theory) and can be interacted with while barbarians are a callback to CIV but dont seem to have a useful function here
game) and both tribes and performance needs work so that there is an early game challenge and the late game doesnt fall victim of perf issues

C:\Program Files\Epic Games\OldWorld\Reference\XML\Infos

This file, TribeLevel is where/how the tribe will function, if i want, and i do i do!, to get a certain different type of behaviour from tribes i pick a level in base game, example of raging level in game.
<Entry>
<zType>TRIBELEVEL_RAGING</zType>
<Name>TEXT_TRIBELEVEL_RAGING</Name>
<iEmptySites>1</iEmptySites>
<iBarbSites>2</iBarbSites>
<iDefendUnits>4</iDefendUnits>
<iMaxUnitsRange>3</iMaxUnitsRange>
<iTurnCityProb>10</iTurnCityProb>
<iUnitUpgrade>15</iUnitUpgrade>
<iTribeConvertTurn>30</iTribeConvertTurn>
<iTribeConvertProb>6</iTribeConvertProb>
<iRaidStartTurn>20</iRaidStartTurn>
<iRaidProbTile>10</iRaidProbTile>
<iRaidProbUnit>40</iRaidProbUnit>
<iRaidRange>20</iRaidRange>
<iFatigue>1</iFatigue>
<iActiveHeal>3</iActiveHeal>
<iWarOfferTurn>25</iWarOfferTurn>
<iWarModifier>20</iWarModifier>
<iAIModifier>20</iAIModifier>
</Entry>
</Root>

So make a mod for your own use and change how the Tribe ( also works for Barbs) will behave in game according to how you want it to behave, so for example:

<Entry>
<zType>TRIBELEVEL_RAGING</zType>
<Name>TEXT_TRIBELEVEL_RAGING</Name>
<iEmptySites>1</iEmptySites>
<iBarbSites>2</iBarbSites>
<iDefendUnits>8</iDefendUnits>
<iMaxUnitsRange>3</iMaxUnitsRange>
<iTurnCityProb>6</iTurnCityProb>
<iUnitUpgrade>15</iUnitUpgrade>
<iTribeConvertTurn>30</iTribeConvertTurn>
<iTribeConvertProb>6</iTribeConvertProb>
<iRaidStartTurn>40</iRaidStartTurn>
<iRaidProbTile>6</iRaidProbTile>
<iRaidProbUnit>80</iRaidProbUnit>
<iRaidRange>40</iRaidRange>
<iFatigue>1</iFatigue>
<iActiveHeal>6</iActiveHeal>
<iWarOfferTurn>25</iWarOfferTurn>
<iWarModifier>20</iWarModifier>
<iAIModifier>20</iAIModifier>
</Entry>

[zolobolo]

Looking around in the game setup advanced features I found two excellent options that cover above points:
1. Replace all Barbarians with Tribes
2. Increase Tribe agressivenes

This is excellent as I am not one to mod the game and these options are very valuable

Starting a new Old World map Thracians are now occupying the South of Italy and Numidians are located on Corsica

There could be much better fits for these tribes but I take what I get happy these options exist, hope they will pack a punch as well now with their level set higher at the start :)

[HB]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

Looking around in the game setup advanced features I found two excellent options that cover above points:
1. Replace all Barbarians with Tribes
2. Increase Tribe agressivenes

This is excellent as I am not one to mod the game and these options are very valuable

Starting a new Old World map Thracians are now occupying the South of Italy and Numidians are located on Corsica

There could be much better fits for these tribes but I take what I get happy these options exist, hope they will pack a punch as well now with their level set higher at the start :)

1. I believe that just removes barbs from the game and does not replace them with anything. ie your removing barbs, so one less AI faction AI for the computer to consider, and many city sites are now empty and wont be producing units that increase unit count in game and all that this entails.

2. Yes that looks like what your after, you might also consider the number/size range option of Tribes in game to further get what your after.

If your using OW map, then for immersion value you can edit tribes names in Tribes-Text so as to conform to your preferences, so for example Vandals/Danes become Greek/iberian tribe, Gauls become celtic and can be used to cover a larger area, and you just use the editor to place these Greeks/iberian where you want them on the OW city sites you want them.

[zolobolo]

Originally posted by HB:

Originally posted by zolobolo:

Looking around in the game setup advanced features I found two excellent options that cover above points:
1. Replace all Barbarians with Tribes
2. Increase Tribe agressivenes

This is excellent as I am not one to mod the game and these options are very valuable

Starting a new Old World map Thracians are now occupying the South of Italy and Numidians are located on Corsica

There could be much better fits for these tribes but I take what I get happy these options exist, hope they will pack a punch as well now with their level set higher at the start :)

1. I believe that just removes barbs from the game and does not replace them with anything. ie your removing barbs, so one less AI faction AI for the computer to consider, and many city sites are now empty and wont be producing units that increase unit count in game and all that this entails.

2. Yes that looks like what your after, you might also consider the number/size range option of Tribes in game to further get what your after.

I am only playing Old World map: here if I select the option "Tribes Only" then barbs are in fact replaced by actual tribes on the South of Italy and the islands all around :)

The naming does not exactly fit the region but the most important aspect is there: can interact with them. Yes its cool they can be renamed but I will not do so - hope the map will get some more love officially

The new tribes instead of barbs did produce units and one unit has been sent from a neighbouring settlement as protection so its seems to work (on higher strength setting at least)

Looked again but didnt see this option: " number/size range option of Tribes " is it available under a different name under advanced setup?

[HB]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

I am only playing Old World map: here if I select the option "Tribes Only" then barbs are in fact replaced by actual tribes on the South of Italy and the islands all around :)

Ok, what i believe that means is that the number of Tribes stays the same as you selected in the Tribes ( select 3 4 or 5 tribes ) on set up in a random map, and the OW map has the number of Tribes pre set. Depending on AI development they are city sites tagged as national start location to fill up the AI development advantage of the number of extra cities, if not used they revert back to barb control, so in your choices they get removed again and replaced with existing Tribes.

Originally posted by zolobolo:

The naming does not exactly fit the region but the most important aspect is there: can interact with them. Yes its cool they can be renamed but I will not do so - hope the map will get some more love officially

There are starting tribes with names, these can be edited, just as more Tribes can be added and placed where you want on the OW map. This is all just immersion of course, but imo worth the effort. Example i want to be Rome/Macedon and i want Persia to get big as an Ai, and be the power in the East so do away with Babylon and Assyria Ais, freeing up 2 slots, split Sythian Tribe into Medes and Parthi Tribes for the East to keep Persian honest to either absorb or ally with, i use one slot to have a Spartan Ai and another for Germanics as i also want the OW map to go to the Rhine. and have Celtic and Germanic Tribes and so on, this is simple text edits to existing text files and adds a lot of imersion.

Originally posted by zolobolo:

The new tribes instead of barbs did produce units and one unit has been sent from a neighbouring settlement as protection so its seems to work (on higher strength setting at least)

What i mean is, the same existing Tribe has access to more city starts, those that the AI expects to gain with buffs to development and those other Brabs you selected not to have in game and is now stronger for it as all members of the Tribe act the same diplomatically and will produce raiders, of course its a slower to be a problem than having Barbs, but it can easily become a bigger problem as a tribe can be vast this way

Originally posted by zolobolo:

Looked again but didnt see this option: " number/size range option of Tribes " is it available under a different name under advanced setup?

Tribes is the option two below map size, and you select 3 4 or 5 tribes, OW map has its own pre set number of Tribes and Barbs, and removing Barbs frees up city sites for those tribes to fill up.

If you open up OW map and search it, you will see there are around 25 barb city sites, so removing them means the existing tribes have them now.

[curtadamsCA]

You should post this as a review.

[zolobolo]

Originally posted by curtadamsCA:

You should post this as a review.

done

[zolobolo]

Early game is much more interesting with tribes and I finally saw raids conducted against myself and an AI major faction but likely need to test tribes on highest strength to see if it poses an early game combat challenge

I have been keeping an eye on performance issues from early game on during my second play and they crop up quite early in the game - constant GPU processing and high GPU RAM usage. Seem this behavior in a game where the map surface area was constantly recalculating attributes related to the terrain even when not needed: could be unit range, hex yield or similar

[HB]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

Early game is much more interesting with tribes and I finally saw raids conducted against myself and an AI major faction but likely need to test tribes on highest strength to see if it poses an early game combat challenge

Tribe and Barb raids both use the same mechanics so your not seeing anything different.

[zolobolo]

Originally posted by HB:

Originally posted by zolobolo:

Early game is much more interesting with tribes and I finally saw raids conducted against myself and an AI major faction but likely need to test tribes on highest strength to see if it poses an early game combat challenge

Tribe and Barb raids both use the same mechanics so your not seeing anything different.

Its two different options:
1. The game is much more interesting with tribes as I can interact with them and they increase immersion (Tribes only option)
2. Finally saw raids against major factions (increased tribes strength)

Maybe the tribe strength option would also have increase barbarian activity but there is no reason for me to test that due to #1

[HB]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

Originally posted by HB:

Tribe and Barb raids both use the same mechanics so your not seeing anything different.

Its two different options:
1. The game is much more interesting with tribes as I can interact with them and they increase immersion (Tribes only option)
2. Finally saw raids against major factions (increased tribes strength)

Maybe the tribe strength option would also have increase barbarian activity but there is no reason for me to test that due to #1

Nope a raid is the same mechanic used by Barb or a Tribe, your not seeing anything new, the raid probability/range, upgrade to next level of unit time to perform, etc is fixed by the set up choice you picked, see post 1.

Will it be as immersive when your huge Tribes do a tribal invasion on you, or when your at war with them and exploration in there terr becomes more difficult, or that the places of babs you could more easily expand to are now starting as part of Tribe that limits your opportunity to expand without a war against aTribe.

I can see a lot of downsides to removing barbs and buffing Tribes without increasing the number of different tribes, as a design choice for OW you could have many Tribes as buffer states between main AI nations, or several large expansive ones, but hey ho each to there own.

You mentioned more love for the map, what kind of love did you have in mind?.

[zolobolo]

What I am saying is that I havent seen a single raid in my first play up till turn 100
Second play with option "Tribal Strenght" set from Normal to Aggressive, I have been the subject of 4 raids by turn 50. Maybe the option would have increased the chance for barbs to also raid but I dont have any barbs now and I dont want them :)

The two reason I prefer Tribes over barbs are:
1. Tribes can be interacted with. This increases both immersion: barbarians is a very generic concept, they dont have leaders, no character interaction which is important for a character driven game mechanic like we have here with kings queens, diplomats and all sorts of character shenanigans
2. Increase difficulty as one needs to commit to war with a larger enclave of outposts

As an example: I have invaded the Goths to the East with Rome to take land before Greece can get there but then I also got 2 raids while the war was ongoing: one from the East and one from the North.
So now I had most of my forces on the other side of the empire, a single ship to enable traversing of water, Gauls to the East whom I am in peace right now and two raids bearing down where I have minimal forces. The Tribe I have attacked to the East is sending in units to my newly gained city site so cant leave it with a single troop, and I only have a single ship to anchor on either side :)

There can be various things a player can enjoy in a game for sure - but just speaking for myself the above scenario is exactly what I am looking for in a 4x as:
1. The situation has evolved dynamically. Was not scripted but was a result of elements I can understand track but not fully predict
2. The situation is difficult: decisions need to be made and there is likely not a way to have a perfect result on all fronts

Barbarian outposts dont work for me difficulty wise (already detailed immersion above) as they are a sort of trivial decision to attack: as mentioned they serve easy expansion points but I prefer every decision to be more risky. That there is no low-hanging fruit and every single expansion effort is accompanied with risks to how long it will take, how much reinforcements will be pouring in for the enemy and how long I can afford to keep forces tied down in that front

More love to the OW map: for now I can say that a bit more area around Gaul and North from the Alps would be good and populate it with more Gauls and powerful germanic tribe(s) to act as a natural buffer. Like mentioned in the above scenario: I prefer naturally evolving limitations from the mechanics of the game: instead of cutting off the map to the East would use a very strong Tribe there to stopgap any progress in early and mid game into the area and also to constantly provide raiding opportunities to player area to the West as currently its fairly easy to mop up the tribes there and then have no danger to the area

But of course to expand the map I would assume performance optimization is needed first

[zolobolo]

As an example for dynamic difficulty here are my rough playtimes for similar type of games:
Rome2: 193h
Gladius: 450h
Stars in Shadow: 1300h

Given that I prefer ancient era over modern era I would be playing Rome2 for immersion but the issue there is that its not difficult: either the difficulty setting is normal and the other factions cannot create situations where the player is challenged or the difficulty is ranked up and the artificial bonuses and alterations to the games stats break the mechanics (such as agents)

Gladius has neutral enemies littered across the map that can pose a challenge even in mid-game depending on their composition - I see tribes working the same way: as a dynamic buffer for factions but especially for the player to break rush and prevent the player from snowballing the other major factions.

SiS also brings quite strong neutral factions (Marauders) to the table but it also has the most ideal diplomacy mechanics to create such scenarios I am looking for: Yes there are mostly no perfect solutions here either but all of the limitations to that goal are created dynamics by the mechanics of the diplomacy system. So even though the player ha a considerable leg up against the AI in tactical combat and exploiting the strategic map, the diplomacy system ensures that there are never easy decisions and the player can be overwhelmed even after +1000h on normal difficult and that is what I enjoy in a game personally :)

[HB]

Originally posted by zolobolo:

What I am saying is that I havent seen a single raid in my first play up till turn 100

Second play with option "Tribal Strenght" set from Normal to Aggressive, I have been the subject of 4 raids by turn 50. Maybe the option would have increased the chance for barbs to also raid but I dont have any barbs now and I dont want them :)

Its still using the same code for raids, your not seeing anything different, your choices in game, it targets it can reach in range are causing you to be the target of them, see them occur, they started at turn 30 with a 20% incidence to a range of 16 on normal, and rose to starting turn 25 with 30% incidence and 18 range at next leve of difficultyl, so if you mean choosing raging barbs means you see more raids/earlier then yes, but removing barbs just means you getting Tribes doing the raids instead of Barbs and Tribes.

Originally posted by zolobolo:

More love to the OW map: for now I can say that a bit more area around Gaul and North from the Alps would be good and populate it with more Gauls and powerful germanic tribe(s) to act as a natural buffer. Like mentioned in the above scenario: I prefer naturally evolving limitations from the mechanics of the game: instead of cutting off the map to the East would use a very strong Tribe there to stopgap any progress in early and mid game into the area and also to constantly provide raiding opportunities to player area to the West as currently its fairly easy to mop up the tribes there and then have no danger to the area

But of course to expand the map I would assume performance optimization is needed first

I spent some time to find out what my rig could cope with, looks like you have more of an issue than i found. Did you try adding more civs to the OW map and see the impact it had?.

I have made all of Iberia in play, and extended to the Rhine with 1 extra civ and more Tribes and have not see much of a difference in performance.

[zolobolo]

Originally posted by HB:

I spent some time to find out what my rig could cope with.

I have made all of Iberia in play, and extended to the Rhine with 1 extra civ and more Tribes and have not see much of a difference in performance.

I was thinking the same thing :)
Was looking at the base resource consumption of the game in the main menu and the overall usage does not seem to increase significantly by the map being processed (at least CPU and RAM wise):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/evxj4lin8juplw1/Start%20Menu.GIF?dl=0

If so, there should be no reason to not expand the map and place some really strong tribes there as you have done