Ivalice Timeline

[164Gamin]

The Ivalice timeline of games may be one of the most confusing continuties I've ever tried to sort through in gaming. So I'm going to try to explain it to the best of my ability. Note that I am not completely informed on all things Final Fantasy. If I have anything wrong, please tell me and I will fix it. I also will only be covering the games themselves I and will not be covering background information.
*If anything is in asterisks, this means that this is not canon or confirmed and this is simply a theory from myself. I will not be using this often and will only be used to try to fill gaps. If the gap can be filled without them, please let me know and I will fix it.*

The first game in the timeline (and the one that's the hardest to explain) seems to be the main story of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. In this game, the protagonist Marche and his friends Ritz and Mewt are sent back in time to the kingdom of Ivalice via a book known as the Gran Grimoire. The biggest counter to this is the fact that the Ivalice in this game is presented as being a dream from Mewt's imagination. However, this seems to be all but officially retconned at this point (this was the second game set in Ivalice after all). To start with a simple argument, Montblanc has Marche's pendent (that was used in his official artwork) with him in Tactics Advance 2. Something bigger, however, is the existence of Judges. Judges appear in every Ivalice game except for Tactics. The Gran Grimoire seems to only be able to manipulate time and the reality of anyone who uses it. Judges would not be able to exist in this version of Ivalice if the Grimoire just created a dream world from the imagination of a child that had never been there. *Another unconfirmed bit of evidence is Ritz herself. Ritz has silver hair (which is a vieran blessing) and only uses viera jobs. This has led me to believe that she could have some vieran blood in her, since she does come from thousands of years in the furture. However, this is unconfirmed and just a theory of mine.* An argument I've seen against this Ivalice being real is that Ivalice is a kingdom in this game as opposed to a continent. However, since there is time between Tactics Advance and XII, the kingdom easily could have fallen and split apart, with Ivalice still being the established name of the continent. At some point, Marche and Ritz return to Ivalice without Mewt using the Gran Grimoire, as seen in the post-game content. Here it is also revealed that Cid in Ivalice is not actually Mewt's father from the future, as he stays in Ivalice after endgame. The same goes for Reveli. *This has led me to believe that Mewt is descended from the Ivalice royalty and/or Cid because they immediately accept him as a prince and Mewt is the only charater with a magic stat at the beginnning of Tactics Advance.*

I can't seem to find a timespan between Tactics Advance and Final Fantasy XII. However, I would say no more than seven years. This is because of a character I will be referring to a lot in this thread: Montblanc. Montblanc appears as one of the main characters (other than Marche) of Tactics Advance, in which he was portrayed as a young, inexperienced Black Mage. By the time XII comes around, he seems to have matured quite a bit, but still looks roughly the same age, maybe a couple of years older physically. This brings me to believe that no more than seven years could have passed. After this, Final Fantasy XII happens. During this time, the main party meets up with Montblanc and can join his clan. If they do so and defeat the ultimate boss of the game, Montblanc shares his backstory. He and his siblings were raised by "his master" (no name is ever given). However, he was killed by the ultimate boss, which leads Montblanc to establish his clan to get revenge. If you can't tell, this is seemingly contradictory to a lot of Tactics Advance. Therefore, it's time to present a theory.

*Montblanc never says he wasn't in Clan Nutty from Tactics Advance. Therefore, I think that he was raised by his master and he then left home since he seems to be the oldest of his siblings. After Tactics Advance, he returns home for one reason or another, discovers his master has been murdered, and establishes the clan from XII after that.* The founding members of Clan Nutty also joined this clan, as evidenced by their Japanese names being the same in Tactics Advance, XII, and Tactics Advance 2.

A year or so after XII is when Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings takes place. Not much to say here.

Another year passes, and the main story of Final Fantasy Tactics A2 happens. In this game, Luso Clemens is transported back in time by the Grimoire of the Rift. I'll talk more about the events leading up to this and the Grimoire at the end of the discussion.

An unspecified amount of time happens and a catastrophe wipes out every race in Ivalice except for humes. Humes then began to be referred to as humans.

Then Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions happens. Outside of the main plot, three important characters show up (SPOILERS FOR FINAL FANTASY VII AHEAD. SKIP TO AFTER THE NEXT PARAGRAPH TO AVOID IT.):

1) Cloud is transported to Ivalice after entering the Lifestream to battle with Sephiroth. He is transported back by Aerith after the end of the game.
2) Luso Clemens uses the Grimoire of the Rift to travel back in time again. It is assumed he returns in the same manner as the first time.
3) Balthier from Final Fantasy XII is flung into the future after finding the Cache of Glabados. This probably took place in the year he was missing after going to the Cache from XII to Revenant Wings. It is assumed he returns by going back to the Cache after the end of the game.

UPDATE: The "Return to Ivalice" raid from Final Fantasy XIV happens a few hundred/thousand years after TA, after the continent has lost the name Ivalice and has fallen into legend. I'm not touching the plot because I don't know much about it.

Hundreds of thousands of years pass. Ivalice has become a modern civilization. The beginning and ending of Tactics Advance happen in this time.

Ten to fifteen years later, Mewt has become a school librarian. He kept the Gran Grimoire/Grimoire of the Rift, which Luso finds in the library and uses to go back in time. Mewt then gives the Grimoire to Luso at the end of the game, leading into Luso traveling to the War of the Lions.

One of the discussions I've seen about St. Ivalice (Marche, Ritz, Mewt, and probably Luso's town) is that no one can decide if it's the future of Ivalice or a representation of the real world. However, there are some key points that suggest that it is the future of the continent of Ivalice. *As I have already mentioned, Ritz may or may not have vieran blood.* The biggest indicator is something that most people may not even notice: Mewt's magic stat. If this was the real world, a normal kid should not have the ability to use magic. Even Marche and Ritz, who also go to the Ivalice of the past, don't have any magic stat during the prologue of the game. Along this same thought process, the Grimoire should not exist in the real world since it is a magic item that can transport people through time. The only argument I can find against it being the future is the fact that Final Fantasy itself is a game series in St. Ivalice. However, this can easily be attributed to the fact that St. Ivalice is based on the modern day world (at least the modern day world of the early 2000s). Therefore, there could be a game series called Final Fantasy, possibly based on the War of the Lions that was so important to the history of Ivalice (essentially being Final Fantasy Tactics itself).


So how is it? Am I dead wrong or does it check out in most places?

[Lunaticked]

Final Fantasy XIV's evil empire is descended from the citzens of Goug and the latest raids take place in Rabanastre, the remnants of Goug and have you investigating the truth of the story of Delita and Ramza. The Lucavi are also involved.

So, looks like your timeline needs some work.

[feliscon]

Also missing Vagrant Story...

[JanakinBoBanakin]

Originally posted by Lunaticked:

Final Fantasy XIV's evil empire is descended from the citzens of Goug and the latest raids take place in Rabanastre, the remnants of Goug and have you investigating the truth of the story of Delita and Ramza. The Lucavi are also involved.

So, looks like your timeline needs some work.

I would take any lore from FFXIV that ties into other games with an extremely large grain of salt, especially anything from the 24-man raids.

[Lunaticked]

Originally posted by Lilligrump:

Originally posted by Lunaticked:

Final Fantasy XIV's evil empire is descended from the citzens of Goug and the latest raids take place in Rabanastre, the remnants of Goug and have you investigating the truth of the story of Delita and Ramza. The Lucavi are also involved.

So, looks like your timeline needs some work.

I would take any lore from FFXIV that ties into other games with an extremely large grain of salt, especially anything from the 24-man raids.

From how you phrased that, I am going to make the assumption that you have not played the Stormblood raids. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Not being combatitive with your statement, it just seems not something someone who has experienced that story content would say.

This is the first time any of the 24 man raid content has made a direct inference to another game, other than having a boss monster be a callback in looks, but not lore. Every other boss that was from a previous game had its own in-universe reason for being there not related to their origin games. Cloud of Darkness, The Warring Triad. Ultros/Chupon. They just shared looks/movesets. They were not the characters from their original games.

Sigmascape/Omegascape (the 8 mans) are "fiction brought to life" and have no bearing on the lore.

But the Ivalice raids are unambiguously canonical history of the the FFXIV world. The entire plot of them involves investigating history of the FF Tactics time period, and events that came later in the same timeline.

[164Gamin]

Originally posted by feliscon:

Also missing Vagrant Story...

I'll look into Vagrant Story and insert it where it needs to be in the timeline.

UPDATE: So... unless I'm convinced otherwise, I'm not going to include Vagrant Story. This is due to the fact that Yasumi Matsuno claimed in 2004 that Vagrant Story was set in Ivalice. However, he later said in 2010 that Vagrant Story is completely independent of Ivalice (on top of the fact that the original game didn't have any connections anyway.) Unfortunately, I could only find one source for the 2010 statement (Fandom... so it's not that credible) and it did not give a direct quote. So if I'm convinced otherwise, I will be more than happy to include it.

[164Gamin]

Originally posted by Lunaticked:

Originally posted by Lilligrump:

I would take any lore from FFXIV that ties into other games with an extremely large grain of salt, especially anything from the 24-man raids.

From how you phrased that, I am going to make the assumption that you have not played the Stormblood raids. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Not being combatitive with your statement, it just seems not something someone who has experienced that story content would say.

This is the first time any of the 24 man raid content has made a direct inference to another game, other than having a boss monster be a callback in looks, but not lore. Every other boss that was from a previous game had its own in-universe reason for being there not related to their origin games. Cloud of Darkness, The Warring Triad. Ultros/Chupon. They just shared looks/movesets. They were not the characters from their original games.

Sigmascape/Omegascape (the 8 mans) are "fiction brought to life" and have no bearing on the lore.

But the Ivalice raids are unambiguously canonical history of the the FFXIV world. The entire plot of them involves investigating history of the FF Tactics time period, and events that came later in the same timeline.

I'll be honest, I don't know much about FFXIV. But if everything else is non-canon, why would only one of the raids be canon? Please correct me if I'm wrong since I haven't played any of it and I'll be more than happy to adjust my timeline if need be.

[Lunaticked]

Originally posted by 164Gamin:

Originally posted by Lunaticked:

From how you phrased that, I am going to make the assumption that you have not played the Stormblood raids. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Not being combatitive with your statement, it just seems not something someone who has experienced that story content would say.

This is the first time any of the 24 man raid content has made a direct inference to another game, other than having a boss monster be a callback in looks, but not lore. Every other boss that was from a previous game had its own in-universe reason for being there not related to their origin games. Cloud of Darkness, The Warring Triad. Ultros/Chupon. They just shared looks/movesets. They were not the characters from their original games.

Sigmascape/Omegascape (the 8 mans) are "fiction brought to life" and have no bearing on the lore.

But the Ivalice raids are unambiguously canonical history of the the FFXIV world. The entire plot of them involves investigating history of the FF Tactics time period, and events that came later in the same timeline.

I'll be honest, I don't know much about FFXIV. But if everything else is non-canon, why would only one of the raids be canon? Please correct me if I'm wrong since I haven't played any of it and I'll be more than happy to adjust my timeline if need be.

Thanks for the open minded reply. I'll do my best to explain the difference.

The other references were just that, references. Here's this ancient evil, and it looks like Cloud of Darkness, but has nothing to do with OG Cloud of Darkness, but is a nice fan-wank to see Cloud of Darkness in 3D, with all the pretty special effects and updated for the modern era, but it is not canonically your daddy's Cloud of Darkness, just a tribute.

The Ivalice raids have an entire storyline focusing on the hunt for the true history of Ivalice, and is driven by a family directly tied to the events of The War of the Lions, and as the storyline goes on they uncover more information about Delita, the Lucavi, Ramza, Alma, etc. By the second raid they pretty much start to theorize that the main "big bad empire" in FFXIV may be descendants of people who fled Goug in ages past due to shared biological traits (like incapable of using magic).

It's all about the context. The other times it was a throwaway, or using a cool design. With the Ivalice raids, it's deliberately integrated into the story, history, and world of FFXIV. With all the actual plot, story and history links the raids established with their plot, to throw FFXIV entirely outside the timeline would be at the same level as tossing out XII, A/A2 or Vagrant Story. The arguments in favor and against their inclusion can be used with XIV on the same level.

[RAWRmonger]

I smell Vagrant Story in FF12 a lot though, which is why I like it.

Some bits of the music, the artstyle (characters' skin), the palettes, the architectural beauty of the streets and undergrounds, the ranges and traps, although less meticulous as VS...

Saw this yesterday, the old man in Old Archades sitting with the kids (Fermon, I think) says something along the lines "...show respect for faeries tales", which is a Sydney's line from the intro. Someone clearly wanted to reference VS, I get references are just that, but Ivalice appears to be huge and VS, because of the magic and dark arts being taboo, appears to be set in the past, or some distant future, so there shouldn't be any harm.

[Daedalus007]

As far as FF12 is concerned, the raids in FF14 are an 'alternate timeline' Ivalice where some parts of FF12 may have happened differently or not happened at all.

I take great enjoyment in the lore of the world, especially the detailed localization work done to enhance the experience beyond a typical lazy translation. It reads a bit like high school drama class stuff but it works really well for the world and lore they were going towards.

[164Gamin]

Originally posted by Lunaticked:

Originally posted by 164Gamin:

I'll be honest, I don't know much about FFXIV. But if everything else is non-canon, why would only one of the raids be canon? Please correct me if I'm wrong since I haven't played any of it and I'll be more than happy to adjust my timeline if need be.

Thanks for the open minded reply. I'll do my best to explain the difference.

The other references were just that, references. Here's this ancient evil, and it looks like Cloud of Darkness, but has nothing to do with OG Cloud of Darkness, but is a nice fan-wank to see Cloud of Darkness in 3D, with all the pretty special effects and updated for the modern era, but it is not canonically your daddy's Cloud of Darkness, just a tribute.

The Ivalice raids have an entire storyline focusing on the hunt for the true history of Ivalice, and is driven by a family directly tied to the events of The War of the Lions, and as the storyline goes on they uncover more information about Delita, the Lucavi, Ramza, Alma, etc. By the second raid they pretty much start to theorize that the main "big bad empire" in FFXIV may be descendants of people who fled Goug in ages past due to shared biological traits (like incapable of using magic).

It's all about the context. The other times it was a throwaway, or using a cool design. With the Ivalice raids, it's deliberately integrated into the story, history, and world of FFXIV. With all the actual plot, story and history links the raids established with their plot, to throw FFXIV entirely outside the timeline would be at the same level as tossing out XII, A/A2 or Vagrant Story. The arguments in favor and against their inclusion can be used with XIV on the same level.

Thank you for the clarification. I'll be sure to look into it and fit it where it should be. Unfortunately, I don't have access to my PC at the moment and am typing this from a terrible mobile browser. However, I will update it as soon as possible.

[164Gamin]

Originally posted by Daedalus007:

As far as FF12 is concerned, the raids in FF14 are an 'alternate timeline' Ivalice where some parts of FF12 may have happened differently or not happened at all.

I take great enjoyment in the lore of the world, especially the detailed localization work done to enhance the experience beyond a typical lazy translation. It reads a bit like high school drama class stuff but it works really well for the world and lore they were going towards.

If you don't mind, could you explain this alternate timeline a bit more? I just want to know what I'm getting into before I try to find out where/how place the FFXIV raids.

[Deckire]

Some Bits to say, Tactics Advance does nto take place Before Final Fantasy 12.

It is Highly Noted that, that Ivalice in TA was created by Mewt. The Gran Grimoire has the ability not to create a rift in Time like the Grimoire of Rifts, but actually Manipulate the world around it by the holder (as stated in A2). That said, Mewt desires Created a Pseudo World using the history that the Book has Accumilated as well as FInal Fantasy 12

You can think of it like Final Fantasy 10, The Zanarkand that Tidus and Jecht is from is actually a Fake world from Memories created by the Fayth, where people like Yunalesca and Tidus' real counterpart Shuyin are from. So the Montblanc of Clan Nutty is not the same Montblanc of Clan Centurion.

[164Gamin]

Originally posted by heroguanlet:

Some Bits to say, Tactics Advance does nto take place Before Final Fantasy 12.

It is Highly Noted that, that Ivalice in TA was created by Mewt. The Gran Grimoire has the ability not to create a rift in Time like the Grimoire of Rifts, but actually Manipulate the world around it by the holder (as stated in A2). That said, Mewt desires Created a Pseudo World using the history that the Book has Accumilated as well as FInal Fantasy 12

You can think of it like Final Fantasy 10, The Zanarkand that Tidus and Jecht is from is actually a Fake world from Memories created by the Fayth, where people like Yunalesca and Tidus' real counterpart Shuyin are from. So the Montblanc of Clan Nutty is not the same Montblanc of Clan Centurion.

I already noted why I believe that this fact has been retconned and was just due to it being the second game in the series. There are too many contradictions at this point to say that Ivalice in TA is an illusion. And if the Gran Grimoire did send them back in time and Mewt still has it, it stands to reason that the Gran Grinoire and the Grimoire of the Rift are one and the same. If you want more details, re-read my TA paragraphs in the main part of this discussion.

As for TA, being before FF12, I have also noted Montblanc being in Clan Nutty and then moving to Clan Centurion for all other entires in the timeline.

[Arkhne]

Originally posted by 164Gamin:

Originally posted by heroguanlet:

Some Bits to say, Tactics Advance does nto take place Before Final Fantasy 12.

It is Highly Noted that, that Ivalice in TA was created by Mewt. The Gran Grimoire has the ability not to create a rift in Time like the Grimoire of Rifts, but actually Manipulate the world around it by the holder (as stated in A2). That said, Mewt desires Created a Pseudo World using the history that the Book has Accumilated as well as FInal Fantasy 12

You can think of it like Final Fantasy 10, The Zanarkand that Tidus and Jecht is from is actually a Fake world from Memories created by the Fayth, where people like Yunalesca and Tidus' real counterpart Shuyin are from. So the Montblanc of Clan Nutty is not the same Montblanc of Clan Centurion.

I already noted why I believe that this fact has been retconned and was just due to it being the second game in the series. There are too many contradictions at this point to say that Ivalice in TA is an illusion. And if the Gran Grimoire did send them back in time and Mewt still has it, it stands to reason that the Gran Grinoire and the Grimoire of the Rift are one and the same. If you want more details, re-read my TA paragraphs in the main part of this discussion.

As for TA, being before FF12, I have also noted Montblanc being in Clan Nutty and then moving to Clan Centurion for all other entires in the timeline.

Few things. First, it's Nutsy (at least in the English version), note the S. Second, Montblanc was just a member of it (doesn't even suggest that he's a cofounder or anything, basically just that they're a bunch of guys what hang out with each other. So it stands to reason that any Clan that he was a Founder or Leader for would come after this (As you suggested, it's quite possible that Centurian grew out of Nutsy after Marche left). Third, Moogle Aging, you're basing a lot of the timeline on your PERCEIVED "lack of aging" of a race that doesn't seem to show any kind of aging. They all look the same age, regardless.

[Daedalus007]

Originally posted by 164Gamin:

If you don't mind, could you explain this alternate timeline a bit more? I just want to know what I'm getting into before I try to find out where/how place the FFXIV raids.

This video should explain things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-JjYi60jko