Shotguns are broken????

[Durendal]

I googled this issue and came across this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VV5Ahn95Is&ab_channel=Neosbeyond

I have literally been having the same problem, but worse because I'm HITTING my targets. I sadly don't have a video, but just the other day I shot a guy in the back with the Specter almost point blank (I snuck up behind him while he was sneaking up behind another team). I shoot him, he spins around and shoots me with a headshot from a pistol and I die instantly.

I don't know if its a damage issue or a hit detection issue, but I've been running shotguns a lot recently and the damage seems to be all over the place. I know this is a game, but in real life if I shoot a guy in the back with a shotgun, he's going down either in a lot of pain or he'll die.

Any suggestions? I know a lot of other people have this issue because when people shoot at me with shotguns I almost always survive as well.

[GRU-Vy]

shotguns are in a weird spot. they range from very effective to downright the reason why you get killed. people say slugs are the way to go as it reliably 1 shot kills. yes and no, i was using romero with slugs and i 1 hit a guy from upper chest well within its range and it didnt kill him, my partner who was spectating said hes seen the same thing occur lately. romero with standard ammo is probably the most consistent, followed by caldwell rival, spectre and crown & king probably do the least amount of damage (possibly spread is too high? or damage drop off dips heavily?). some people swear by slugs but for me ive found only disappointment. its taken me 2 shots, at which i could use standard ammo at a cheaper cost.

[Durendal]

Originally posted by GRU-Vy:

snip.

I know its a different game, but the Trench gun's dragon breath on Killing floor was amazing. I used to run Firebug and deal so much damage on that game just catching everything on fire. On here, I shoot a guy and they just keep on jump shooting and running around, and due to the low range it just doesn't make it a very effective option for PVP combat.

Even with spread, something needs to change with the shotguns. I've used the slugs and my brother uses slugs, and yes, our success rate for kills has risen with shotguns, but the point of peppering an area with a large amount of bullets is to either incapacitate or cause severe bleeding in a large area, and the shotties aren't doing either of those here (flechete rounds are too unreliable).

My brother says he has had more luck with Penny shot, but to me it sounds like slugs and penny shots are more situational because as you said, sometimes you shoot a guy and they keep running.

So then I thought "I'll use them to breech buildings by shooting through the walls like Rainbow six siege" annnnnd NOPE! The penetration damage isn't even that great. I hit the guy and he just ran to another spot.

Shotguns are my favorite in most games but the damage here is all out of whack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMcagShSycI&ab_channel=4FSGaming


My brother also sent me the above Youtube video, and this is great and it makes sense, but the fact that two or three pellets hit with little to no damage seems like a balance issue to me when a dude can just spin around and one shot me with pistol. Just use pistols instead then?
Even with the poor accuracy I've had better luck with dual pistols.


TL;DR:

How about this: Leave the shotgun's damage and spread the same, but make players get knocked down the same way zombies do!

Even if the person doesn't die, at least I can knock them on their ass to temporally take them out of the fight!

[GRU-Vy]

Shotguns were pretty much in a perfect spot when the game was in alpha. Then they buffed them for no reason to the point its all anyone ever used. Then they rebalanced them based on their length of barrel (which spectre and romero were king). They've been nerfed again so now only the romero has a longer range than the rest. in the alpha shotguns caused bleeding but got removed. Personaly i think all custom ammo should be removed except for crossbows.

Knockback has been suggested but that would break the game. Hit detection isnt the greatest with any gun, so unfortunatly when combined with a weapon that relies on pellets rather than a single projectile, you will get mixed results. The most effective way to use a shotgun is when somone pushes you or (what i personally do) is push aggressivly while my partner keeps them busy. You wil be surprised how much ground you can cover during the chaos.

[Troubleshooter]

Did you watch the video you provided?

First clip - buckshot, good range, good aim.
Second clip - Slugs, misses every shot
Third clip - he fires half the buckshot over the dude's back
Fourth clip - He throws the first shot into the dirt, maybe getting a few pellets into the foot/leg, second shot probably registered to the server after the other dude already domed him because he didn't even trade... this is where lag compensation causes players to lose their mind.

Any time you think the game is acting weird, just use shadow play and clip it. Then watch your replay on the slowest speed you can and see what's happening.

Often, its your fault - or a very close call where near simultaneous action leads to lag compensation tricking your client in to making you think something happened out of sequence.

[Durendal]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter:

Did you watch the video you provided?

First clip - buckshot, good range, good aim.
Second clip - Slugs, misses every shot
Third clip - he fires half the buckshot over the dude's back
Fourth clip - He throws the first shot into the dirt, maybe getting a few pellets into the foot/leg, second shot probably registered to the server after the other dude already domed him because he didn't even trade... this is where lag compensation causes players to lose their mind.

Any time you think the game is acting weird, just use shadow play and clip it. Then watch your replay on the slowest speed you can and see what's happening.

Often, its your fault - or a very close call where near simultaneous action leads to lag compensation tricking your client in to making you think something happened out of sequence.

Why would I share a video without watching it? Yes I watched it. But as I also pointed out with my own personal encounters, I'm hitting them but it doesn't do much. And I don't think I've ever died to a shotgun against another player.

Regardless, even if he aimed over the guy's shoulder, the whole point of shotguns is prey and spray and saturate the area with pellets so that even if your aim isn't so great, you can still hit the target. The fact that he aimed so close to the guy's shoulder and every single pellet missed baffles me. If this was any other game with a shotgun, even if it wasn't a kill, that would have been at least a hit.

[Durendal]

Originally posted by GRU-Vy:

(snip)
Personaly i think all custom ammo should be removed except for crossbows.

Knockback has been suggested but that would break the game. Hit detection isnt the greatest with any gun, so unfortunatly when combined with a weapon that relies on pellets rather than a single projectile, you will get mixed results. The most effective way to use a shotgun is when somone pushes you or (what i personally do) is push aggressivly while my partner keeps them busy. You wil be surprised how much ground you can cover during the chaos.

This is pretty much how I play when I do use shotguns, and I get the hit but they just don't die. I always aim for upper body.

I think they need to bring back either the bleed damage or add knockback. I just fought the spider boss and it jumped on me and knocked me down, just take that same function for when you get shot. With the low range and inaccurate pellets, I think it balances out that the gun at least knocks the target off their feet the way it does with NPCs.

[neo2157]

whenever i use something besides a romero a feel like im just doing random dice roles in a table top RPG. (and even the romero has its days that it just totally whiff's.)

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Durendal:

Why would I share a video without watching it? Yes I watched it.

Because if you watched it, you wouldn't have bothered to ask the question if they are broken... this dude is missing his shots and taking bad shots. That's evidence that he's having a bad day, not that the game is doing something wrong.

As for your experience, without video, we can't see what you're talking about.

So, sorry for your loss, dont run shotguns I guess.

FWIW, my fav. gun in the game is the Romero talon with buckshot. It's a duo-wipe specialist.

I'm starting to love the flichette rival with lemat backup though... bleeding people out and finishing them while they heal or dance around cover feels so right.

[Durendal]

Originally posted by neo2157:

whenever i use something besides a romero a feel like im just doing random dice roles in a table top RPG. (and even the romero has its days that it just totally whiff's.)

I agree. I have the most consistent luck with the Nagant Officer Carbine, but sometimes even that has some weird damage when it comes to body shots. I would prefer if they removed all nerfs and focused more on cover/suppressing fire so that shots do more bleed/overall damage. If I get shot and die that's fine, I'll take that L, but hitting a dude 3 to 4 times and they just keep jump-running around is annoying.

[Durendal]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter:

Originally posted by Durendal:

Why would I share a video without watching it? Yes I watched it.

Because if you watched it, you wouldn't have bothered to ask the question if they are broken... this dude is missing his shots and taking bad shots. That's evidence that he's having a bad day, not that the game is doing something wrong.

As for your experience, without video, we can't see what you're talking about.

So, sorry for your loss, dont run shotguns I guess.

Having the attitude of "Just don't use it" doesn't fix the problem though. As the other guy above already pointed out-

Originally posted by GRU-Vy:

Shotguns were pretty much in a perfect spot when the game was in alpha. Then they buffed them for no reason to the point its all anyone ever used. Then they rebalanced them based on their length of barrel (which spectre and romero were king). They've been nerfed again so now only the romero has a longer range than the rest. in the alpha shotguns caused bleeding but got removed.

^ In an attempt to fix the shotguns, they broke them. This isn't an isolated event, there are posts all over the internet about it.
I just used that guy's video as an example.

I simply shared because above I said I googled the issue to see if other people experienced the same problem and there are quite a few posts about the shotgun's hit damage being wonky or bullets flying off to magical places.

https://youtu.be/6VV5Ahn95Is

Using the video again as an example,
At 1:15 he totally misses the shot, bad aim, I get that.

But look REALLY closely at 0:55 when he shoots the first shot just as the guy opens the window, I even put it in slow motion. The fact that not a single pellet hit in that instance is messed up. I don't see or hear the pellets hitting the wall either, so where do they go?
That means the spread was tight enough for all the pellets to fit through the window, but not a single pellet hit it's target?????

Now jump ahead to 1:30, he shoots that man in the Ass and the dude just runs away????

Then the second shot at 1:43, I literally don't know where his bullets go. That should have at least been a double kill with the two of them both dying. The pellets don't hit the ground, I don't see/hear them hitting the fence, like what?!?!

One of the Reddit posts talking about shotguns after the PC nerf:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HuntShowdown/comments/j2bgcv/shotguns_are_too_nerfed/

Their biggest problem is that's they are unreliable. I can shoot a dude thrice with Specter and not kill a guy 5 meters in front of me, yet I can get oneshoted at the same distance by Romero handcannon

They've been made extremely unreliable.

I've hit a hunter at about 5 meters 3-4 times with a Caldwell and he wouldn't drop many times. My hunting partners as well.

Specter is even worse. You can shoot a hunter point blank range 2-3 times with him casually dropping you with a pistol or a knife.

2 days ago I've killed a guy with a Spectre with a knife and he did 5-8 HP damage at me at point blank range. A nagant pistol would do more, even if it was an arm shot.

JaguarLeading
Shotguns are overated since any gun will do the job at the same ranges.

pillbinge
Yes, you've really identified the problem, huh.

^ Main problems. What I'm saying is, if the spread, accuracy and distance is going to be that awful, counter balance it with knockback OR increase the damage so at that range a hit is at least a kill. I'd even be okay if the range was decreased but the spread was made tighter for close quarters combat so that hits were more reliable.

Then an easy counter is just to create distance.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Durendal:

But look REALLY closely at 0:55 when he shoots the first shot just as the guy opens the window, I even put it in slow motion. The fact that not a single pellet hit in that instance is messed up. I don't see or hear the pellets hitting the wall either, so where do they go?
That means the spread was tight enough for all the pellets to fit through the window, but not a single pellet hit it's target?????

At 0:55, he's using slugs.

I even told you he was using slugs in my post above.

GTFO with this nonsense. You're not looking critically at your own evidence, and you're not even reading your responses except to be offended that people don't agree with you.

Wasted effort.

[Durendal]

A video of a guy showing himself getting hit by a shotty and just swording an entire team to death. Jump to 3:17:

https://youtu.be/InHk-_OirTI


https://youtu.be/6FiRlZ2eOxw


More videos. I'm mostly posting this stuff so the devs will take a look at it and will eventually balance it out in some way. A lot of players are talking about range and aim, but they are missing the point that the weapon is close range, slow to fire, and has horrible spread. Most people just use handguns. This is why I say there needs to be balance with the range-spread-damage ratio.

[Durendal]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter:

Originally posted by Durendal:

But look REALLY closely at 0:55 when he shoots the first shot just as the guy opens the window, I even put it in slow motion. The fact that not a single pellet hit in that instance is messed up. I don't see or hear the pellets hitting the wall either, so where do they go?
That means the spread was tight enough for all the pellets to fit through the window, but not a single pellet hit it's target?????

At 0:55, he's using slugs.

I even told you he was using slugs in my post above.

GTFO with this nonsense. You're not looking critically at your own evidence, and you're not even reading your responses except to be offended that people don't agree with you.

Wasted effort.

Nah, I'll just keep posting vids and other forums until the devs look into it. As I said, it isn't an isolated event. Also, you're taking this too seriously. I'm giving feedback to the devs that the shotguns at close range are not working as intended. They will eventually fix it because you are in the minority when it comes to people's thought about the current state of shotguns.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Durendal:

Nah, I'll just keep posting vids and other forums until the devs look into it. As I said, it isn't an isolated event. Also, you're taking this too seriously. I'm giving feedback to the devs that the shotguns at close range are not working as intended. They will eventually fix it because you are in the minority when it comes to people's thought about the current state of shotguns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)

I just showed you your evidence proved the opposite of what you're claiming, and you're just doubling down on the notion that somehow you're helping.

Sure, keep up the good work. Shotguns totally busted... you were never wrong. It was my mistake for ever putting more effort in to your argument than you did. Have a good one.

[Durendal]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter:

Originally posted by Durendal:

What did you contribute though??? This isn't sarcasm, this is a real question.

You literally contributed nothing. You didn't share videos, stats, nothing about updates or changes that were made, nothing about the devs and why the devs chose to make the changes, you just said the guy used slugs and didn't have good aim, which doesn't actually fix the overall problem that multiple forums are talking about.

The only person who truly contributed was GRU-Vy by actually providing real information.

I even provided the videos about how the spread works which is why I suggested the spread needs to be tighter if they aren't going to include knockback or bring back bleed.

And I don't see how that link is relevant when you didn't offer suggestions for fixing the shotguns other than saying "Just don't use them". Again, GRU-Vy was the only one that actually contributed.

Take this post:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/594650/discussions/8/3087760096573640977/

More people say it is more effective to use a knife or sword than to use the Spectre Compact, and even with that last video I showed, the guy killed three people on the stairs with a sword WHILE getting shot by a shotgun. That is problematic.

The three on the stairs wouldn't have died though if it had caused bleed or at least knocked him back or slowed him down.

I legit now run a Nagant Officer carbine with the Legendary Calvary sword as my two weapons because at close range the sword is far more effective at taking out groups of players!