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Hhm, didn't the Supply/Fuel used to take cargo space even in S-Sea ?
However, the starting ship has 40 hold there and 10 hold here.
Yes: and everyone thought it was a bad mechanic.
It makes some areas not that accessible from the beginning and adds risks to the exploring.
There are many other ways to get the same results, but this one is cheap and does not detract from the core of the game which is about narration and storylets, with dark and unforgiving sea just an impressive backdrop.
The problem is that, while Sunless Sea was interesting from the very first EA build, Sunless Skies core as it's presented now isn't.
I have experience right now playing a similar game where fuel (there's no food mechanic) does not use hold space. House of Many Doors, check it out. It's great, but this particular design choice was bad. Because as soon as i got rich, i went to the port where fuel was cheapest, bought up several hundred units, and now i don't ever have to worry about fuel again. It's become a complete non issue, and essentially removed a game mechanic.
Fuel SHOULD use hold space.
However i will agree that the hold space in sunless skies is far too small. You only get 10 space compared to 30 from the previous game. It needs to be significantly increased
Not sure what you mean about the grid map. It means that new winchester is always centre so you can get back to home relatively easy.
You're right about the economy, and the port reports. I miss the sarcastic quips from the admiral about each one. howeever reports were nevere meant to fully sustain you, quest rewards should be filling in the gap
Combat is a skill based dogfighting game now, there's not likely to be any targeting. In this case you have to git gud. I do agree we should see names of ships we're fighting, but i sure don't want any autoaim removing challenge from it
The bat using supplies is also good. You just hate it because the economy is so harsh right now. Yes the economy is a massive problem and it affects other things, but try to view issues while imagining an economy that works
Multi levels? Do you mean like diving down to the lower sky?
It seems like they've used ZLevels to allow upper and lower parts of settlements and give them more verticality, but the visitable parts are still in the centre. there's no real boundary like the ocean surface, to justify traversing levels imo
I already talked about the fuel/supplies using hold. Your opinion is wrong :p
Definitely agree on the bat distance and the lamp thing. its too easy to crash into things you thought you could fly over
I think the new levelling system is a neat idea, although i'm worried about the limits of it. That lv20 being the last one looks ominous, i dont want to suddenly stop improving at an arbitrary point
You didn't read the suggestion: I'm fine with each train having X slots for fuel, but having it in the cargo slots is messy. There's functionally no difference, apart from you're not having to balance trade items against fuel - e.g. 1 devilbone dice takes as much space as 1 fuel...
Oh, and for the record: trains always had separate fuel / cargo sections in any case.
It's to do with how the game mechanics work. If you have a centre spot X (London) that's your start / end point, with no map <- to the east, then you're really only having to do 1/2 a circle (think about it...).
With Winchester at the centre of a full circle, you just tripled travel times and didn't alter the fuel / supplies mechanics = broken.
Having to balance fuel/supplies against cargo is part of the gameplay challenge. In sunless sea you had to think about the benefits of carrying lots of cheap fuel from the iron republic, vs the cost of not having that space available for cargo. It forced you to take risks like carrying barely enough fuel and carefully calculating your needs, so you could ship back a larger haul of ivory or sapphires
That seperate fuel section you talk about already exists, its called the engine. A unit of fuel is taken out of cargo, and put into the engine, where it slowly burns down. You can imagine this as a crate of coal being emptied onto the floor of the boiler room, where its gradually shoveled in until done. Taking a new crate out of cargo only happens when the previous one is all gone
And you're still not making any sense. Travelling to the east now would consume HALF as much as before, since the start point is in the middle. IF you travel in a straight line back its the same.
If you're going to make a full voyage in a circle around the perimeter of the reach, i think even that would have less cost than a full journey around the edges of the neath.
show me this math
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem
Yes, traveling one direction would take 1/2 the time (if the distances between ports were the same - they're not, Sunless Sky are about twice as large, check out the map on the starting post), but that's not how the route system works.
I'll make this simple:
In Sunless Sea:
X1 - London
X2..........Y3...........Z3
X1...........Y2...........Z2
X3...........Y1...........Z1
Plot a course starting from X, ending at X where X1 = London. Then count the distance + # stops.
Then do it with this:
Where A3 = London (Sunless Sea) and C3 = Winchester (Sunless Sky), but the distance between points in Sunless Sea is 1/2 that of Sunless Sky.
A.......B.........C.........D...........E
A2.....B2.......C2.......D2.........E2
A3.....B3.......C3.......D3.........E3
A4.....B4.......C4.......D4.........E4
A5.....B5.......C5.......D5.........E5
And calculate the difference between A3 and C3 being your start / stop points and figuring in that you need to maximise # port stops each journey because of the economy of port reports. Then work it out further when you have to deliver good x from A5 to E in both systems and tell me how that changes the dynamic.
Note: if you come back and say "they're the same", I ignore you, since you just failed math 101.
Hint: 10 ports for A3, 12 for C3. Then factor that in across the board, for each and every journey.
Please stop telling me how Sunless Sea works - I've over 130 hrs played in it, I'm aware of the mechanics.
And, you've failed to factor in engine fuel cost efficiency vrs ship weight etc so you're not even understanding the game mechanics of what we're talking about.
I however disagree with some of your other points:
- The new experience mechanic is very interesting as it allows you to paint a backstory for your character. Maybe that's not your style, but Failbetter games attract many people who like roleplaying and customisation, so I imagine many of them (me, for example) will find them a lot of fun. Also, phrases like "It's not as engaging or fun as you imagined as you coded all those various buttons to press" are really uncalled for.
- "Space doesn't work in 2D games unless you work hard at it. Pop-in clouds don't count: the reason for this is that with sea you get the illusion of depth (the eye percieves a 'floor') - you can't do this with an infinite void, it just makes the top layer look odd" - funny how you say it doesn't work and there is no illusion of depth, yet I have a very strong illusion of depth, maybe because there's a lot of stuff on different layers happening down there?
- You generally seem to have a problem with a space game on 2D plane - but IMHO it's more a question of taste than things working or not, there's quite a lot of 2D space games that people play with no problems.
And some of your other points I consider not so well-thought-out
- Economy: You DO realize they SPECIFICALLY said things like trade (which is a huge part of the economy) are not yet implemented? So maybe don't stress over that TOO much.
- "We're in space so no unifying theme and sense of a World" - I am not even sure how to start talking about this one. How is space a less thematic setting than an ocean? In what way? Is the problem with lack of character and characterization (in which case, there's quite a lot of it there already - the lonely islands drifting below you, the pieces of older places, the clear sense of a world that's strange and shattered) or with just you disliking space as a setting (in which case, why did you buy this game?!?)
- "Used to SS/Zum: why no multi-levels?" - well maybe because making a second layer is in many ways making twice as big a map, which might be too costly to make for one game (remember that you had to pay for the expansion to get a second layer in Zubmariner)?
- "a lot of the fluff makes no sense" - How do you know that, not yet knowing most of the fluff? How can you say which stuff floating in space makes sense and which doesn't without yet knowing the potential answers and reasons behind this stuff?
The thing you are saying about the grid still make much sense to me, I mean, I get it that the longer travel times might be a problem, but I still can't see the problem with the starting point in the centre. You may have a point, but your explanation explained 0 things to me. Tell me an example course that you think would be less optimal with a centre starting point, please.
Finally, if seeing a space train instead of a space zeppelin makes you want to uninstall right away... Well, I wonder why you bought the Early Access in the first place as it was shown quite clearly in the screenshots and concept art.
Well first of all, "I'm right so ♥♥♥♥ you" is not a conducive way to conduct debate.
Your argument hinges entirely, and solely, on the hitherto un-seen assertion that the distance betwen ports is larger. Now whether or not that is true is a different matter, and you'd also need to factor in mobement speed, but that's beside the point - the shape of the map is completely irrelevant to the equation
And since you bring it up, the travelling salesman problem proves you extremely wrong. If you take the case of wanting to visit every port in one voyage (i dont know why you'd do that) then its far, far, FAR easier to do in a circular map with a central starting point
You'd take a path something like this: http://i.imgur.com/Pb040u6.png
zigzagging back and forth as you go around the circle.
Try doing the same on a square map, it just doesnt work. its a lot harder to pull off, and will result in a longer route
What the circular map is far more conducive to, is visiting any single port and then coming back. Whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on personal taste, but its certainly more convenient
And i have 360 hours. If you want to wave digital ♥♥♥♥♥ around, i win that contest. So please don't go there.
Fuel efficiency and ship weight havent shown up as mechanics in sunless skies at all. I don't see what they have to do with the issue of fuel using cargo either
chill out dood
They do in Sunless Sea: cargo space is only one of three game mechanics (well, four if you count items / crew who can add +engine efficiency) at play. I was making the simple point that your "load up 100 units" was not exactly correct in terms of game mechanics.
You're not very good at irony, are you? Since, you know, that was your entering statement.
I already gave you an example: 10 nodes visited vrs 12.
The distances are notably larger: as stated before, check the map in the first post. You'll note large sections to the N / NW without ports.
And yes, the map shape does matter in calculating these things.
And yes, Sunless Sea was built with x1 port / grid square (with some blanks, later used in Zum), this is fundamental to how the game works.
And no, you don't understand the travelling salesperson with that scrawl.
And yet I'm not the one who has been mansplaining Sunless Sea as if the other doesn't know how it works. See the projection? That's twice now: does something, then calls the other person out for that behavior.
Yeah, done with replying to you.