Good class setups without 12 job restriction

[Nezkeys]

As title says. Im thinking this just to try out some class combos that sound fun to me but im also interested in what is considered optimal. do i have everything covered with this or are these bad?

Whm/Shikari
Bushi/Monk(katanas)
Monk/Time(want to do pole monk)
Knight/Bushi(swords/greatswords)
Uhlan/Foebreaker(want to try zodiac spear as missed it in vanilla. Dont care what its paired with whatever is best. Im assuming forbreaker since i can give it genji?)
Blm/Rdm

This party gives me one mage (dont see why i need more than that), 4 melee dps(one as backup support), and 1 main healer thats also tanky. Is that too many melees?

[Scheneighnay]

Escrito originalmente por Nezkeys:

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Somewhat related question: is telekinesis even a thing in IZJS and TZA?
Don't think I've seen it on any license boards, and guests seem to hit with normal attacks instead of all having telekinesis like they did in the first release.

I tried to setup a gambit self status blind sight unseeing but it never worked so dunno

how is that related?

[Nezkeys]

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

You really can't go wrong with secondary classes because they aren't necessary, but these are my thoughts on yours:

White mage/shikari: Not optimal but not necessarily bad either. They don't benefit at all from the other's strengths but they don't defeat each other either.

Bushi/monk: amazing choice for someone with genji gloves. Not much else going for it, but I would suggest using poles instead of katana. Same high combo rate, but higher evasion and the ability to hit flying enemies.

Monk/time mage: Could make for an OP tank. Wear heavy armor on top of the monk's wall of health, then debuff with time magic. Crossbow might be better to utilize immobilize, which is an AoE now and affects a lot of enemies.

Knight/bushi: way too redundant and can't hit flying enemies

Uhlan/foebreaker: I have the same combo; haven't fully tested it but breaks are probably a fantastic idea on an Uhlan, though you can only get them in chests (defeating the purpose of the foebreaker by itself if you ask me).

Black/Red mage: redundant, and the black mage doesn't benefit much from it. If anything it's less effective because it's not 100% focused on nukes. Unless you plan on playing it as a red mage, which might not be bad.

How does ardor compare to firaga? Is it an aoe?

[Nezkeys]

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Escrito originalmente por Nezkeys:

I tried to setup a gambit self status blind sight unseeing but it never worked so dunno

how is that related?

You asked about telikinesis? (Which as far as im aware wasnt related to begin with) and i just said i cant answer you because ive never seen it work

[Nezkeys]

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

You really can't go wrong with secondary classes because they aren't necessary, but these are my thoughts on yours:

White mage/shikari: Not optimal but not necessarily bad either. They don't benefit at all from the other's strengths but they don't defeat each other either.

Bushi/monk: amazing choice for someone with genji gloves. Not much else going for it, but I would suggest using poles instead of katana. Same high combo rate, but higher evasion and the ability to hit flying enemies.

Monk/time mage: Could make for an OP tank. Wear heavy armor on top of the monk's wall of health, then debuff with time magic. Crossbow might be better to utilize immobilize, which is an AoE now and affects a lot of enemies.

Knight/bushi: way too redundant and can't hit flying enemies

Uhlan/foebreaker: I have the same combo; haven't fully tested it but breaks are probably a fantastic idea on an Uhlan, though you can only get them in chests (defeating the purpose of the foebreaker by itself if you ask me).

Black/Red mage: redundant, and the black mage doesn't benefit much from it. If anything it's less effective because it's not 100% focused on nukes. Unless you plan on playing it as a red mage, which might not be bad.

Also if i was making a party to switch people in and out the black mage wouldnt need to be paired with something like monk cause i already the monk bushi. And i thought blm/rdm was typically 100% focused on nukes? Since you just replace oil firaga with oil ardor at endgame with rdm...which is fine cause all it would be doing is nuking anyway?

[Hinnyuu]

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Somewhat related question: is telekinesis even a thing in IZJS and TZA?
Don't think I've seen it on any license boards, and guests seem to hit with normal attacks instead of all having telekinesis like they did in the first release.

Yes, it exists. Usefulness is diminished because some melee weapons hit flying by default now, and also because Shades of Black was buffed.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

White mage/shikari: Not optimal but not necessarily bad either. They don't benefit at all from the other's strengths but they don't defeat each other either.

I would disagree with this. In fact, Shikari/White Mage is probably the (evasion) tank I like the most out of all options. Being able to heal, buff, and tank on one character frees up more damage (read: more berserk). If you're losing time to heals etc. might as well be on the character that does less damage to begin with.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Bushi/monk: amazing choice for someone with genji gloves. Not much else going for it, but I would suggest using poles instead of katana. Same high combo rate, but higher evasion and the ability to hit flying enemies.

Also disagree. Use katana on this one, not poles. Poles are entirely based on STR, and losing heavy armor impacts their damage considerably for a large portion of the game (until Genji Gear or very very high levels). If you want to use poles, try Monk/Knight. If you absolutely want to support as a Monk and chuck heals regularly, try something like Monk/Black Mage. If you're using Genji Gloves and clobbering things, you also want to be in berserk. So no healing.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Knight/bushi: way too redundant and can't hit flying enemies

Knight gets Telekinesis with an Esper, Bushi gets Shades of Black for free. Flying enemies are largely irrelevant anyway.
Bushi is the only job pairing with Knight that gives both mystic armor (for White Robes) and 3 Swiftness licenses. It's absolutely excellent and one of the best attackers in the game, if not the best.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Black/Red mage: redundant, and the black mage doesn't benefit much from it. If anything it's less effective because it's not 100% focused on nukes. Unless you plan on playing it as a red mage, which might not be bad.

I don't understand the reasoning. There are redundancies, but how is this NOT 100% focused on nukes? It literally has all the best offensive spells and associated elemental boosting equipment. This combination doesn't do much BUT nuke. That's sort of the point.

[Nezkeys]

Escrito originalmente por Hinnyuu:

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Somewhat related question: is telekinesis even a thing in IZJS and TZA?
Don't think I've seen it on any license boards, and guests seem to hit with normal attacks instead of all having telekinesis like they did in the first release.

Yes, it exists. Usefulness is diminished because some melee weapons hit flying by default now, and also because Shades of Black was buffed.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

White mage/shikari: Not optimal but not necessarily bad either. They don't benefit at all from the other's strengths but they don't defeat each other either.

I would disagree with this. In fact, Shikari/White Mage is probably the (evasion) tank I like the most out of all options. Being able to heal, buff, and tank on one character frees up more damage (read: more berserk). If you're losing time to heals etc. might as well be on the character that does less damage to begin with.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Bushi/monk: amazing choice for someone with genji gloves. Not much else going for it, but I would suggest using poles instead of katana. Same high combo rate, but higher evasion and the ability to hit flying enemies.

Also disagree. Use katana on this one, not poles. Poles are entirely based on STR, and losing heavy armor impacts their damage considerably for a large portion of the game (until Genji Gear or very very high levels). If you want to use poles, try Monk/Knight. If you absolutely want to support as a Monk and chuck heals regularly, try something like Monk/Black Mage. If you're using Genji Gloves and clobbering things, you also want to be in berserk. So no healing.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Knight/bushi: way too redundant and can't hit flying enemies

Knight gets Telekinesis with an Esper, Bushi gets Shades of Black for free. Flying enemies are largely irrelevant anyway.
Bushi is the only job pairing with Knight that gives both mystic armor (for White Robes) and 3 Swiftness licenses. It's absolutely excellent and one of the best attackers in the game, if not the best.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Black/Red mage: redundant, and the black mage doesn't benefit much from it. If anything it's less effective because it's not 100% focused on nukes. Unless you plan on playing it as a red mage, which might not be bad.

I don't understand the reasoning. There are redundancies, but how is this NOT 100% focused on nukes? It literally has all the best offensive spells and associated elemental boosting equipment. This combination doesn't do much BUT nuke. That's sort of the point.

Monk/Knight never heard that. How does it compare to things like monk/time and monk/foebreaker for pole dps?

[Hinnyuu]

Escrito originalmente por Nezkeys:

Monk/Knight never heard that. How does it compare to things like monk/time and monk/foebreaker for pole dps?

Monk/Foebreaker is largely redundant because Monk already gets Wither/Expose for free. Monk/Time Battlemage doesn't have Genji Gear and is thus never going to compete.

Monk/Knight is arguably the best combo damage dealer for superbosses in your average game. Kanya combos the same as Kumbha, but charges 20% faster and doesn't depend on a second stat for its damage. For most of the lower level brackets, a Monk/Knight with Kanya and Genji Gloves will outdamage a Bushi/Knight with Kumbha on superbosses.

On short fights, Knight/Bushi obviously wins because nothing in the game competes with Excalibur + White Robes (except maybe Machinist when we're moving about oneshot-land).

[Scheneighnay]

Escrito originalmente por Hinnyuu:

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Black/Red mage: redundant, and the black mage doesn't benefit much from it. If anything it's less effective because it's not 100% focused on nukes. Unless you plan on playing it as a red mage, which might not be bad.

I don't understand the reasoning. There are redundancies, but how is this NOT 100% focused on nukes? It literally has all the best offensive spells and associated elemental boosting equipment. This combination doesn't do much BUT nuke. That's sort of the point.

Losing a rod means losing magic power which means losing damage.
Casting anything other than a black magic nuke costs MP which reduces your ability to continue spamming black magic.

As far as Katanas vs Poles as well, damage calculation changes to match the damage calculation of the primary class. So a bushi with poles with still rely on magic power when attacking with poles, though poles also calculate against magic defense.

[Nezkeys]

Bushi/Monk
Monk/Knight
Knight/Bushi
White Mage/Shikari
Black Mage/Red Battlemage
Uhlan/Time or Uhlan/Archer (or whatever is best with uhlan i dont care)

Im gonna run this i think. Shikari/Bushi and Whm/machinist just for one fight (yiazmat) seems OTT. If i decide to get zodiac spear this run tho that frees up that last slot for something else so i could probably make the second whm i guess altho i dont see the need for more than one whm tbh.

[Hinnyuu]

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Losing a rod means losing magic power which means losing damage.

I am again confused. Rods consistently add less MAG than Staves. Also, because MAG is the single easiest stat to max out, you can get casters to 99 MAG in their 60s. Anything beyond that would be redundant anyway because of the 99 hard cap.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Casting anything other than a black magic nuke costs MP which reduces your ability to continue spamming black magic.

But how is that unique to this combination? It's always true, for any combo. That's how magic works in this game. Not that MP is a real concern anyway (outside of NG-) because Ethers/Hi-Ethers can be bought in shops and Charge + augments is already a huge amount of staying power.

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

As far as Katanas vs Poles as well, damage calculation changes to match the damage calculation of the primary class. So a bushi with poles with still rely on magic power when attacking with poles, though poles also calculate against magic defense.

That's the first I ever hear this, and it goes against every established mechanical wisdom I have ever read (all of which has been verified empirically). Damage calculations are based on the weapon you are using, not on your job setup. What are you basing this on? Do you have some source everyone else isn't aware of?

[Scheneighnay]

Escrito originalmente por Hinnyuu:

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Casting anything other than a black magic nuke costs MP which reduces your ability to continue spamming black magic.

But how is that unique to this combination? It's always true, for any combo. That's how magic works in this game. Not that MP is a real concern anyway (outside of NG-) because Ethers/Hi-Ethers can be bought in shops and Charge + augments is already a huge amount of staying power.

No other job relies heavily on MP. It's unique to the black mage.

Escrito originalmente por Hinnyuu:

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

As far as Katanas vs Poles as well, damage calculation changes to match the damage calculation of the primary class. So a bushi with poles with still rely on magic power when attacking with poles, though poles also calculate against magic defense.

That's the first I ever hear this, and it goes against every established mechanical wisdom I have ever read (all of which has been verified empirically). Damage calculations are based on the weapon you are using, not on your job setup. What are you basing this on? Do you have some source everyone else isn't aware of?

Every time I've tried to mention knight/bushi making no sense, that's what people have told me.

So either Knight/bushi makes no sense or a bushi with a pole does.

[Hinnyuu]

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Every time I've tried to mention knight/bushi making no sense, that's what people have told me.

So either Knight/bushi makes no sense or a bushi with a pole does.

Or Option C, you don't quite understand the underlying mechanics.

It's fairly easy to verify damage calculation formulas. How someone could get it into their head to introduce some "primary class" thing is beyond me.

It's super easy to check, too. Just make a <anything>/Foebreaker and equip a breaker weapon or grenade. If "primary class" was a thing, you'd suddenly be doing consistent damage. But you're not.

[Nezkeys]

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Escrito originalmente por Hinnyuu:

But how is that unique to this combination? It's always true, for any combo. That's how magic works in this game. Not that MP is a real concern anyway (outside of NG-) because Ethers/Hi-Ethers can be bought in shops and Charge + augments is already a huge amount of staying power.

No other job relies heavily on MP. It's unique to the black mage.

Escrito originalmente por Hinnyuu:

That's the first I ever hear this, and it goes against every established mechanical wisdom I have ever read (all of which has been verified empirically). Damage calculations are based on the weapon you are using, not on your job setup. What are you basing this on? Do you have some source everyone else isn't aware of?

Every time I've tried to mention knight/bushi making no sense, that's what people have told me.

So either Knight/bushi makes no sense or a bushi with a pole does.

My blm almost never drops under 90% mp and thats rare because most of the time its always at max mp lol. My white/time is always low even with sage ring equipped. Id hazard a guess white/time uses more mp since it cant take advantage of the mp return for damaging and killing like blm can? Charge and ethers make it a sort of non issue tho.

Also regarding the damage tied to your starting class first ive heard too so inclined to agree with hinyuu here but just to be on the safe side ill start with the class i wanna use the weapon on eventually lol

[Scheneighnay]

Escrito originalmente por Hinnyuu:

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

Every time I've tried to mention knight/bushi making no sense, that's what people have told me.

So either Knight/bushi makes no sense or a bushi with a pole does.

Or Option C, you don't quite understand the underlying mechanics.

It's fairly easy to verify damage calculation formulas. How someone could get it into their head to introduce some "primary class" thing is beyond me.

It's super easy to check, too. Just make a <anything>/Foebreaker and equip a breaker weapon or grenade. If "primary class" was a thing, you'd suddenly be doing consistent damage. But you're not.

nice strawman you've got there

[Scheneighnay]

Escrito originalmente por Nezkeys:

Escrito originalmente por Scheneighnay:

No other job relies heavily on MP. It's unique to the black mage.


Every time I've tried to mention knight/bushi making no sense, that's what people have told me.

So either Knight/bushi makes no sense or a bushi with a pole does.

My blm almost never drops under 90% mp and thats rare because most of the time its always at max mp lol. My white/time is always low even with sage ring equipped. Id hazard a guess white/time uses more mp since it cant take advantage of the mp return for damaging and killing like blm can?

Also regarding the damage tied to your starting class first ive heard too so inclined to agree with hinyuu here but just to be on the safe side ill start with the class i wanna use the weapon on eventually lol

Odd, my white mages have never had MP problems but my black mages always have.