Rdm vs blm

[Nezkeys]

Im curious if rdm can compare to blm as an offensive mage by itself albeit slightly weaker. This appears to be the blm best damage output for the majority of the game....

Oil+Fire (single target tho sadly)
Aero
Oil>Fira
Oil>Firaga

However Rdm gets access to all of that too but just has to wait for chuchulain but thats fine as i wouldnt really want chuchulain on anything else except shikari (which is a vote for Shikari/Rdm which also gets protectga and shellga) and i also think oil+fira will carry me until im strong enough to beat chuchulain.

One other thing about rdm/shikari... if im gonna make the hybrid all rounder class in shikari/rdm wouldnt i just be better off using blm/knight instead? Ive basically started to doubt blm/rdm cause all im getting is ardor and scathe together basically

[Sakhari]

Black Mage staves can boost fire, ice, lightning, water, wind, and holy damage by 50%. By itself, the Red Mage can only get a bonus to Dark or Holy damage via the Black/White robes and the Zeus Mace.

For the most part, the Red Mage is still fine as an offensive caster but Black does have a significant advantage in potential damage output.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Sakhari:

Black Mage staves can boost fire, ice, lightning, water, wind, and holy damage by 50%. By itself, the Red Mage can only get a bonus to Dark or Holy damage via the Black/White robes and the Zeus Mace.

For the most part, the Red Mage is still fine as an offensive caster but Black does have a significant advantage in potential damage output.

Well for instance early mid game blm one shots with aero a lot and then obviously will with oil+fira. Depends how much significant is...if it means the rdm two shots or 3 shots...i think thats probably still fine lol

[Hinnyuu]

It depends how you play, and what you want.

Red Battlemage trades damage for utility. You lose the ability to boost elements outside of dark/holy but you gain utility spells like Disable/Immobilize and some healing. How that trade turns out depends on the job combo you're in, and what you plan on doing with it.

Shikari/Red Battlemage, for example, I usually play as a tank and not a damage dealer. However it's a more offensively oriented tank, spamming a lot of spells instead of attacking. You run around maintaining debuffs like Disable or Sleepga (sleeping enemies take 50% more damage), or use damage spells. It's a more active tank than, say, Shikari/White Battlemage, and can be very useful if you plan on venturing into high-level areas early, where crow-controlling enemies is more important.

Elemental boosts are actually quite significant. While it may seem like you are oneshotting enemies a lot, that's usually only at the very start when you've just acquired a new tier of spells - for example, Aero might oneshot things in the Sandsea areas (and not everything there, either) but will not do so back in Giza Rain or Ozmone (which is the next story bit) let alone in areas that open up outside of the story shortly after that point (like Mosphoran/Salikawood/Nabreus/Nabudis). Having elemental boosts there is a significant damage increase. The same is true at endgame, where even with 99 MAG an unboosted Ardor will not automatically oneshot trash mobs in Henne Mines or Subterra, but boosted it will (or be more likely to, depending on what enemy).
And that's just trash, not even talking about boss mobs or high-level marks, some of which you actively want to be using spell damage against.

Oil, by the way, is hardly an argument AGAINST boosts - quite the contrary. On trash mobs, boosts save you having to cast Oil because you deal more damage anyway. And on bosses, boosts and Oil synergize, allowing you to deal EVEN MORE damage - and it won't be wasted because of the boss' high HP.

Personally, I've always much preferred to just run Black Mage/Red Battlemage and concentrate your offensive casting in one character. I found the situations where I want to use it at endgame specific enough that a one-character focus gives me the best mix of flexibility and specialization, while my party setup during early/mid game is already so busted (thanks to Machinist) that even if I'm not using the Black Mage/Red Battlemage I still obliterate everything in seconds. And if I'm not, well, I can always just switch it in. Nabudis, for example, I like to do with tank/machinist/magemage and it has worked very well for me.

That being said, hybrids like Knight/Black Mage or Archer/Red Battlemage are undeniably powerful. They lend themselves to a different playstyle, with less party switching and more character control. You have an easier time adapting to situations on the fly, and you do better on fights where it's difficult to change party members (because of prolific area damage, say). The opportunity cost is fairly low since magic is easy to increase, and you also get more resilient mages if you pair them with sturdy jobs. It's probably more user-friendly and more forgiving than a highly specialized setup that can definitely feel a little like a glass cannon at times.

In the end, and to no one's surprise, it comes down to how YOU like to play.

[Nezkeys]

Honestly once i got fira and fire staff the blm one shotted everything with fira and then firaga plus oil and i just didnt see the point in using any melees attackers at all. The blm could have just soloed everything tbh. A whm was there just in case and the other guy just stole. I never actually tested if they could without oil tbh. but youre right after a while aero was only 2 shotting (3 max). Thing is though no melee can hit aoe. If only one of the characters had a whip like in dragon quest. Tbh hand bombs should be aoe lol.

I think if you run whm/shikari you cant have two main attackers as someone else in the party is applying time magic or buffs which means theyre not attacking, but i guess if yiu have blm you only need one attacker and for that reason im interested in blm/knight for the versatility tbh. This is why i think my fave whm is whm/time but im eager to finish this playthrough and start a new game. In that playthrough i kinda wanna try new stuff which is why i dont wanna run knight/bushi...as strong as it is. Im struggling to decide though as cant run all the quirky sets i wanna run :( so far i have this

Whm/Shikari
Knight/Time (this gets curaga and curaja via espers so yeah wtf its a paladin with time magic so all 3 rolled into one. pretty much seems like a similar concept to whm shikari...a tank that is also a main healer? Probably better tbh as no relying on evasion? Again tho a lot of this is dependant on how early knight can become the main healer and whether a rdm/shikari could hold its own as a main healer until then. Damn this combo sounds more god tier the more i look at it)
Monk/Time (sounds similar to knight/time but able to hit fliers more reliably)
Monk/Foebreaker (just so i can use genji gloves on monk really but they come much later so i can use hand bombs until then. I like enfeebles. Mind you the combo underneath enables me to have a monk with genji gloves).
Bushi/Monk (kanya and masamune/kumbha on the same character but at this point who cares as id have already completed the game lol)
Blm/Rdm (rdm only aooears to be adding ardor which is very late. In this current playthrough im near the end and killed almost eveything so i just dont see why id need ardor. The whole game > one or two endgame bosses??)
Rdm/Shikari(i dont see the point of this when i have the blm/rdm and the whm shikari. Like i said tho if rdm can hold its own with aero and oil:fira/firaga then id probably not even use a blm at all this run even tho i know how op it is on trash mobs. If i can get chuhulain asap this combo looks quite fun)
Blm/Knight (sounds even better than blm/monk tbh)
Whm/Foebreaker (good choice to have my handbombs attacker lol but then id be running two whm)
Whm/Machinist (as ive said before im a fan of this comb on paper but not really a fan of the fact hastega ans famfrit come right at the end of the game as i dont think id be using machinist as a dps,but the fact a lot recommend it out makes me curious and maybe i should cause its something different and guns also get enfeebles i think)

The only reason i have foebreaker at all is cause i like using hand bombs for the enfeebles and the only other way is to use 2-3 espers on the blm but that screws other class combos up a bit. Also how many times will the blm face enemies immune to magic that are susceptible to status ailments too? Lol prob not many. I also wanted to use a monk with genji gloves on that run and it would appear foebreaker is probably best "wasted" on the monk in that regard. I feel like bushi/monk is gonna probably suck due to no heavy armour tho. I kinda wanna try a poles/spear user melee this time as in this run it was either swords, ninja swords, or katanas and was just using the blm for fliers. I probably just answered my own question there tho proving spears and poles are probably useless when you have a blm in the party. I toyed with the idea of making a whm/foebreaker so i had a beefy whm that used range attacks (hand bombs) as opposed to the melee whm/shikari

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Honestly once i got fira and fire staff the blm one shotted everything with fira and then firaga plus oil and i just didnt see the point in using any melees attackers at all. The blm could have just soloed everything tbh. A whm was there just in case and the other guy just stole. I never actually tested if they could without oil tbh. but youre right after a while aero was only 2 shotting (3 max). Thing is though no melee can hit aoe.

Applying Oil to trash mobs is highly inefficient. You're better off just spamming damage most of the time. Oil is for enemies where you actually get to cast several times (like bosses/marks).
Magic is definitely highly efficient against groups, but single-target/priority damage has its place as well. Especially against dangerous mobs you want things to die quickly - that's why I like pairing a caster with a Machinist, so you have both. The caster puts out constant damage on everything, while the Machinist picks off priority targets so you don't get overwhelmed by incoming damage. This may be irrelevant in trivial areas (most strategies are), but it's very useful for high-level areas early in the game.

Also, and this is a very important part, caster cannot be in berserk. Since Berserk cuts charge time in half (as well as increasing damage by 50%), attackers get more hits in than casters. On low HP mobs, this can easily mean they've killed something before you got a cast off (especially when using Excalibur + White Robes on holy-weak enemies...), and it also means they get a lot more hits in overall.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

I think if you run whm/shikari you cant have two main attackers as someone else in the party is applying time magic or buffs which means theyre not attacking

This seems like a very strange statement to me. The whole POINT of going Shikari/White Mage is so that you can run with two pure damage dealers. Because the tank can heal and keep up Bravery/Faith, it allows you to just go full damage with everyone else - either two (berserked) attackers, or an (berserked) attacker and a caster. Why would you need more support characters?

Support overload is one of the big pitfalls. I see people with setups that spend half the fight buffing instead of actually attacking, which is ludicrous to me. You don't need every buff on everyone at all times. You'll never stop buffing that way. Pick the most important buffs - Bravery/Faith above all else, as well as Berserk (if you're manually applying it rather than via Berserker Bracers). Maintain Decoy on the tank. Everything else is secondary, and situational. Maintaining Shell/Protect on everyone is usually highly inefficient and not needed with proper tanking.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Blm/Rdm (rdm only aooears to be adding ardor which is very late. In this current playthrough im near the end and killed almost eveything so i just dont see why id need ardor. The whole game > one or two endgame bosses??)

Red Battlemage doesn't only add Ardor. Ardor is the endgame go-to, but usually for bosses. For trash, the faster animation on Firaga is usually better. However, the most important part about Red Battlemage isn't Ardor - it's the utility spells during early/mid game. Without Disable/Immobilize etc. going into high-level areas is a lot more annoying. And having an additional healer before your setups have all the gear they want is certainly a big help as well, not to mention it eases the MP burden by spreading things around.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

I feel like bushi/monk is gonna probably suck due to no heavy armour tho.

Yes, Bushi/Monk is a Bushi first and foremost, not a Monk. Monk just supplies max HP, max Battle Lores, Expose/Wither, and Bravery. "Just" that.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

I kinda wanna try a poles/spear user melee this time as in this run it was either swords, ninja swords, or katanas and was just using the blm for fliers. I probably just answered my own question there tho proving spears and poles are probably useless when you have a blm in the party. I toyed with the idea of making a whm/foebreaker so i had a beefy whm that used range attacks (hand bombs) as opposed to the melee whm/shikari

Poles are great, and quite competitive with katana. I personally favor Monk/Knight for Poles, but Monk/Foebreaker is also alright if you want to use Foebreaker. As long as you get heavy armor and Genji Gloves you're fine.
Spears aren't that great overall, but they do have Holy Lance (boost with White Robes) and Zodiac Spear (if you bother to get it) does pack a wallop. Uhlan/White Mage for example is something I could see as a possibility, but I haven't actually looked at Uhlan much. Spears just aren't good enough for me to actually ever want to use them, I guess.

[Nezkeys]

As i said the only reason i want to use a foebreaker is cause this run i kinda wanna use hand bombs more for something different. I feel like the least painful options for that would be monk/foebreaker (altho poles/handbombs kinda does seem redundant since the only reason to use poles or spears is to hit fliers. This is why my second choice would be whm/foebreaker since the whm wouldnt have any massive dps anyway and it just feels right to me to be providing enfeebles via attacks when not healing. I wouldnt wanna repeat shikari/foebreaker and i cant really think of any other combos where foebreaker would be good to main as hand bombs. This next playthrough i just wanna try combos out. Full on optimization/best party ever can wait lol (and its not even necessary i feel so i may get more fun with a "challenge"). Im gonna take out the bushi/monk as the lack of heavy armour will hurt it aye and prob use monk/knight instead.

However there is no doubt excalibur+white robes is op as hell on undeads though (it still didnt beat oil+firaga mind you) so im tempted just to have a knight/mystic armour user in just as backup in case i go to quirky.id wanna do knight/blm to try something new but then id have no bushi at all which means no masamune so meh

[Nezkeys]

1. Knight/Time or Monk/Time (tanky white/time...main healers? Esper hogs particularly in monk/times case but so what thats fine if they are true paladins, and the time magic making a 3 way support character just sounds too damn good)

2. Blm/Rdm (id prob start with another class tbh until aero is unlocked as if im gonna use single target spells oil+fire would be the only sensible option and in that case i may as well just have a melee or ranged dps). The Machinist could be an optional dps here as i never used machinist this playthrough, but i think that would rely on getting arcturus asap.

3. Foebreaker/Monk (hand bombs main until it transitions into a genji user later on lol). Two ranged attackers with the knight/time tanking and healing is enough difference to play the game again for fun

4. ??????

5. Knight/Bushi (backup genji monster in case im exerimenting too much although i really dont wanna waste a slot using something ive already tried so suggestions for a replacement genji user welcome here)

6. Whm/Shikari or Whm/Machinist in case .1 classes arent actually good at main healing as i think they are, although both look amazing via espers and they both look they are essentially the same as whm/shikari but both hit harder and come with time magic too and dont rely on evasion where evasion is useless after a certain point? Knight/Time does get shield blocks tho :)

How does this look? Which would you recommend in 1. and 6.? 4. can be literally anything i guess. I aim to main party 1 2 and 3 and level up 456 as late game dps and healers if i need to

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

altho poles/handbombs kinda does seem redundant since the only reason to use poles or spears is to hit fliers.

Poles do great damage. Because they don't rely on a secondary stat, they often outdamage katana at low to medium levels, and because they charge faster than katana they remain competitive even at higher levels.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

However there is no doubt excalibur+white robes is op as hell on undeads though (it still didnt beat oil+firaga mind you)

That seems dubious to me. Given that you lose a cast to Oil and can't berserk, you'll lose on short fights. And because spells can't combo, you'll lose on long fights. I guess if you don't use berserk and stay at 100% HP all the time, fire might come out ahead. But then what are you doing with your attackers :P

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

How does this look? Which would you recommend in 1. and 6.? 4. can be literally anything i guess. I aim to main party 1 2 and 3 and level up 456 as late game dps and healers if i need to

Should do fine. Knight/Time Battlemage is probably better if you plan on tanking because it has a shield, but if you go slow on the progression Monk/Time Battlemage works as well.

As for the White Mage situation, it depends on what you want to do with it. I like White Mage/Machinist a whole lot (in fact it's my favorite combo of all) but it certainly has very specific applications. If you don't plan to use them, it's probably not as good.
White Mage/Shikari is a great tank, but if you plan on just using it for damage you can do something else as well since you want to be berserked anyway so you're not casting.

[Nezkeys]

Well i plan on using knight/time or monk/time as the main healer/tank if possible. IF they attack at least both will hit hard. I only suggestee a whm in slot 6 if they cant main heal. However it seems to me both are just as good if not better than whm/shikari? I mean what else is a whm doing other than cura/curaga/curaja tbh? So basically the advantage is you get evasion via main gauche and can transition into yagyu/dark robes (which would mean id need another main healer when i did that). Makes me wonder what knight/shikari would be like tbh. Btw if knight/time or monk time can tank/heal just aa effectively as whm/shikari then ill probably try machinist/whm and try it as a dps in main party this time at least until aero and fira are available.

Also regarding poles/hand bombs i was just meaning from the sense if i wanted to main hands bombs they might be better off on a melee class that cant hit fliers naturally without the use of shades of black or telekinesis (although i guess those abilities arent that bad tbh and the only combos i can think of that fit that description are whm/breaker bushi/breaker knight/breaker). im weird i like enfeebling and its just funny throwing bombs too.

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Well i plan on using knight/time or monk/time as the main healer/tank if possible. IF they attack at least both will hit hard. It seems to me both are just as good if not better than whm/shikari? I meam what else is a whm doing other than cura/curaga/curaja tbh? So basically the advantage is you get evasion via main gauche. Makes me wonder what knight/shikari would be like tbh

Knight/Time Battlemage can't heal at all during early game, and is reliant on Cura from Adrammelech to Mateus, i.e. the period where you can sneak into high-level areas before story progression. You also don't get Bravery until Hashmal, which is essentially the end of the game. That means you have to run with a healer, which lowers your overall damage output. But it's far from impossible, of course.
Shikari I like to use not just because of Main Gauche (though it's certainly great to have at early/mid game), but also because it's a useful damage dealer on some boss fights (namely Ultima and Yiazmat). It isn't required, of course, but I find it fills a niche in weapon availability nicely. You could go Knight, but I'm already heavy on Knights as it is and there's only so many Excaliburs and Tournesols to go around.

Don't take anything I say as gospel, it's all contingent on personal preference and the overall setup. If you change something in one area, the relative power of other things may shift with it, and then it turns out something else might be better to take.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

im weird i like enfeebling and its just funny throwing bombs too.

This is 110% fine and absolutely how you should approach things. Play what you find FUN above all else.

If anyone's weird it's me, because I WILL be hunting for those 1% margins even if they're silly and pointless and only work because I do things one particular way and not another.

[Nezkeys]

1. Knight/Time
2. Foebreaker/Monk
3. Bushi/Knight

4. Blm/Rdm (as soon as i get aero its prob gonna go in place of the Bushi/Knight just for the simple fact i dont wanna play something ive already tried).
5. Whm/Shikari
6. Rdm/Shikari

5 and 6 just seem too much overlap tho (despite the fact im curious about both combos). This team of 6 satisfies my weird quirks of hand bombs and trying certain combos i just feel that characters 5 and 6 are just pointless when i have the paladin with time magic in slot 1.

What about Monk/Time then can that main heal any sooner? If the answer to both of these is no then i guess i could run this main team instead lol...

Whm/Shikari
Rdm/Shikari
Foebreaker/Monk

Id get my hand bombs weirdness and get to try out two new combos that cam be effective right from the start? (Assuming knight/time and monk/time as paladins are late bloomers as you say in terms of main healing). Theres a bit of everything with this three man team. Btw all the espers would pretty much be going on Monk/Time or Knight/Time i think. Tbh looking at it i dont think monk can fulfil the tank part despite its highest hp. It cant equip shields or main gauche. Only way it could was be to go monk/shikari or monk/knight (but this combo has cura/curaga/curaja on each of them and i sorta feel this class wants to be a beserked dps anyway?) so the best option for something fulfilling all three of those roles really is the knight/time for my tastes i think. Its basically a tanky whm/time and the only thing i dont like about whm/time is its hp. Oh but the knight doesnt get arise and the monk does. Its never gonna work as a main healer if you cant use arise imo. Damn thats pretty important. Maybe monk can tank lol 😎

[Nezkeys]

Im guessing hand bombs are either completely useless on a blm or highly situational (flying enemies immune to magic)? Its 2 espers for this build too since hashmal would go to monk/time and youd not get hand bombs 4. So Meh

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

(flying enemies immune to magic)

Don't think there are any of those in the entire game.

Hand bombs are useless either way, but that's okay if you still want to use them because they're fun. Their damage isn't great, so use them on someone who deals even less damage if you want to maximize efficiency.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

(flying enemies immune to magic)

Don't think there are any of those in the entire game.

Hand bombs are useless either way, but that's okay if you still want to use them because they're fun. Their damage isn't great, so use them on someone who deals even less damage if you want to maximize efficiency.

So basically whm/foebreaker lol. But then if i do that it feels sorta wrong running two whm since id have whm/shikari. And then my 3rd character would be a rdm/shikari. Seems a bit defensive to me. But i guess if i make it like foebreaker dps (backup healer) and the rdm as offensive mage/support/backup healer that could work with main healer

Also i never found them useless. Whenever my shikari/foebreaker had to switch to them they either two shot or 3 shot AND almost always apply confuse/disable/petify etc. Sure they dont do as much damage in one hit as an excalibur on holy weak enemies but theyre not that bad imo. If i try to maximize efficiency ill just be playing the game again with pretty much the same combos. Earlier my whm/time one shot an enemy in giruvegan with crossbow lol

[Nezkeys]

"Oil, by the way, is hardly an argument AGAINST boosts - quite the contrary. On trash mobs, boosts save you having to cast Oil because you deal more damage anyway. And on bosses, boosts and Oil synergize, allowing you to deal EVEN MORE damage - and it won't be wasted because of the boss' high HP."

It takes one second for the whm to cast oil then the blm casts firaga based of a foe status: oil gambit. Sometimes i saw that firaga alone only two shot. The whole process on "trash" mobs is over in like 2-3 seconds. Btw on bosses nearly every single one i fought was immune to oil which is annoying. Some resist/absorb elements too and libra doesnt work on some of them iirc. hence why im not a fan of blm on bosses and just prefer two genji melee and a whm