Tomb of Raithwall PTSD: The First Signs of Game Design Failing

[MoonlitDNC]

"And then I explored the Tomb and suddenly the bad memories of the PS2 version came flooding back...."

I've got about 60 hours on my save so far and was quickly approaching the Tomb of Raithwall, soon to get my first Esper. Up to this point, the game has been a blast. I'm a big fan of FFXI, been playing Zodiac Age like an offline version of 11, and the story (now that I'm older and know where it's going) as well as all of the various equipment/combat strategies have been great. The breakneck pacing of the story finally starts to lull a bit here, once you are tasked with journeying through the vast desert west of Rabanastre. I think it's three full maps of on-foot travel, but there's a lot of variety in treasure and enemies to discover along the way so it's not so bad.

But then the Tomb of Raithwall happens. After what was multiple hours of exploring every nook and cranny of the desert leading here, the Tomb is a giant, BORING hallway. The treasure placement is bad, the treasures dropping aren't ~as~ interesting as what was in the desert preceding it (weird, being this a King's tomb), and the stairs and hallways are soooooooo unessesarily long, much time in here is simply spent watching the floor texture cycle under your party and you mindlessly proceed forward - the final section being a very large, very empty straight line.

It's absolutely baffling. Here, you have a game designed around a party that moves at a fixed speed, and what do you do? Physically require the player to spend MULTIPLE minutes of their life watching their characters as they run and do nothing. Thankfully, Zodiac Age eliminates ~most~ of this problem with the new speedup button - sprinting through this place simply makes it a quick and boring experience rather than a long one to endure - but it's here that the bad memories come flooding back, of the parts of FF12 that for whatever reason, seem like the designers rushed and barely managed to cobble something playable together.

Searching around online, it seems to be here in the Tomb, after a purposely-unwinnable boss at the entrance, that new players become demoralised & see a ~hard dropoff~ and only the most committed press onward - a shame, since the game opens up quite a bit in the next chapter. So were there more traps planned? A chase sequence of some kind outside of the Demon Wall fights? Imagine running frantically through these hallways as blades and boulders chase.... yet there are none now, so the whole experience is empty.

.....and "empty" is the feeling I was left with when I finished the original PS2 version back in the day. The whole thing is very unfortunate. I don't plan to stop here - I'm in fact quite excited to continue, but the Tomb of Raithwall is the first glimpse of a FF12 where players that are not married to its plot at this point, are likely going to be lost. Most of the QoL additions of Zodiac Age smooths the larger issues over, but if someone in 2022 were to ask me "why wasn't the PS2 FFXII game as highly regarded by players as something like FF6 or FF7 even though it reviewed so well on launch?" - I'd point them to footage of the party, lacking in any sort of speedup/sprint ability, plodding slowly through the Tomb of Raithwall to illustrate the issue.

[MoonlitDNC]

Most players are probably going to start unlocking their first Quickenings around this point in the game as well, and there's not really any fanfare. There's a moment where Fran mentions the Mist - we start hearing a lot more about it in the Tomb than most of the game prior, but Penelo says something about leaving those concerns to Vaan and that is all. Quickenings themselves are a rather busted system of RNG, originally one that ate your MP (and thankfully doesn't in Zodaic Age). I'd be shocked to find a new FF12 player that at first glance, knows how Quickening Charges and Shuffling work to form chains. It's not an intuitive system, each Chain scene used to take time to load (thankfully this is the SSD era), and once you've watched a scene, all a Quickening accomplishes is to slow the pace of the fight further in a gamble for burst damage.

....and the first Esper is granted with minimal fanfare as well - compare most of Yuna's emotional journey as a summoner, unlocking new companions in FF10 to Belias simply just sitting in front of a door, the party approaches, and.... fight. There's lore behind the moment, but it doesn't feel ~special~. Definitely not after the slog that the Tomb is. Ashe even snarkily comments to Balthier something like "what, you didn't know this was the treasure we would find?"

If some grand scene or tutorial'ing of Quickenings had been placed here, if some elaborate scene of the Dynast-King with Belias kneeling before him had played -the hallucination breaking the moment the Esper advances to assault the party- this moment may have been made more grand, but again, something seems very "off" and "not quite well" with the game/level design happening in the Tomb of Raithwall. I'd be interested to know how many other folks' playthroughs slowed or halted here.

[Kule02]

I get what you mean with it feeling like something is missing. Maybe instead of the empire arriving as you exit, it would have been better if they invaded the palace and you had to fight your way out, eventually losing.

The real problem with the game is that half of the dev team walked out when Sakaguchi left Squaresoft, and it took another year for the remaining team to build back. This left a permanent mark on the game and you can really feel the missing content in several areas.

I still think it's a good game and way ahead of its time, but you have to take its rough development into account and accept it for what it is.

[arenaynieve]

Dunno, different characters, different summonings, different places. I guess in my case Espers in this FF never meant that much to me. Its weird: I ENJOYED finding them however I DID NOT enjoy using them. They are just either ugly or way TOO SITUATIONAL (Please dont mind the caps xD, I am not shouting, I am just underlining what I consider important haha)

As the tomb itself eh... I dont believe its meant to have that impact in the game at that point anyway, maybe? I mean, there are places that actually were a whole roller-coaster such as the great crystal: it was mesmerizing, beautiful, misterious and of course frustrating. Other than that... I dont think I have truly enjoyed indoor dungeons in FFXII. Open areas definitely were much more enjoyable. Damn, I still remember my first struggles in Nabreus when I went underleveled/undergeared xD.

I think this FF shines for me at least, because up to an extent the game allows you to wander certain areas under your own risk and responsability. And yeah I loved that lol xD

[Casurin]

Автор сообщения: MoonlitDNC

~snip~

Ah, the april-fools comments are comming out.

[arenaynieve]

Автор сообщения: Casurin

Автор сообщения: MoonlitDNC

~snip~

Ah, the april-fools comments are comming out.

¿?... AHAHAHAHAHAHA how funny.

[Melodia]

Автор сообщения: Casurin

Ah, the april-fools comments are comming out.

Yeah it's pretty clearly a troll, given they say it took them 60 hours to get to Raithwall.

[Casurin]

Автор сообщения: Melodia

Автор сообщения: Casurin

Ah, the april-fools comments are comming out.

Yeah it's pretty clearly a troll, given they say it took them 60 hours to get to Raithwall.

No no no no -

60 hours on my save so far and was quickly approaching

That is one hell of a speedrun there :P

[Hinnyuu]

I am scared of the internet. I'm increasingly losing the ability to discern between what is surely a humorous troll post on April 1st, and what is a genuine example of someone being so far removed from my own reality yet completely sincere.

[MoonlitDNC]

It's intentional actually. I started a blind/from-memory 100% map exploration, 100% subquests & secret scenes, 100% treasures/items/equipment, 100% bestiary Completionist run of the Struggle for Freedom mod last February. Been progressively chipping away at it this past year. HowLongToBeat suggests a Completionist run of OG PS2 takes between 160 and 300 hours, and the mod version I'm using makes Zodiac Age play like OG PS2 "but with an edge to it".

This person uploaded a PS2 Demon Wall fight back in 2013:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPoml7dLqSQ

Coincidentally, I have roughly the exact same stats and a very similar party composition to them, and their travel steps and playtime are mine cut ~exactly~ in half at that point in the game.... Struggle for Freedom bumps most, if not all encounters to 2x HP. Even just running around Rabanastre each new chapter and grabbing all townsfolks's new NPC dialogue takes about 40 minutes each time too.
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Автор сообщения: neonsquare

I get what you mean with it feeling like something is missing....

The real problem with the game is that half of the dev team walked out when Sakaguchi left Squaresoft, and it took another year for the remaining team to build back.

Agreed for sure - back on my original PS2 launch playthrough, I remember hitting a point in FF12's story, an EXACT moment where "this feels like an entirely new team took over the story direction". I recall it being quite jarring, and I'm at least anticipating it this time and hoping to soften the blow/temper my expectations accordingly.

Автор сообщения: arenaynieve

Dunno, different characters, different summonings, different places. I guess in my case Espers in this FF never meant that much to me. Its weird: I ~enjoyed~ finding them however I ~did not~ enjoy using them. They are just either ugly or way ~too situational~

Other than that... I dont think I have truly enjoyed indoor dungeons in FFXII. Open areas definitely were much more enjoyable. Damn, I still remember my first struggles in Nabreus when I went underleveled/undergeared xD.

I think this FF shines for me at least, because up to an extent the game allows you to wander certain areas under your own risk and responsability. And yeah I loved that lol xD

I'm thankful Espers can be directly controlled on this version, it at least makes them feel functionally more meaningful in combat, but yes, still highly situational.

And wandering the maps? Definitely - over the year that I've been doing my Completionist run, the greatest moments have been the ones where I've snuck into an area I'm underleveled for, only to run screaming with my new prize back to the save crystal (I modded out per-map auto-saves, so it's just like OG PS2's level of panic). I feel like it near-perfectly captures the FFXI Online experience of a train of Goblin Fishermen chasing you to the zone line.

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Now that the Tomb of Raithwall is done and the rest of the game is much more opened up (can literally pick like 3 separate directions to explore) that excitement has returned again. It's been an interesting look inward this past year, at why PS2 FF12 left both such a memorable mark AND such a level of disappointment in my memory back when it launched.

There wasn't a single negative experience in the game until that Raithwall map. Every forum thread and YouTube comment about the place I can retroactively pull up keeps reinforcing that "this was the place I stopped playing, or restarted my save" testimony I keep encountering. If I come away with anything from the Tomb of Raithwall, it's that of all the strengths FF12 has as "the last classic 3D Final Fantasy before FF13 happened", Raithwall is ~NOT~ one of the game's better maps/experiences.

[KaitoKid]

Who asked?

[Federicocap]

I never liked the tomb neither, and I remember stoping one or two of my replays at the tomb. However, the first time I reached the tomb playing the zodiac age on steam, I felt something different. I watched the design, more than the encounters, and I have to say it is magnificent. The architecture, the ambience, the mist, how BIG is the building, it's just nuts how I fell that I never appreciated it as much as it deserved. Also, the demon wall can be defeated later

[arenaynieve]

@MoonlitDNC I can see in your quotation that you used "~" instead of caps xD. I like your alternative. I´ll try to remember that for the next time.

[Nito]

Hehe i killed the first demonwall so far the only thing close to a challenge on FFXII

FFXII is shamefully easy on 90% of the time the corridors annoy me much less as the time spells take to actually allow another action and that spells on the field are so annoying to keep on re applying

[Hinnyuu]

Автор сообщения: Nito

FFXII is shamefully easy on 90% of the time

Consider trying some mods!

I can strongly recommend Struggle for Freedom. If difficulty is what you seek, try the Proud Mode version - it'll kick your butt, and then some ;)

[MoonlitDNC]

Автор сообщения: arenaynieve

@MoonlitDNC I can see in your quotation that you used "~" instead of caps xD. I like your alternative. I´ll try to remember that for the next time.

Thanks, I've seen it around once or twice and it helps keep quote posts short and concise.

Автор сообщения: Nito

Hehe i killed the first demonwall so far the only thing close to a challenge on FFXII

FFXII is shamefully easy on 90% of the time the corridors annoy me much less as the time spells take to actually allow another action and that spells on the field are so annoying to keep on re applying

Yeah, it's why the Struggle for Freedom mod has been really nice, most of the combat has been rebalanced and feels much closer to the original PS2 release since the Zodiac Age remaster made a lot of the enemies easier stat-wise. It's got some smart Quality-of-Life changes that make some spells/buffs stay active longer (scales with VIT) so you dont have to keep recasting them constantly too.

True NG+
SFF 1.8.4 (Unchanged Jobs Version)
Brutal Auto Save - Location Only

....those three mods working together generally make the entire game feel on par with the PS2 release while additionally removing a lot of the really weird stuff like the Seitengrat bow RNG (it's a legit treasure to be discovered now) and tweaking spells to be more useful - Thunder instantly casts now, Horology and Traveler have actual utility....

With Zodiac Age making the fights easier, you can usually finish off the first Demon Wall quite early compared to the OG PS2 version. Worst part is, I think Zodiac Age removed the sword you get after the fight, but the SFF mod adds it back. Is the sword worth the trouble? Debatable, but equipment usually feels like more of a treasure to find than random spell motes.