So... Why are Espers still crap?

[Bandit Hadron]

I played the original FF12 on my PS2 way back when it first released in North America, and I loved it. However, one thing I distinctly remember was how bad the Espers were - they became so terribly weak for anything except their final attacks that I never bothered to use them again.

And now in this remaster I'm encountering the same problem.

Why? I know we had to strike a balance between OP summons / special attacks from earlier FF games, but making them this weak doesn't strike me as having accomplished that.

[Hinnyuu]

It's a tough line to walk between "too weak" and "too powerful" when it comes to something the player can't customize. With jobs and gear you have mechanisms to stagger and gate power gains, but Espers are fairly binary - you have them, or you don't. If they were more powerful, they'd have to be harder to get, too, or they'd break the game difficulty wide open (and it's already fairly low). However since so many of them are tied to story events and/or dungeons the changes you'd have to make to make their acquisition more complicated would have too many ramifications for a quick fix. Having them be slightly better than in the original because of full control is probably the most realistic compromise they could come up with.

[Bandit Hadron]

I like that answer, but I feel that even a flat-out permanent damage resistance might have been a good way to make the fights themselves a bit tougher and the Espers a bit better overall.

[ᴛᴀʟᴜ 🐦]

Espers are tanky and great in many situations, just make sure the one who summons the esper got a bubble. If you can make the boss focus your esper its an easy fight, just keeping throwing free heals.

[Bandit Hadron]

I know the general strategy with Espers, but I still feel they're weak.

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Bandit Hadron:

I know the general strategy with Espers, but I still feel they're weak.

I think it's more accurate to say, they're weaker than party characters. Except for specific setups, like the whole Zeromus thing. But that's very niche.

[Sekoku]

Originally posted by Bandit Hadron:

I know the general strategy with Espers, but I still feel they're weak.

I mean, it depends on the summon. I got one of the two-bar summons that is able to randomly do 15,000 damage with it's "soul eat" ability that helped me in my 122333 challenge run to get (slowly) get through the numerous Skeletons to Roblon.

[Raemnant]

"Why are espers weak" he says, while I was over here using them to destroy Hell Wyrm, Zodiark and Yiazmat.

[Hinnyuu]

Much of that has to do with imprecise language and hyperbole. "Weak" has no absolute meaning in terms of game power. Only relative to something else. And relative to player characters, Espers tend to by and large be weakER.

[Raemnant]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

Much of that has to do with imprecise language and hyperbole. "Weak" has no absolute meaning in terms of game power. Only relative to something else. And relative to player characters, Espers tend to by and large be weakER.

Say that to the 32k health Ultima who can cast renew and does 16k damage per hit at lvl 65. Espers level up with you, and are generally very powerful if you use the right grade during the right time period in the game. Rank 1s in early game, rank twos in mid, rank 3s in late

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Raemnant:

Say that to the 32k health Ultima who can cast renew and does 16k damage per hit at lvl 65. Espers level up with you, and are generally very powerful if you use the right grade during the right time period in the game. Rank 1s in early game, rank twos in mid, rank 3s in late

That may sound impressive, but compared to the loss of two characters it's a considerable damage loss. (Not to mention a Mithuna user can do 20k+ hits as well at like level 30)

I'm not saying Espers don't have their uses or aren't nice to have at certain points in the game, but there's almost always a player character alternative that will simply do better - one of the big exceptions being Zeromus because of the massive AoE damage, but that's fairly niche in application.

[Raemnant]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

Originally posted by Raemnant:

Say that to the 32k health Ultima who can cast renew and does 16k damage per hit at lvl 65. Espers level up with you, and are generally very powerful if you use the right grade during the right time period in the game. Rank 1s in early game, rank twos in mid, rank 3s in late

That may sound impressive, but compared to the loss of two characters it's a considerable damage loss. (Not to mention a Mithuna user can do 20k+ hits as well at like level 30)

I'm not saying Espers don't have their uses or aren't nice to have at certain points in the game, but there's almost always a player character alternative that will simply do better - one of the big exceptions being Zeromus because of the massive AoE damage, but that's fairly niche in application.

If a player is using an Esper to kill a boss either A)its for fun, or B),they dont have a better alternative. Your argument itself is a niche example. We all have espers, and easily so

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Raemnant:

If a player is using an Esper to kill a boss either A)its for fun, or B),they dont have a better alternative. Your argument itself is a niche example. We all have espers, and easily so

Not sure I get the argument. Well, I get A), and that's beyond discussion. Fun first, always. But B) seems like a non-argument to me, because the moment you get your first Esper you also open up some crazy gear. That doesn't mean you HAVE to go get it - but you could. If you choose not to do so - which is totally legitimate, it's your choice - that doesn't make Espers better. The crazy gear is still the better choice, you just chose not to go for it.

Much like, say, Kumbha will always be better than Masamune. Even if you choose not to make Kumbha for whatever reason, it will be better. You're just deciding not to use it.

[Faint]

gotta learn how to use them.. Zeromus alone can wipe all but one super boss off the map if you know how to use big bang properly

[AH-1 Cobra]

I saw a video where someone nuked the trial mode judges with Zeromus for like 250k damage.

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

I saw a video where someone nuked the trial mode judges with Zeromus for like 250k damage.

That's basically as good as it gets for Espers, however it's fairly specific to very few fights as it's best on AoE and there just aren't many boss fights with several bosses present. Trial Mode has most of those.