Progression Guide?

[Sines]

So, are there any guides out there that are just about telling you when various spells and noteworthy pieces of equipment become available (or reasonably available, in the case of things that are available early but protected by powerful enemies)? Ideally with details of, for example, bazaar ingredients that could be farmed up?

The FF wiki is actually pretty informative, but you have to go looking for the info, there's no simple "Make sure you stop here and farm this while you're in this zone" or "Now's a good time to take a side trip to X place if you intend on using Y".. I had been compiling something of a list of skills and spells for myself, but the list of things I'd like to keep for planning each playthrough is pretty big, and it'd be nice if it had been assembled by players with a more thorough memory of it than myself.

[Hinnyuu]

The game is too nonlinear for that to be anything but marginally useful.

What's "reasonably available" for people? Some can tackle Archaeoaevis right away. Others despair at them even late in the game. Some people like to take a stroll in the Necrohol straight out of Raithwall. Others get stuck at King Bomb.

I suppose you could segment things by the larger story benchmarks, i.e. technical availability. REASONABLE availability I think is too subjective to be of any real use.

Personally, I divide the game in three segments: pre-Raitwhall, Raithwall to Archades, and post-Archades (the reason being Raithwall unlocks second jobs and most extra zones, while Archades unlocks trophies). The details as to what's available at each step of the story are too many to sensibly put in a progression curve, I feel.

[Sines]

Well yah, I know the game is open and all those goalposts would be subjective. But I'd be happy with a 'too hard for me' guide, as that would still put certain goals in mind that I could look back to later. There's just so much in the game, and a lot of classes and builds are much weaker if you don't know where to look (I missed Shades of Black on my first time through the game, for example). That's why I went with catalogging skills, simply because it's not as big of a deal to not find Ninja Blades or a Shell Shield right away, as it is to miss certain key spells or abilities (imagine if you somehow managed to miss Haste).

[Hinnyuu]

I think the easiest way to do this would just be to identify what your job combo needs, and then look up where you can find it.

As you said, it's highly subjective - any guide would need to accommodate for that, so why not start with the objective parts (i.e. technical availability) and let people craft their own around that. Writing a dedicated guide based on one subjective notion of what is difficult to get and what isn't would just be counterproductive, I feel.

In the end, it's not actually as complicated as it seems if you go into it with a party setup already in mind. It's only complicated if you want a blanket solution to all possible setups, because then you have to account for so many possibilities. No reason to make it complicated, just craft your plan around what you're actually using.

[Sines]

Oh that's certainly what I've been doing. Going into the Garuda fight with a Foebreaker, I started wondering when I first get Hand Bombs, so I looked them up. And I'm going to be looking up when I can get some Ninja Blades. I also need to look up gun crafting (I don't see myself cheesing down Archeoavis). Bazaar crafting is kind of the most tedious part, because I look up the list of craftable guns, then I look up the bazaar items, then I look up where each of them come from. That get's a little tedious.

It's all stuff I can, and am willing to do. I was just hoping there was a more concise source I could research from. The FF wiki is surprisingly complete, but the information is scattered and sometimes troubling to piece together.

[Arkhne]

Basically, the biggest would be something like thoroughly looting northern Eastersand, Mosphoran Highwaste, and Salikawood ASAP (right after Raithwall). Dragon Shield, Platinum Helm+Armour (and comprobable level Mystic/Light) are a significant step up at that point, and is easy enough that virtually anybody can manage that, which makes other "Optional" stuff easier. Kiku-ichimonji is also available from Mosphoran Highwaste at this time, so if you have a Bushi, that's a significant step up. Looting Barheim without the gear from these places is basically suicide (although a Kagenui is very nice this early).

Beyond that, it's pretty free-flowing, and depends on own sanity levels and party make-up. For the particularly patient, Cerobi Steppe is available right after Stilshrine (Take a Chocobo through Tchita Uplands), with a Diamond Armlet (found in Trial Mode 1), you can access truly powerful equipment and completely break any difficulty that the game might have, should you be able to stand the absurdly low chances (I think it works out at about 1% per chest per area).

EDIT: There used to be an old guide for the original for this kicking around, but that isn't relevant to this version.

[Sines]

Thanks a bundle. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Stuff that is reasonably attainable early. I know I could get Adremelk and the ultimate gun very early on, but it's not practical. This sounds like it is. And it's not something like "When can I first get a Ninja Blade and Hand Bomb" where I know what to look up. "Where can I get some high quality gear early without too much difficulty" is something that would require a LOT of looking things up.

Somewhat similarly, I'm trying to figure out what are some good guns I could craft early. Right now, I have to look up all the guns. Then look up their bazaar list, then look up what drops those items, then look up what zones they spawn in. And then move onto the next gun and repeat it to see when that's available. That's a lot of effort for something a veteran player might sum up quickly from his many playthroughs as "Go here for this, there for that, and there's your gun."

[Arkhne]

I've been avoiding posting this link as the webpage doesn't look the fanciest, but I've never had a problem with it, but it can certainly help with this if you "adjust" your thinking.

http://vgmaps.com/Atlas/PS2/index.htm#FinalFantasyXIIInternationalZodiacJobSystem

Basically, go into it thinking "What areas (that I can access) can I survive well enough to loot?", then check the chests in that area. This is very good for the Eastersand/Mosphoran/Salikawood point that I suggested, as well as the Cerobi Steppe (but probably skip this one, it's possible, but not good for your sanity).

As for the crafting, again, the original had a GREAT guide for that (including all the sources and when they became available, listed in the recipe itself). Generally speaking, I stick to chests until at least Stilshrine, which is when basically everything of importance becomes available. Yes, Nabudis/Barheim are immediately available after Raithwall, but it requires some significant powering up at that point, better to leave it until after Site 11 Lushu mines (Antlion Hunt + Phon Coast required, you'll be fighting Abysteels and Dark Lords though, so definitely want good equipment). Leaving crafting until Pharos and Hunt Club becomes available is even better, as these often provide "easier" sources of loot.

The staging process of powering up is something that I always loved about FF12, planning ahead which items to get, to make other items easier, then refining the process and filtering out some of the superfluous stuff (IE: In the original, stealing Deathbringer right after Raithwall is easy, but in this version adds Karkata, stolen in Trial THREE, so even easier, and even more powerful, skip Deathbringer, get Karkata). Usually this means stepping up your armour incrementally, as weapons are generally easy to skip to an 80+ amount and ignoring upgrades to those until late game (crafting).

I'll have a quick look for your Gun/Ninja Blade/Bomb requests later, but I have to handle some stuff irl first. Grabbing Kagenui from Barheim is probably the best for that (Sakura is available in Stillshrine, which is easier, depending on progress).

[Sines]

Thanks for all this. I love the game, but I don't know it as well as I know, for example, Dark Souls 2. In DS2, I could plan out what gear I wanted for a build, and plot my progress through the game. Go to certain zones in certain orders, and know where I wanted to throw some Bonfire Ascetics (which basically create a localized New Game Plus with it's associated better loot). I can see a lot of fun in planning out those routes (Going to difficult areas earlier as equivalent to using an Ascetic), but I have a very poor memory, which can make things like this more complicated. I'm a good researcher, but I have a hard time remembering which zones of Barheim or Lhusu Mines are locked away. Or remembering when certain hunts or zones become available.

I can, of course, research all these things too, but the extra steps make the process more tedious. When planning a Dark Souls build, I may have to research where I can find a piece of my build, but I know the games well enough that I know how to get there, and how challenging it is. For example, I know that Zertinan Cavern is "Too tough for the early game, but you can dash in, grab some chests, and dash out", but I really couldn't tell you at what relative power level I could reasonably farm the enemies, or at what levels I could beat Adremmelk or the Archeoavis (barring cheesing them).

I think for now, I'll stay mostly on the story path (veering off for the occassional hunt) until Miriam. If I recall correctly, that's where you get Hashmal, who is rather notable in that he has some rather important unlocks (I'm not using Monk or Knight this playthrough, though Swiftness 2 for Foebreaker is still pretty good).

Lastly, I'm somewhat averse to cheesing (generally speaking). Farming Trial Mode is absolutely off-limits for me (partially because of Karkata, but also because I try to pretend the Zodiac Age additions don't exist, and play it like IZJS). I'm also opposed to cheesing the Archeoavis, I want to be able to beat them relatively fair and square (although I wouldn't be opposed to cheesing them once I've proved I can beat them, if it's faster, I'm in this for the challenge, not the tedium :D). What constitutes cheesing is of course subjective. I'd have no problem fighting a monster that can only use single target Fire attacks with Belial enchanted with Decoy. Nor do I have a problem with casting reflect on my party to amplify my Black Magics single target damage. Basically, there's a difference between a clever strategy, and Vanish/Doom.

[Melodia]

Hashmal is at the top of the Pharos, you don't get him until right before the end of the game. You get Mateus from Miriam.

[Sines]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Hashmal is at the top of the Pharos, you don't get him until right before the end of the game. You get Mateus from Miriam.

Oh right. I get those two mixed up. Both provide the Knight White Magic.

[Sines]

Going over the wiki to look for stuff, and there is one other thing driving me nuts about research. The amount of times something is available via Diamond Armlet (itself tricky to get) but not mentioned until I bring up a treasure list (although I know this applies to all Cerobi drops), or where it's available but as a 5% drop/steal/poach (in which case I have to be able to farm the enemy, not 'barely beat it' for it to be worth it). Neither of these are presented up front, so it takes time to get to it. Not to mention the wiki doesn't always adequately differentiate between Zodiac and Original right away (the information is always there, but it's not immediately apparent all that often). This makes research to be kind of a pain in the butt.

I will say, the ways you find gear in this game is kinda tedious sometimes. You gotta equip the diamond armlet (which seems to remove a lot of good drops from a lot of chests in order to add some VERY rare good drops to a small number of chests), poach or steal at tiny rates, or pray to the RNG for the right treasure chest. I know the idea is that you get to enjoy being lucky and getting some gear early sometimes. But I feel there could have been a lot more good high percentage drops (where you're rewarded for killing tough enemies early), and a lot fewer things dependant on stealing/poaching multiple 5-10% drops. Seems like it veers off from the "Some playthroughs you get lucky!" feel, and goes into the "You need to farm this, and you also need to know exactly what to do ahead of time" territory.

[Melodia]

Essentially outside of Cerobi the only real need for Diamond Armlet is for the three invisible weapons (Seitengrat, Trango Tower and Gendarme). I can't think of any other chests at all that have something in the DA slot besides Meteorites.

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Essentially outside of Cerobi the only real need for Diamond Armlet is for the three equips weapons (Seitengrat, Trango Tower and Gendarme). I can't think of any other chests at all that have something in the DA slot besides Meteorites.

Correct.

For most (sane) people you can effectively just ignore Diamond Armlet in this version. It's only ever relevant if you want to play the 0.01% lottery and if you're into that you're beyond help anyway :P

Although I guess farming the disease Meteorite can be a useful tool for King Bomb specifically (though it's by no means required).

[Sines]

Yah, I've mostly realized that. I posted that having misread some treasure entries.