Optimal 12 class party

[Nezkeys]

Curious what you all think is the most optimal 12 class party is. I see so many great class combos but they generally rely on repeating classes which sucks if you want to do this type of run. So yeah let me know what you think the most optimal 12 class pairings are. I think diversity looks like the key so pairing "opposites" to cover each others weaknesses for the best synergy. I'm new to the game and out of these recommended teams probably going to go team 1 or team 2 but let me know what your optimal 12 class would be lol. It could be something completely different to these

TEAM 1:
Shikari/Red Mage (love this concept of evasion tank with all the stuff rdm brings)
Knight/Bushi (one of the highest melee dps i think)
White Mage/Time Mage (ultimate support)
Black Mage/Monk (the diversity of this combo seems excellent. tanky mage that can melee to save mp lol)
Machinist/Uhlan
Archer/Foebreaker

TEAM 2:
Shikari/Foebreaker (meh popular but i found it boring)
Monk/Bushi (again one of the highest melee dps)
Knight/Time Mage
Black Mage/Red Mage (ultimate nuker)
White Mage/Machinist (best dps whm lol)
Archer/Uhlan

TEAM 3:
White Mage/Shikari (nice concept with main healer as an evasion tank)
Black Mage/Knight (diversity here seems really good)
Archer/Red Mage
Bushi/Foebreaker
Uhlan/Time
Monk/Machinist

[Hinnyuu]

What do you mean by "optimal"? There's a number of parameters you could go by. Power isn't exactly linear in this game, so there's a lot of peaks and troughs on the timeline for various combinations. Where you put the emphasis can change setups fundamentally.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

What do you mean by "optimal"? There's a number of parameters you could go by. Power isn't exactly linear in this game, so there's a lot of peaks and troughs on the timeline for various combinations. Where you put the emphasis can change setups fundamentally.

a party that is able to overcome most sutuations without the need for saying "oh i wish i had my main 3" or something. or maybe the most fun/least boring (but then again i know what is fun to one person isnt for everyone else). the most balanced i guess? so you dont end up with 3 amazing combos and 3 bad ones for example. Like I said its clearly not possible to get the most optimal party with these rules but im just curious what others feel are those combos

[RabidChoco]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

a party that is able to overcome most sutuations without the need for saying "oh i wish i had my main 3" or something. or maybe the most fun/least boring (but then again i know what is fun to one person isnt for everyone else). the most balanced i guess?

By that interpretation, it seems you want to maximize versatility. Now I don't have a good list, myself, but I'd definitely say you wouldn't want to put two mage classes on the same character.

I'm just coming off a 12-class run, and did pretty well...
Vaan: Monk/Black Mage
Penelo: White Mage/Machinist
Balthier: Shikari/Archer
Fran: Foebreaker/Time Mage
Basch: Knight/Uhlan (a little redundant, I know, not sure what I was thinking)
Ashe: Red Mage/Bushi

[Hinnyuu]

I'd really like some parameters that aren't just a jumble of subjective guess-work. "Good", "bad", or "optimal" are just so incredibly unhelpful because they mean different things to different people.

I'm sure I could come up with twelve dozen different setups that are all good IN SOME WAY but without something objectively tangible personal preference is just going to preclude any sort of "this is the optimal thing"-statement from the get-go.

One parameter at least is already given, i.e. using all 12 jobs - which by itself may already be "non-optimal" in many respects but is at least a concrete, objective criterion to adhere to.

[Garrim]

Ok, I've tried to make a lore-.friendly setup where all 12 classes are used and there are two distinct and (almost) equal teams. I'm not saying I've succeeded but I really enjoy playing them and for me that's what is important. Hopefully my setup will give you some inspiration.
Also note - my setup is in no way original or unique. :)

Team 1:
Vaan: Shikari - Bushi
Balthier: Machinist - Foebreaker
Fran: Archer - Red Battlemage

Team 2:
Bash: Knight - Time Battlemage
Ashe: Black Mage - Monk
Penelo: White Mage - Uhlan

[Eltia]

Optimal as in you can get all three Swift Action and Channeling per character:

Knight / Time Mage (Vaan)

Bushi / Uhlan (Basch)

Shikari / Foebreaker (Balthier)

White Mage / Machinist (Penelo)

Red Mage / Archer (Ashe)

Black Mage / Monk (Fran)

[Nezkeys]

My primary 6 classes already done

Shikari - (Foebreaker or Red Mage)
White Mage - Time
Black Mage - (Monk or Red Mage)
Knight - Bushi
Archer - (Red Mage or Foebreaker or Monk)
Machinist - Uhlan

Still undecided on which combos to do out of these though. a) and b) look the best ....

a) Shikari/Red Mage, Black Mage/Monk, Archer/Foebreaker
b) Shikari/Foebreaker, Black Mage/Monk, Archer/Red Mage
c) Shikari/Foebreaker, Black Mage/Red Mage, Archer/Monk
d) Shikari/Red Mage, Black Mage/Foebreaker, Archer/Monk
e) Shikari/Red Mage, White/Foebreaker, Archer/Time

[Sakhari]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

a) Shikari/Red Mage, Black Mage/Monk, Archer/Foebreaker
b) Shikari/Foebreaker, Black Mage/Monk, Archer/Red Mage
c) Shikari/Foebreaker, Black Mage/Red Mage, Archer/Monk
d) Shikari/Red Mage, Black Mage/Foebreaker, Archer/Monk
e) Shikari/Red Mage, White/Foebreaker, Archer/Time

Given those choices, I'd go with A or E personally.

I know you've probably seen a bit of conflicting information on this but really, the only reason Shikari/Foebreaker keeps popping up as a recommended combo is because early theorycrafters during the PS4 launch thought that the combo-boosting Genji Gloves (which Foebreaker has access to) would be amazing with Ninja Blades. It turns out that the Germinas Boots are actually better for ninja-blade damage and every class has access to those.

In reality, all you're really getting out of this deal is a strength bonus for blades (via heavy armor) or an earlier speed bonus for the breaker if you really want to use hammers/axes. The combo is also dull as rocks to play since it has almost nothing to do beyond autoattacking until very late in the game when you finally get the best daggers/blades and Wither. It's not a 'bad' combo but it is wildly overrated.

Overall, I think Shikari/Red is a much better option. It's a great tank (which has access to the best shields) with a lot of utility via magic and eventually gets the Black Robes to pair with the Yagyu Darkblade for excellent damage against Yiazmat and respectable damage against other enemies that aren't Dark absorbent/immune. You also have the option of picking up some heavy armor mid-game via the Exodus esper for added strength.

[Nezkeys]

Originally posted by Sakhari:

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

a) Shikari/Red Mage, Black Mage/Monk, Archer/Foebreaker
b) Shikari/Foebreaker, Black Mage/Monk, Archer/Red Mage
c) Shikari/Foebreaker, Black Mage/Red Mage, Archer/Monk
d) Shikari/Red Mage, Black Mage/Foebreaker, Archer/Monk
e) Shikari/Red Mage, White/Foebreaker, Archer/Time

Given those choices, I'd go with A or E personally.

I know you've probably seen a bit of conflicting information on this but really, the only reason Shikari/Foebreaker keeps popping up as a recommended combo is because early theorycrafters during the PS4 launch thought that the combo-boosting Genji Gloves (which Foebreaker has access to) would be amazing with Ninja Blades. It turns out that the Germinas Boots are actually better for ninja-blade damage and every class has access to those.

In reality, all you're really getting out of this deal is a strength bonus for blades (via heavy armor) or an earlier speed bonus for the breaker if you really want to use hammers/axes. The combo is also dull as rocks to play since it has almost nothing to do beyond autoattacking until very late in the game when you finally get the best daggers/blades and Wither. It's not a 'bad' combo but it is wildly overrated.

Overall, I think Shikari/Red is a much better option. It's a great tank (which has access to the best shields) with a lot of utility via magic and eventually gets the Black Robes to pair with the Yagyu Darkblade for excellent damage against Yiazmat and respectable damage against other enemies that aren't Dark absorbent/immune. You also have the option of picking up some heavy armor mid-game via the Exodus esper for added strength.

yeah i sorta made assumptions as well based on how shikari is playing so far...its a melee dps class tbh atm but doesnt have that many lores...i figured if i give it foebreaker it will do more damage plus the breaks (which granted seems like very situational moves on like what 5 bosses maximum? and i heard getting access to them is late anyway). The reason i like the sound of shikari/red and white/foebreaker is because in both examples you are doing more than just one thing which you would be with white/time and shikari/foe, so agreed possibly dull combos as white/foe kinda sounds like its more survivable and can deal respectable melee damage against trash when it doesnt need to heal, instead of rods or whatever it gets. i still like the sound of my white mage handling debuffs and buffs too outside of heals, but i guess that is what the red mage will be doing on shikari? I agree though shikari is so boring to play right now. black mage seems to be doing the most damage tbh...like a lot more than my knight and shikari, and my machinist and archer are way lower than those two lol. Im guessing bushi, monk, uhlan, and foebreaker are actually higher dps than shikari and knight at this stage?

[Nezkeys]

the other thing with foebreaker going to archer...isnt that just a wasted genji glove? hence why im still torn with staying with shik/foe :( if i put foebreaker on whm thats a wasted genji glove too. archer is like literally the only choice after the combos i picked where genji glove is concerned if its not going on shikari i think? tbh next playthrough im going to make a monk/foebreaker and main the monk as a melee dps, and will probably also do monk/bushi as well lol

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Nezkeys:

black mage seems to be doing the most damage tbh...like a lot more than my knight and shikari, and my machinist and archer are way lower than those two lol. Im guessing bushi, monk, uhlan, and foebreaker are actually higher dps than shikari and knight at this stage?

Damage is very non-linear in this game because it primarily depends on equipment upgrades - which aren't continuous gains like levels, but sudden, discrete jumps. You jump higher the more of an upgrade it is, and given gear availability that is VERY asymmetric across jobs.

If you're maximizing your gains, then Machinist will dominate large portions of the game - basically anything from Tomb of Raithwall to Great Crystal II, when Excalibur/White Robes becomes available. Even after that, you are among the top trash damage dealers with the right ammo, and only lose out on superbosses (which are a minuscule part of the game).

However, that is entirely contingent on you actually getting the right weapons. It's hard and tedious to do. Naive players won't even know how to do it. Those who do might still fail because it's tricky in places. But it's unquestioningly available.

The same, in part, is true for other classes. Bushi jumps if you make an early Ame-no-Murakumo. Foebreaker's only redeeming feature is super early access to their ultimate weapon, Vrscika. Knight can grow quite strong using early Karkata. Archer might dominate early game if you get Burning Bow immediately (which, like with the guns, is quite hard). And so on.

Many classes have points on the timeline where their power is disproportionately higher because of gear/spell availability. Black Mage jumps considerably once you get Aero, for example, or with early Scathe. That makes it very difficult to say which class is "best" or "optimal" because it's a roller coaster ride on the power graph based on what items you can get.

A lot of people simply look at endgame, possibly even lvl 99 stats. They tell you that oh, such and such character ends up with 5 more of whatever stat as if that mattered at all given stat caps. Almost nobody actually even gets to that point, let alone get there before most of the game is already over and done with (not counting NG+, of course). It's fairly stupid to orient all your power based around five superboss fights - or worse, just 1 of them, which is what happens when people take Yiazmat as a benchmark. It skews things tremendously. Shikari, for example, is a middling damage dealer throughout a lot of the game. But because it's absolutely bonkers against Yiazmat specifically, it shoots up in people's perception. They seem to forget that without Black Robes and a dark-weak enemy, your ninja swords are just weak katanas. They don't seem to realize that faster charging on lower power might confer long-term benefits on super long fights (but not nearly as much as they think), but makes for pretty poor damage against random dungeon mobs - which are what 99% of the game is spent on.

You can't look at isolated examples from the power curve and draw conclusions based on them. Everything in this game is contingent on specific parameters - without those, everything falls apart. And they are not universally available, or uniformly distributed, or even unequivocally optimal at all stages.

The worst part of that is that the VALUE of the various peaks in power depends entirely on what you are doing at the time - which, given the highly non-linear nature of progression after Raithwall, is in turn based almost entirely on how individual players approach the game. Because the path you take it so greatly subjective, you cannot evaluate power in a vacuum. Not only do you not know when something becomes available to someone because they might just go somewhere else first, but the value of that power is also based on what they are doing. If you're off into Nabudis at lvl 15, there's some things that will be grossly more or less powerful. If you defer that until lvl 45, things look completely different. If you rush to get Mithuna right away, there's a wild swing in power - whereas if you do not, other choices show a lot more relative gain.

For that reason I've always been a proponent of not offering party templates, but rather analyze specific job combinations for themselves - with a focus on the pros and cons, i.e. the WHY behind their power rather than the WHAT in a party composition. Given that information, people can then assemble what they think matches THEIR path through the game the best. That is infinitely more useful than "look guys this is my optimal party" and listing 6 members with no explanation. That's how we got the whole "Shikari/Foebreaker = amazing" idiocy stuck in people's heads in the first place.

[Nezkeys]

just for something completely fresh next playthrough will probably do this for the fun of it lol...

White Mage/Shikari
White Mage/Machinist
Monk/Bushi
Monk/Foebreaker
Shikari/Rdm
Black Mage/Knight

[Nezkeys]

Id imagine the only true way to know all the combos inside out is if youve replayed multiple times and paired everything (which you probably have). I saw a topic on google where this one guy said his fave class was shikari so just made his team this lol...

shikari/whm
shikari/rdm
shikari/blm
shikari/time
shikari/bushi
shikari/foebreaker

well at least they will know exactly what theyre talking about when discussing shikari LMAO. weirdly though i find those type of weird runs fun sounding

[Nezkeys]

also i just found a dagger called gladius of a random enemy and now my shikari is doing the most damage so yeah guess it jumps around. i mean i was just going off store equipment i guess. since i havent played with bushi monk uhlan foebreaker by themselves yet i just have a feeling they do more damage early game as the attack values on their weapons are the highest

[Nezkeys]

also about machinist and archer...do you have to keep buying their ammo? seems like they will be expensive jobs to maintain if so