Thought: Implement "Toggle weapon mode": one/both pistols, to pistol pairs.

[Manouil III]

Loadout: Pistol pair + Short shotgun.
Situation: You spot an unaware stationary hunter, far away from you.

You cannot execute him with one bullet to the head, because (for some unrealistic reason) you are unable to use just the one of your two pistols, and put it down sights.

Possible serious negative implications of such implementation?

[2D > 3D WEEB 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by Prokman:

Possible serious negative implications of such implementation?

It would remove a significant negative of picking akimbo.

[Manouil III]

Originally posted by BAD RAT:

Originally posted by Prokman:

Possible serious negative implications of such implementation?

It would remove a significant negative of picking akimbo.

More of a meme negative, than a "serious" one :)

[Dexta]

Yes that would make dualwielding actually useful.

[2D > 3D WEEB 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by Prokman:

More of a meme negative, than a "serious" one :)

The point is that you have to choose between additional accuracy or firepower. Giving you the option of changing it on the fly would make picking one pistol redundant.

It's like if we got shotguns with slugs for long range or if you could push your scope to the side and use iron sights with snipers.

[Manouil III]

Originally posted by BAD RAT:

Originally posted by Prokman:

More of a meme negative, than a "serious" one :)

The point is that you have to choose between additional accuracy or firepower. Giving you the option of changing it on the fly would make picking one pistol redundant.

It's like if we got shotguns with slugs for long range or if you could push your scope to the side and use iron sights with snipers.

But the single pistol occupies a small slot, how it is becoming redundant?

Plus, a pair of Conversion Pistols does not mean that you have firepower over accuracy. I would call it more of suppression power over accuracy. The "power" increase costs one slot size and it has been already paid.

[2D > 3D WEEB 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by Prokman:

But the single pistol occupies a small slot, how it is becoming redundant?

I don't think that having to play one game to get ambidextrous+quartermaster for the setup is a big enough drawback considering that you get the best of both worlds.

Plus, a pair of Conversion Pistols does not mean that you have firepower over accuracy.
I would call it more of suppression power over accuracy.

Fair enough, but you still have more shots available. Not to mention that you could easily bait people by starting out with a single pistol, almost emptying it, running behind a corner and then toggling back to akimbo instead of reloading.

The "power" increase costs one slot size and it has been already paid.

I just think it's a choice that should be made in the lobby. Do you want a close to medium range slot or a medium to long range slot? Having the choice of both in one slot for a small price just defaults to being better.

[Manouil III]

I think that the short/medium/long range nature of your arms, is more of a matter of the bullet type.

[Antpile]

I totally get the argument here. That it is for gameplay reasons, not realism reasons, to balance out the additional firepower and ammo of dual wielding pistols.

But, also, as it stands you can just take fanning and suddenly that single pistol is better than dual wielding at close ranges as well as all other ranges. So as it is now, dual wielding is pretty pointless. And the argument of spending enough points to get quartermaster and ambi to nullify the negatives of the medium slot and slow reload are also pointless, because once again fanning for 7 points makes a single pistol more powerful at all ranges than the akimbo pistols.

The only redeeming value of akimbo pistols right now is that you can use it at bloodline rank 1 and hunter rank 1 with no perks and still have a fairly powerful close range option with pistols. Mostly useful for gaining xp with a particular weapon to unlock more pistols. Because, really, if you want medium range a winnie will just outperform dual pistols. Once you have levering it'll probably outperform dual pistols even at close ranges.

And shotguns will obviously outperform dual pistols at fighting inside building ranges, if that is why you are bringing them. A romero handcannon will beat you any day of the week when you both come around a corner or peek up a staircase.

[2D > 3D WEEB 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by Antpile:

But, also, as it stands you can just take fanning and suddenly that single pistol is better than dual wielding at close ranges as well as all other ranges.

That's partially true, you still have less shots available before reloading.

So as it is now, dual wielding is pretty pointless.

Having the option to shower the near vicinity with bullets isn't that bad.

And the argument of spending enough points to get quartermaster and ambi to nullify the negatives of the medium slot and slow reload are also pointless, because once again fanning for 7 points makes a single pistol more powerful at all ranges than the akimbo pistols.

The thing is that single pistols need fanning to spam bullets so they trade points for a positive while akimbo has that by default and trades points to remove negatives. Having worse accuracy is a penalty for having two times the shots before reloading.

The only redeeming value of akimbo pistols right now is that you can use it at bloodline rank 1 and hunter rank 1 with no perks and still have a fairly powerful close range option with pistols.

It's a pretty big upside compared to having a medium rifle variant or shotgun.

Mostly useful for gaining xp with a particular weapon to unlock more pistols.

Unlike with certain one shot variants you're still able to hold and rush decently. A better example of a variant farming weapon is the one handed crossbow.

Because, really, if you want medium range a winnie will just outperform dual pistols. Once you have levering it'll probably outperform dual pistols even at close ranges.

That's true, but to be fair it'll probably be more useful than a single pistol with fanning so the issue isn't limited to akimbo. As a side note; the monstrosity known as Dolch akimbo still exists but at least it's expensive.

And shotguns will obviously outperform dual pistols at fighting inside building ranges, if that is why you are bringing them.

True, but shotguns don't have any real use outside of extremely close ranges. Not to mention that they're easily the most inconsistent weapon class in this game.

A romero handcannon will beat you any day of the week when you both come around a corner or peek up a staircase.

It also suffers from horrendously short range and one shot before reloading.

[Berserkir # Ragnarök]

Originally posted by BAD RAT:

That's partially true, you still have less shots available before reloading.

Yeah but it's only a small slot not a medium one.

Having the option to shower the near vicinity with bullets isn't that bad.

Compared to what ?
To the average TTK, yes it is... because you can only shower the near vicinity with bullets if you survive for long enough and a quickswapp takes ~1.2 seconds, in that time you can shoot 3 - 4 bullets with dualwielding single action revolvers

The thing is that single pistols need fanning to spam bullets so they trade points for a positive while akimbo has that by default and trades points to remove negatives. Having worse accuracy is a penalty for having two times the shots before reloading.

But it is also a medium slot and not a small slot by default, so you are confined to the rather bad medium slot weapons, or to buying a 6 cost perk.

So akimbo would trade slot size for the power instead of perkpoints, but as it stands now akimbo trades 6 perkpoints + slotsize, while fanning only needs 7 perkpoints

This argument would be right if akimbo was a small slot

It's a pretty big upside compared to having a medium rifle variant or shotgun.

With a lvl. 1 Hunter you have no traits in general, so you are confined to a medium rifle or shotgun to combo it with what completely negates the upside...

Unlike with certain one shot variants you're still able to hold and rush decently. A better example of a variant farming weapon is the one handed crossbow.

after playing an entire shotgun prestige i can confidently say, pushing with a sawn-off romero is incredibly effective... you don't need a second shot, especiallly since you are so close to the enemy anyways that you can just finish him or a mate with a knife

That's true, but to be fair it'll probably be more useful than a single pistol with fanning so the issue isn't limited to akimbo. As a side note; the monstrosity known as Dolch akimbo still exists but at least it's expensive.

No, not really. A single pistol with fanning loses me ~4m in killrange (conversion vs Winfield), but gets way faster TTK up close due to the fanning RoF and leaves me with a large weaponslot to fill while a Winnie only leaves a pistol slot...

Dolch akimbo is useless tho, because you loose the only upside of semiautos, spamming in ADS and don't even gain the high RoF boost as other pistols do.
Dolch akimbo is mainly used to stack ammo for a dolch precision, bu them we look at a ~2100+ $ loadout that isn't actually that useful.

True, but shotguns don't have any real use outside of extremely close ranges. Not to mention that they're easily the most inconsistent weapon class in this game.

Nah, Dualies are way more inconsistent as they relie just as much on RNG as shotguns, but with a shotty you have instant results With dualies you have to spam bullet after bullet in hopes of hitting someday, what drastically increases TTK, meaning you propably die before you get the second hit with dualies

It also suffers from horrendously short range and one shot before reloading.

It also benefits from a great surprise effect and low cost, and a 3 sec reload isn't all that bad, plus if you are so close you shouldn't reaload anyway, just stab the mate with a knife.
(If his mate is close enough to punish your push within the 3 sec reloadtime, then he is in knifecharge range...)



Now that doesn't mean dualies should have a toggle mode all willy nilly.
If you were to implement it, it would need some extra downsides, but with a careful implementation im sure a toggle function wouldn't be OP but healthy to the state of dualies.

Extra downsides / balances would be:

• Dualies shouldn't increase the ammo pool more than a single pistol
  
• No fanning with toggled Dualies
  
• Dualies always drawn as a pair, so you can't effectively quickswapp as you will need to go through the draw animation, then through the holster animation of one gun, so you wouldn't really be able to quickswapp under ~3 sec as opposed to 1.2 sec with fanning

[2D > 3D WEEB 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by Berserkir # Ragnarök:

Yeah but it's only a small slot not a medium one.

That's exactly the point.

Compared to what ?

Most other medium weapons, especially the rifle variants.

To the average TTK, yes it is... because you can only shower the near vicinity with bullets if you survive for long enough and a quickswapp takes ~1.2 seconds,

If you're dead you're dead either way, your loadout doesn't matter at that point.

in that time you can shoot 3 - 4 bullets with dualwielding single action revolvers

So it's still slower.

So akimbo would trade slot size for the power instead of perkpoints, but as it stands now akimbo trades 6 perkpoints + slotsize, while fanning only needs 7 perkpoints

This argument would be right if akimbo was a small slot

Except that two pistols still hold more shots than one, which is the obvious trade-off in the slot size.

With a lvl. 1 Hunter you have no traits in general, so you are confined to a medium rifle or shotgun to combo it with what completely negates the upside...

Akimbo + medium shotgun is probably still more useful than other early mediums like akimbo + axe. Setting the stage at level 1 isn't even my idea since it basically limits your setup either way.

after playing an entire shotgun prestige i can confidently say, pushing with a sawn-off romero is incredibly effective... you don't need a second shot, especiallly since you are so close to the enemy anyways that you can just finish him or a mate with a knife

The original argument is still about how many shots you get.

No, not really. A single pistol with fanning loses me ~4m in killrange (conversion vs Winfield), but gets way faster TTK up close due to the fanning RoF and leaves me with a large weaponslot to fill while a Winnie only leaves a pistol slot...

I mean you can just use both or either or to achieve the same so I don't get what you're arguing. Doubt there's that many fanning+levering builds out there and even then you could still roll akimbo+levering if you really wanted to spam.

Unless your point is about abusing quick swaps on a pistol with fanning which I think should get looked at either way.

Dolch akimbo is useless tho, because you loose the only upside of semiautos, spamming in ADS and don't even gain the high RoF boost as other pistols do.

You're missing the point again, it was about the amount of shots you get with one gun compared to two. The obvious downside of losing accuracy is already mentioned way back.

And since we're talking about theoretical situations it's better if you're able to land them, which is the assumption in close range situations.

Dolch akimbo is mainly used to stack ammo for a dolch precision, bu them we look at a ~2100+ $ loadout that isn't actually that useful.

I don't think it's a reliable setup either, that's why I mentioned the price. But then again we're making up scenarios here so the money isn't really an issue for the sake of the argument.

Nah, Dualies are way more inconsistent as they relie just as much on RNG as shotguns, but with a shotty you have instant results

Again, it's about how many shots you get and the trade-off of getting said shots which is bad accuracy.

With dualies you have to spam bullet after bullet in hopes of hitting someday, what drastically increases TTK, meaning you propably die before you get the second hit with dualies

And that's the reason why you have the extra shots.

It also benefits from a great surprise effect and low cost

Well I mean if we're going to argue about getting the jump on someone then we might as well mention the melee one shot weapons.

and a 3 sec reload isn't all that bad

It's way worse than not having to reload.

plus if you are so close you shouldn't reaload anyway, just stab the mate with a knife.

That could be said about any gun in the game.

(If his mate is close enough to punish your push within the 3 sec reloadtime, then he is in knifecharge range...)

3 seconds is enough to run through a small house and about halfway through a boss lair. Having those extra shots available is pretty significant.

Now that doesn't mean dualies should have a toggle mode all willy nilly.
If you were to implement it, it would need some extra downsides, but with a careful implementation im sure a toggle function wouldn't be OP but healthy to the state of dualies.

Extra downsides / balances would be:

• Dualies shouldn't increase the ammo pool more than a single pistol
  
• No fanning with toggled Dualies
  
• Dualies always drawn as a pair, so you can't effectively quickswapp as you will need to go through the draw animation, then through the holster animation of one gun, so you wouldn't really be able to quickswapp under ~3 sec as opposed to 1.2 sec with fanning

I can agree with you on those points.

[Thief183]

Well, I asked myself the same but it would be a little to OP, Imagine Mosin, +double pax with the abiliti to make also the fast switch...

[Connatic]

The only way to make this option close to fair, is you can only take two pistols total in your weapon loadout.

[Berserkir # Ragnarök]

Originally posted by BAD RAT:

That's exactly the point.

The point i tried to make was that fanning is way better as the value of opening more loadouts because not needing a medium slot, higher TTK in CQC because of the drastically higher RoF makes fanning way stronger than dualies

Most other medium weapons, especially the rifle variants.

On PC the ability to ads greatly outvalues any magsize advantage dualies would have, because ADS allows you to secure minimal TTK, But most medium slot weapons are rather bad in general...

If you're dead you're dead either way, your loadout doesn't matter at that point.

My point was that you can secure the low TTK with the ability to ADS, while you are at the mercy of RNG hitting at least 2 out of max ~4 bullets you need to kill the enemy before dying yourself

So it's still slower.

Ofcours, but RoF doesn't mean much if you don't get accuracy (at least on PC)

Except that two pistols still hold more shots than one, which is the obvious trade-off in the slot size.

But the TTK is slower on Dualies balancing the higher mag size, leaving fanning with still one more advantage.

Akimbo + medium shotgun is probably still more useful than other early mediums like akimbo + axe. Setting the stage at level 1 isn't even my idea since it basically limits your setup either way.

Nagant precision + romero handcannon / Winfield Vandal + romero handcannon
Again the ability to ADS allows for greater range coverage and minimized TTK what easily outvalues any magsize advantage.

The original argument is still about how many shots you get.

Yeah, and my argument is that you don't need many shots. A sawn off kills in one tap and after that you can just knive the dude... No need for a high mag size

I mean you can just use both or either or to achieve the same so I don't get what you're arguing. Doubt there's that many fanning+levering builds out there and even then you could still roll akimbo+levering if you really wanted to spam.

What i'm saying is that it's way more effective to bring a fanning pistol or even only a single pistol over dualies, because i can actually just bring a full size rifle, like a martini or sparks, and by investing into fanning it is way more efficient to bring Sparks for longrange, having quickswapp on medium and fanning in CQC, while with quartermaster i can bring Sparks + Dualies, but i can't secure medium range via quickswapp and on close range fanning has a better TTK than Dualies because Rof, so they lose in really CQC too.

Unless your point is about abusing quick swaps on a pistol with fanning which I think should get looked at either way.

I think that it should be looked at too, but right now this is the competition to Dualies, and the Dualies don't stand a chance in comparison

You're missing the point again, it was about the amount of shots you get with one gun compared to two. The obvious downside of losing accuracy is already mentioned way back.

And since we're talking about theoretical situations it's better if you're able to land them, which is the assumption in close range situations.

Not sure what you mean exactly, but i stated in the end that a rework of the Dualies reserve ammo system would be needed to prevent people from bringing double ammo on one gun via toggling ADS, and even if not they paid double for the guns and require a medium slot, so the only gun i'd care for doing this would be the dolch....

Again, it's about how many shots you get and the trade-off of getting said shots which is bad accuracy.

But all those shots don't mean anything if they don't hit. None of the low accuracy weapons or tactics are popular (on PC) because of this...

And that's the reason why you have the extra shots.

But you don't get to use them if the enemy has at least decent aim, because with ADS i can secure a kill anywhere between 0.5 (headshot) to 1.2 sec (quickswapp), so the extra ammo is irrelevant

Well I mean if we're going to argue about getting the jump on someone then we might as well mention the melee one shot weapons.

The surprise effect on shotguns is way stronger than dualies because you can secure a OHK where dualies need several shots which allows for time to react, and melee weapons are pretty useless to, because most bayonetts have higher or the same range with the same or more damage all the while not needing a weaponslot and the knife is a OHK too.

It's way worse than not having to reload.

Well but if you have to reload because RNG you are way slower, and by that logic needing 2 shots to kill is way worse than 1.

That could be said about any gun in the game.

Well not against shotties / crossbows or fanning, as there you are in the sweetspot for a OHK (or faster TTK than you can react and reposition in fanning's case)

3 seconds is enough to run through a small house and about halfway through a boss lair. Having those extra shots available is pretty significant.

But there is normally a reaction time to your partner getting downed, and what is he gonna do ?
If he runs away you reload, if he pushes you, you stab his face with a knife, it's a win either way...


Again i want to emphasize that the implementation of such a feature would have to be properly thought through, but if done so i believe that it would work fine.

Ofc it would be unbalanced if they just added the option to ADS to dualies, without a second thought, which is why i gave examples for possible downsides that would allow for it to be a better medium slot weapon for low lvl players that offers more variety and range, while still not being able to compete with the popular quickswapp or enabling ridiculous ammo stacking properties.
And those are just thoughts, if there are other reasonable downsides that could be added, i'm open to feedback.

good day and happy Hunting

[2D > 3D WEEB 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by Berserkir # Ragnarök:

The point i tried to make was that fanning is way better as the value of opening more loadouts because not needing a medium slot, higher TTK in CQC because of the drastically higher RoF makes fanning way stronger than dualies

You're right, but it's irrelevant to the original argument(s) about what dual wielding has and doesn't have compared to single pistols. Namely the accuracy penalty and extra ammunition.

Fanning being practically better in close quarters than akimbo is a discussion of its own.

On PC the ability to ads greatly outvalues any magsize advantage dualies would have, because ADS allows you to secure minimal TTK

True, but then again you won't be using ads while fanning either way so it mainly circles back to how many bullets you have and how many you happen to hit.

But most medium slot weapons are rather bad in general...

Agreed.

My point was that you can secure the low TTK with the ability to ADS, while you are at the mercy of RNG hitting at least 2 out of max ~4 bullets you need to kill the enemy before dying yourself

Again, the point was about how many bullets you have available. If you're fanning or dual wielding you won't ads either way so it's mainly about luck after shotgun distance.

Ofcours, but RoF doesn't mean much if you don't get accuracy (at least on PC)

But the argument is still about having bullets or not. If you hit them or not is irrelevant since it could be said about any gun but the penalty is obviously bigger for single shot weapons with long reloads.

But the TTK is slower on Dualies balancing the higher mag size, leaving fanning with still one more advantage.

But it doesn't matter in this context since it's not about fanning compared to dual wielding. It's about how many bullets you get in one gun compared to two and the way the (dis)advantages are implemented.

Nagant precision + romero handcannon / Winfield Vandal + romero handcannon
Again the ability to ADS allows for greater range coverage and minimized TTK what easily outvalues any magsize advantage.

Again, it's not about that.

Yeah, and my argument is that you don't need many shots.

It's irrelevant since the premise of the argument is that it's theoretical. You have a certain amount of bullets or you have twice that amount. If you hit them or not isn't the focus here.

A sawn off kills in one tap and after that you can just knive the dude... No need for a high mag size

Right, and the bomb lance kills in one and so does the nitro. But if people had the option of having extra shots before reloading with those weapons they would probably opt into that.

What i'm saying is that it's way more effective to bring a fanning pistol or even only a single pistol over dualies, because i can actually just bring a full size rifle, like a martini or sparks, and by investing into fanning it is way more efficient to bring Sparks for longrange, having quickswapp on medium and fanning in CQC, while with quartermaster i can bring Sparks + Dualies, but i can't secure medium range via quickswapp and on close range fanning has a better TTK than Dualies because Rof, so they lose in really CQC too.

Again, I'm explaining why two guns have more ammo than one and the penalty that comes with it.
I don't think that having the option to switch between both positives would make any sense since you wouldn't have any real reason to bring a single pistol after getting quartermaster.

I think that it should be looked at too, but right now this is the competition to Dualies, and the Dualies don't stand a chance in comparison

That's true, but it's not really directly related to the original point(s) being discussed.

Not sure what you mean exactly

I'm trying to tell you that it's pointless to consider if the shots would hit or not since it's a theoretical situation. For the sake of simplicity we can assume that every shot would land which leads us to the conclusion that having more bullets to spend before reloading means that you can land more shots before having to reload.

but i stated in the end that a rework of the Dualies reserve ammo system would be needed to prevent people from bringing double ammo on one gun via toggling ADS, and even if not they paid double for the guns and require a medium slot, so the only gun i'd care for doing this would be the dolch....

I agree.

But all those shots don't mean anything if they don't hit. None of the low accuracy weapons or tactics are popular (on PC) because of this...

It's pointless to consider if the shots are actually going to hit or not since we don't know. Missing with a Romero is worse than missing with a Caldwell which in turn is worse than missing with a Specter just because of the simple fact that you have less room for error before you're forced to reload.

But you don't get to use them if the enemy has at least decent aim, because with ADS i can secure a kill anywhere between 0.5 (headshot) to 1.2 sec (quickswapp), so the extra ammo is irrelevant

It's still not relevant because we can apply the same criteria to both fanning a revolver and dual wielding pistols. You won't be using ads in either situation.

The surprise effect on shotguns is way stronger than dualies because you can secure a OHK where dualies need several shots which allows for time to react

Right, but I was talking about a scenario where a fight is already going on and you fool someone into thinking that you have one guns worth of shots when you actually have two. When someone misses their first and only shot with a Romero you'll know for sure that they won't be shooting that thing again for a few seconds.

and melee weapons are pretty useless to, because most bayonetts have higher or the same range with the same or more damage all the while not needing a weaponslot and the knife is a OHK too.

Point was that if we consider the element of surprise it's irrelevant what one shot weapon you have since it's going to kill in melee range either way.

Well but if you have to reload because RNG you are way slower, and by that logic needing 2 shots to kill is way worse than 1.

We're still not considering bad aim or luck here because the same thing could be applied to most weapons. Bottom line is that in a situation where you're going to land your hits it's always going to be better to have more shots.

Well not against shotties / crossbows or fanning, as there you are in the sweetspot for a OHK (or faster TTK than you can react and reposition in fanning's case)

But you're the one arguing that you should just melee instead of reloading so it doesn't really bear any significance what gun you have at that point.

But there is normally a reaction time to your partner getting downed, and what is he gonna do ?
If he runs away you reload

Again, the point was that you won't have to reload if you don't run out of ammo.

if he pushes you, you stab his face with a knife, it's a win either way...

Except that you might not want to get into melee range with him and just kill him from distance instead.

Again i want to emphasize that the implementation of such a feature would have to be properly thought through, but if done so i believe that it would work fine.

Ofc it would be unbalanced if they just added the option to ADS to dualies, without a second thought, which is why i gave examples for possible downsides that would allow for it to be a better medium slot weapon for low lvl players that offers more variety and range, while still not being able to compete with the popular quickswapp or enabling ridiculous ammo stacking properties.
And those are just thoughts, if there are other reasonable downsides that could be added, i'm open to feedback.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just trying to clarify what my original points thoughts around the subject were.

good day and happy Hunting :hunter0:

Likewise.