Best melee combos

[Nezkeys]

Okay so what are the pros and cons of these genji glove users and maybe rank them if possible because i cant use them all with my desired party so want 2 of the following beserked genji users and just another high dps possibly hybrid for qol. It doesnt matter if it overlaps with classes im already using. I also like the quality of life of having a melee user that can hit fliers so i think a monk or uhlan using primarily poles or spears should be one of them...and most likely a monk since it gets breaks without an esper iirc. Maybe i should just make an archer/red or archer/uhlan so i can put seitengrat on something if i ever get it?

1. Bushi/Knight (Excalibur)
2. Bushi/Monk (Masamune/Kumbha)
3. Monk/Knight (Whale Whisker)
4. Shikari/Bushi (Yagyu Darkblade)
5. Shikari/Foebreaker (Orochi?)
6. Bushi/Breaker (Masamune/Kumbha)
7. Monk/Breaker (Whale Whisker)
8. Uhlan/Bushi (Zspear/Masa/Kumb)
9. Uhlan/Knight (Zspear)
10. Uhlan/Foebreaker (Zspear)

Rest of the party is this so far...

Whm/Machinist (ranged healer)
Rdm/Shikari (tanky melee healer that will also have aga nukes via chuchulain). Im open to use whm/shikari here as well depending on which would be better overall.
Blm/Rdm (pure mage)

[Hinnyuu]

Depends on various factors. There's obvious differences between fights in terms of length and mechanics, and there's stat differences depending on level bracket that play into everything from gear to character selection. Not to mention things like elemental weaknesses.

That is why rather than a ranking order I prefer simply a list of various options, along with an explanation of their various strengths.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

Depends on various factors. There's obvious differences between fights in terms of length and mechanics, and there's stat differences depending on level bracket that play into everything from gear to character selection. Not to mention things like elemental weaknesses.

That is why rather than a ranking order I prefer simply a list of various options, along with an explanation of their various strengths.

Atm two of the choices are leaning towards knight/bushi and monk/bushi, and just have it switch to whale whisker for fliers. That just leaves one slot which i guess i can use for the optimal yiazmat battle since i already have a healer a tank and a mage. Theoretically I would have a shikari/rdm and whm/machinist for that battle so what would my 5th member be? Maybe i just have a clone of one of those two so i have another full hp machine ready to go should they fall(altho phoenix downs or raise arent hard to use i guess). Maybe just put an archer in on the slim chance seitengrat drops for me lol? Or just have uhlan in there for the "fk off original zodiac spear nonsense im having my revenge this time" . Maybe i just put the foebreaker in so i have all breaks, and naturally the best combo for that is probably shikari i guess (meh)

The party would look like this...

Knight/Bushi (balthier)
Monk/Bushi (basch)
Shikari/Rdm (vaan)
Whm/Machinist (ashe)
Blm/Rdm (penelo)
??????????????? (fran)

With that i have two genji users, a tank, a healer, and a mage, and possibly have two of the best options already for the yiazmat fight(shikari/bushi would be the 3rd i guess?). I guess im just missing the breaks in this party (although technically that monk can use two of them). The final slot should either be another dps with foebreaker or a whm with foebreaker for a melee whm? Id like to experience both shik/red and shik/whm but i guess thats completely redundant

[Hinnyuu]

I prefer Knight/Bushi and Knight/Monk if you're swapping weapons. Or those two AND Monk/Bushi if you want optimization out the ears.

Also the best pole is Kanya, not Whale Whisker.

I don't like optimizing for Yiazmat. While it's the longest fight, it's far from the hardest. Particularly when using Wither, which makes it a complete joke. But I guess it's up to the individual which fight you want to focus on for endgame optimization.

Foebreaker is just useless, Addle/Shear are practically never worth casting.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

I prefer Knight/Bushi and Knight/Monk if you're swapping weapons. Or those two AND Monk/Bushi if you want optimization out the ears.

Also the best pole is Kanya, not Whale Whisker.

I don't like optimizing for Yiazmat. While it's the longest fight, it's far from the hardest. Particularly when using Wither, which makes it a complete joke. But I guess it's up to the individual which fight you want to focus on for endgame optimization.

Foebreaker is just useless, Addle/Shear are practically never worth casting.

So since my one monk has wither and expose covered what classes would fran get to compliment/optimize it the best? Monk/Knight? I see with that there is no swapping you just have a main greatswords/katana/poles user split up rather than having to choose. What about clones? Would two knight/bushis with excalibur/white robes just be overkill? I may end up just getting zodiac spear on this run (even though it cant equip genji cause its paired with machinist).

[Hinnyuu]

Depends on what you want to focus on.

The party I personally found strongest from all setups I tried was:

Vaan: Bushi/Monk
Balthier: Shikari/White Mage
Fran: Monk/Knight
Basch: Knight/Bushi
Ashe: Machinist/White Mage
Penelo: Black Mage/Red Battlemage

But that's tailored to MY playstyle. It doesn't necessarily work the same for other people.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

Depends on what you want to focus on.

The party I personally found strongest from all setups I tried was:

Vaan: Bushi/Monk
Balthier: Shikari/White Mage
Fran: Monk/Knight
Basch: Knight/Bushi
Ashe: Machinist/White Mage
Penelo: Black Mage/Red Battlemage

But that's tailored to MY playstyle. It doesn't necessarily work the same for other people.

Can i ask why two whms? Im assuming that you use it as a tank/healer + two beserked melee? But if thats the case why even bother with whm/machinist?

[Nezkeys]

Also the only difference in the propsed party im making to yours is this...

a) Shikari/Red > Shikari/White
b) ??????????? > Monk/Knight

Im open to the swap on a) and still undecided what my 6th member should be but i reckon id like monk/knight too. I was going to do shik/red and shik/white just to compare em lol. I guess my final slot should be another dps tho as shik/rdm and whm/machinist is gonna be pretty passive for a while i guess. Maybe i just clone the blm for 2 mages but do the hybrid you suggested of blm/knight. Not sure how that adds to this party tho. Im inclined to just add the monk/knight as i like monks licences

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

I prefer Knight/Bushi and Knight/Monk if you're swapping weapons. Or those two AND Monk/Bushi if you want optimization out the ears.

Also the best pole is Kanya, not Whale Whisker.

I don't like optimizing for Yiazmat. While it's the longest fight, it's far from the hardest. Particularly when using Wither, which makes it a complete joke. But I guess it's up to the individual which fight you want to focus on for endgame optimization.

Foebreaker is just useless, Addle/Shear are practically never worth casting.

What fights do you optimize for if not yiazmat?

[Nezkeys]

Also knight/monk...youd have to settle for 1 swiftness until you beat ultima(0 if you started with monk until you get knights board)...which im assuming is late game. Isnt this a bad thing? I do see that you can have faith/bravery/confuse/cura/curaga/curaja/protectga/shellga/esunaga/cleanse/regen/raise/arise/renew/dispelga with this combo...which is nothing to sniff at...even if its a massive esper hog to do so

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Can i ask why two whms? Im assuming that you use it as a tank/healer + two beserked melee? But if thats the case why even bother with whm/machinist?

The Machinist/White Mage is mostly Machinist for about 95% of the game. Berserker Bracers and let 'er rip.
The other 5% she's Reverse-tanking superbosses while maintaining both Bravery and Haste on the two berserked damage dealers. Plus heals with spells or Dark Shot + dark absorb gear for the fights that need it (e.g. Zodiark or Behemoth King).

The Shikari/White Mage is a tank for 99% of the game, healing/buffing at the same time so I can leave the other two members to deal damage. Ideally that'd be berserked Machinist and the Black Mage/Red Battlemage, but I'll of course switch to other combos when leveling.
The other 1% he's the standard Yagyu Darkblade + Black Robes damage dealer, mostly for Ultima and Yiazmat (for obvious reasons).

Damage dealers are whoever is strongest right now based on available gear and enemies to face. Machinist dominates most of the game, naturally, given that I rush both Arcturus and Mithuna. Black Mage/Red Battlemage is also a staple given the area damage. Others rotate as needed. On short fights or when I have to stay topped I use hard hitters over combo, i.e. Excalibur + White Robes on the Knight/Bushi and Tournesol on the Knight/Monk. Bushi/Monk is mostly for boss fights (with Kumbha) and doesn't do super well on trash. I can live with that. It's just a very small margin for the heck of it.

EDIT

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Also knight/monk...youd have to settle for 1 swiftness until you beat ultima(0 if you started with monk until you get knights board)...which im assuming is late game. Isnt this a bad thing?

You're overvaluing Swiftness at early game. During a lot of that you won't have 3 Swiftness even on characters that can have it, just because you're not there yet with the LP. And fights are super short so it barely makes a dent in overall output. The Machinist will oneshot everything anyway.
It's really with the Great Crystal that things start to turn around. And that's just before Ultima.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Can i ask why two whms? Im assuming that you use it as a tank/healer + two beserked melee? But if thats the case why even bother with whm/machinist?

The Machinist/White Mage is mostly Machinist for about 95% of the game. Berserker Bracers and let 'er rip.
The other 5% she's Reverse-tanking superbosses while maintaining both Bravery and Haste on the two berserked damage dealers. Plus heals with spells or Dark Shot + dark absorb gear for the fights that need it (e.g. Zodiark or Behemoth King).

The Shikari/White Mage is a tank for 99% of the game, healing/buffing at the same time so I can leave the other two members to deal damage. Ideally that'd be berserked Machinist and the Black Mage/Red Battlemage, but I'll of course switch to other combos when leveling.
The other 1% he's the standard Yagyu Darkblade + Black Robes damage dealer, mostly for Ultima and Yiazmat (for obvious reasons).

Damage dealers are whoever is strongest right now based on available gear and enemies to face. Machinist dominates most of the game, naturally, given that I rush both Arcturus and Mithuna. Black Mage/Red Battlemage is also a staple given the area damage. Others rotate as needed. On short fights or when I have to stay topped I use hard hitters over combo, i.e. Excalibur + White Robes on the Knight/Bushi and Tournesol on the Knight/Monk. Bushi/Monk is mostly for boss fights (with Kumbha) and doesn't do super well on trash. I can live with that. It's just a very small margin for the heck of it.

Ah i see i guess the whm tank is good enough to not die? Anyway side note but from what i heard if machinist is going to be treated as a dps (instead of providing hp, hastega, steal, and some respectable damage when not supporting to the whm) then whm isnt the best option? Surely you would just give it something that has heavy armour and focus adrenaline? Im just confused if whm tank is so good why you need to waste machinists supposed dps potential like that because we should only need 1 healer theoretically

Anyway so you dont recommend shikari/rdm instead of the shikari/whm?

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Ah i see i guess the whm tank is good enough to not die? Anyway side note but from what i heard if machinist is going to be treated as a dps (instead of providing hp, hastega, steal, and some respectable damage when not supporting to the whm) then whm isnt the best option? Surely you would just give it something that has heavy armour and focus adrenaline?

Heavy armor does nothing for Machinist damage, since guns don't scale with stats in any way. Focus/Adrenaline do increase it, but given how ludicrously overpowered Arcturus/Mithuna are when you get them early, Focus/Adrenaline are usually mostly overkill. If you absolutely wanted to, you could just use a Focus/Adrenaline accessory and apply berserk via Bacchus's Wine but it's just not needed.
The White Mage is mostly there for buffing Bravery and healing - and of course the Green Magicks needed to be able to tank. White Mage is the only job that provides Decoy/Reverse and Bravery at the same time.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Anyway so you dont recommend shikari/rdm instead of the shikari/whm?

There's a few differences. Both are excellent at tanking, but White Mage has Bravery/Faith and Red Battlemage does not. In return, Red Battlemage gets offensive spells and disablers, which can be useful depending on how you play. Personally I use my Black Mage/Red Battlemage for crowd control and area damage if needed, so I don't see a need to also have it on the tank. Bravery/Faith, meanwhile, are considerable damage increases that I value a lot more than the ability to pop a fire spell here and there or chuck another Sleepga on something I will oneshot anyway.
But as I said - both are great tanks.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Ah i see i guess the whm tank is good enough to not die? Anyway side note but from what i heard if machinist is going to be treated as a dps (instead of providing hp, hastega, steal, and some respectable damage when not supporting to the whm) then whm isnt the best option? Surely you would just give it something that has heavy armour and focus adrenaline?

Heavy armor does nothing for Machinist damage, since guns don't scale with stats in any way. Focus/Adrenaline do increase it, but given how ludicrously overpowered Arcturus/Mithuna are when you get them early, Focus/Adrenaline are usually mostly overkill. If you absolutely wanted to, you could just use a Focus/Adrenaline accessory and apply berserk via Bacchus's Wine but it's just not needed.
The White Mage is mostly there for buffing Bravery and healing - and of course the Green Magicks needed to be able to tank. White Mage is the only job that provides Decoy/Reverse and Bravery at the same time.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Anyway so you dont recommend shikari/rdm instead of the shikari/whm?

There's a few differences. Both are excellent at tanking, but White Mage has Bravery/Faith and Red Battlemage does not. In return, Red Battlemage gets offensive spells and disablers, which can be useful depending on how you play. Personally I use my Black Mage/Red Battlemage for crowd control and area damage if needed, so I don't see a need to also have it on the tank. Bravery/Faith, meanwhile, are considerable damage increases that I value a lot more than the ability to pop a fire spell here and there or chuck another Sleepga on something I will oneshot anyway.
But as I said - both are great tanks.

The only apprehension i have is both are supposedly relying on evasion which apparently most endgame enemies ignore. While the shikari provides a lot of hp is it really a good idea to have your healer taking all those hits since theyre gonna be missing the 3rd shield block and in whm case probably the high end shields (which i think rdm does give?). I did read on another thread that those enemies can rip through evasion tanks so if your leader is also your healer...😐. Then again youve used it i havent so you know more about this than i can at this stage. At least with white/time it stays back despite its low hp(like whm/machinist would). If youre vouching for the fact whm/shikari can take those type of hits from multiple enemies then cool. I may just make both and see how i like each one altho probably a redundant space to have two tanks in the party. I much prefer mitigation tanks tbh unless were talking about evade lightning in ff13 where evasion was so op you literally almost never got hit

[Nezkeys]

Also i dont really know what reverse does never used it. I used decoy tho which is essentially provoke

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

The only apprehension i have is both are supposedly relying on evasion which apparently most endgame enemies ignore.

Tanking enemies that ignore evasion is what Reverse is for. Or Wither, if you want to go that route. There's also a few enemies (mostly marks) that ignore evasion but don't hit for a lot so you can just sit there and eat it with a damage dealer (or switch the tank off shield into more damage). There's practically no situation where you'd say "oh I'll be tanking just with the defense reduction from heavy armor". Armor has mostly offensive value in this game. Sounds weird, doesn't it.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

While the shikari provides a lot of hp is it really a good idea to have your healer taking all those hits since theyre gonna be missing the 3rd shield block and in whm case probably the high end shields (which i think rdm does give?).

Shikari has access to all shields that matter, i.e. Demon Shield. While Zodiac Shield/Ensanguined Shield are undeniably more powerful, they're also a royal pain to get and in the case of Zodiac Shield available so late in the game you're pretty much past the point of evasion tanking. The upgrade they provide over Demon Shield isn't big enough, in my opinion, to change jobs for it. Heck they're not big enough for me to even try and GET them. Spend an hour zoning in Nabudis or Sochen? No thanks. Demon Shield is easy to grind by chaining Abysteels, which can be done as soon as you've finished Eruyt Village.

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

I did read on another thread that those enemies can rip through evasion tanks so if your leader is also your healer...😐.

The point of having a tank that also heals/buffs is to increase your offensive power, not your defensive power. I'm sure you could come up with combos that have a lot better defenses - but that comes at the expense of offense. I like to run in, pull big, and obliterate everything asap. That's a form of defense, too, I hear ;)

But yes, it all depends on personal playstyle. I like min/max glass cannon styles where you can leverage playing skill to eke out advantages. If you want things more chill and forgiving, maybe some other combination will do better for you. It's all about finding what's right for how YOU like to play.

EDIT

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Also i dont really know what reverse does never used it. I used decoy tho which is essentially provoke

Well that explains some of the confusion.

Reverse turns damage into healing, and healing into damage. If you put Reverse on your tank, they will be healed by all incoming damage (and damaged by all incoming healing, so watch out). That's how a Machinist/White Mage can sit there and laugh Gilgamesh in the face while wearing mystic armor with 2000hp.
It's not entirely risk-free, of course, since Reverse is very short in duration and is a debuff so it can fail if your stats aren't up to it (you can use Indigo Pendant to make it guaranteed, of course). Also it gets removed by Esuna so careful with gambits.