Poison Bomb

[DarkKrieg]

Let's talk about this item for a moment.

It's a very situational item, and I'm sure it's not as popular as grenades or dynamite, but at the same time, it's power on a downed player is simply too much.

Even before the choke bomb, when a teammate was burning you could still put them out or go for the full revive, even in the middle of a firefight.

With the poison bomb, even if you wipe out the enemy team instantly, your teammate is on the ground for a full 5 minutes.

This is a little broken. 5 minutes is a VERY long time in video games, and especially this game.

If there was some sort of counterplay, like an antidote shot that lasted after death, then it wouldn't be so bad.

As it is now, if there's a poison bomb on your buddy, you're just stuck there for 5 minutes no matter what happens. This is boring and and bad design.

3 minutes would be plenty of time for the poisoning team to re-position and try to get a shot on the remaining player(s) or do whatever it is they need to do.

5 minutes just seems incredibly excessive without any way to counter it.

Thoughts?

[DarkKrieg]

You seem to be so focused on my intelligence or game knowledge that you keep missing the point that I'm trying to make.

Having an item in the game that nullifies an already niche item is simply poor, boring design.

I'm trying to make it so that poison ISN'T super niche. Most people don't take poison weapons specifically because it's not as useful, or like you said, an anti-dote shot counters it completely.

This is not good design. Poison weapons should be just as prevalent as fire and items that cause bleeding.

Leaving it the way it is keeps it as a very specific and niche item. What's the point of having something in the game that only a handful of people are going to use.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to tweak poison so that it was a viable choice?

Countering one badly designed mechanic with another doesn't make it ok.

[Raptros]

DarkKrieg님이 먼저 게시:

You seem to be so focused on my intelligence or game knowledge that you keep missing the point that I'm trying to make.

Having an item in the game that nullifies an already niche item is simply poor, boring design.

I'm trying to make it so that poison ISN'T super niche. Most people don't take poison weapons specifically because it's not as useful, or like you said, an anti-dote shot counters it completely.

This is not good design. Poison weapons should be just as prevalent as fire and items that cause bleeding.

Leaving it the way it is keeps it as a very specific and niche item. What's the point of having something in the game that only a handful of people are going to use.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to tweak poison so that it was a viable choice?

Countering one badly designed mechanic with another doesn't make it ok.

The REASON why it's "poor design" NOW is because of what CRYTEK did to this game.

Hunt was SUPPOSED to be imbalanced, but in a manner that COULD be effectively dealt with. Here's what I mean:

Hunt was designed around a concept of decision making, rationing your supplies, and risk taking. You bought your gear and went into the match, knowing full well that anyone could bring anything. You wanted to get your moneys worth from your gear, but also didn't want to lose it. It was a balancing act. If someone brought poison, and you didn't bring a shot, you had to either risk it, or bail. If you ran out ammo, health, or anything you'd have to choose to risk it or bail. If you ran into a Avtomat and didn't want to lose your gear, you'd have to CHOOSE to risk it or bail.

Money was hard to come by, consumables were CONSUMED and not refillable, and everything was SLOW PACED.

The reason why poison bombs feel unbalanced now is because they ARE, but Crytek has made a point of evening Hunts playing field and trying to make it as balanced as possible, which isn't particularly possible with Hunts foundation without a total and complete overhaul

TL;DR

Hunt was NOT MADE to be EVEN or FAIR. Crytek has tried to retroactively make it fair and it's NOT WORKING. If you want Hunt to be fair and balanced you're going to have to

GUT THE GAME and build it back up from the GROUND, which Crytek doesn't seem to be willing to do.

I've been shouting this from the rooftops ever since 0.2 but nobody seems to get it.
Hunt CANNOT EFFECTIVELY be changed the way Crytek is trying to change it without completely REBUILDING IT.

[-}Element{- SilentHiller]

DarkKrieg님이 먼저 게시:

You seem to be so focused on my intelligence or game knowledge that you keep missing the point that I'm trying to make.

Having an item in the game that nullifies an already niche item is simply poor, boring design.

I'm trying to make it so that poison ISN'T super niche. Most people don't take poison weapons specifically because it's not as useful, or like you said, an anti-dote shot counters it completely.

This is not good design. Poison weapons should be just as prevalent as fire and items that cause bleeding.

Leaving it the way it is keeps it as a very specific and niche item. What's the point of having something in the game that only a handful of people are going to use.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to tweak poison so that it was a viable choice?

Countering one badly designed mechanic with another doesn't make it ok.

But it's not. The devs and the playerbase made it clear they don't want complicated difficult systems, so within that exact design parameters, the poison bomb is fine. The reason poison isn't as prevalent as fire and bleeding items is because it's still largely WEAKER than those other two. Even at a slower rate, fire permanently removes someone from the game and has multipurpose use in attacks like triggering barrels or not having a fuse to cook when throwing. Where concertina comes in is it applies bleeds and slow. All poison does is create area denial and poison damage, ALL of which is nullified by an anti shot. You're legitimately arguing to NERF the weakest consumables with this thread, which is why I keep poking at your intelligence and lack of total knowledge of the game. The only way poison becomes viable is by buffing it, and you've already made it clear in this thread you want it nerfed by buffing fire, which is already largely considered mandatory in kits to disperse it. As poison stands, it's in a fine spot, as it's counter requires the person with the shot to give up 1-3 slots if they don't have strong anti unlocked, at which point it's still a consumable slot that they have to give up to counter it. Throwing it on a downed enemy just magnifies your advantage and punishes them for dying. The reason poison remains so niche, is because fire and explosives remain by and large the best consumables. This comes down to their utility and damage output. The only possible way to make poison compete with those is by either upping it's damage output, or removing it's ability to damage it's owner entirely, otherwise all you're doing is buffing the other two while still leaving poison to be irrelevant

[Raptros]

-}Element{- SilentHiller님이 먼저 게시:

DarkKrieg님이 먼저 게시:

You seem to be so focused on my intelligence or game knowledge that you keep missing the point that I'm trying to make.

Having an item in the game that nullifies an already niche item is simply poor, boring design.

I'm trying to make it so that poison ISN'T super niche. Most people don't take poison weapons specifically because it's not as useful, or like you said, an anti-dote shot counters it completely.

This is not good design. Poison weapons should be just as prevalent as fire and items that cause bleeding.

Leaving it the way it is keeps it as a very specific and niche item. What's the point of having something in the game that only a handful of people are going to use.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to tweak poison so that it was a viable choice?

Countering one badly designed mechanic with another doesn't make it ok.

But it's not. The devs and the playerbase made it clear they don't want complicated difficult systems, so within that exact design parameters, the poison bomb is fine. The reason poison isn't as prevalent as fire and bleeding items is because it's still largely WEAKER than those other two. Even at a slower rate, fire permanently removes someone from the game and has multipurpose use in attacks like triggering barrels or not having a fuse to cook when throwing. Where concertina comes in is it applies bleeds and slow. All poison does is create area denial and poison damage, ALL of which is nullified by an anti shot. You're legitimately arguing to NERF the weakest consumables with this thread, which is why I keep poking at your intelligence and lack of total knowledge of the game. The only way poison becomes viable is by buffing it, and you've already made it clear in this thread you want it nerfed by buffing fire, which is already largely considered mandatory in kits to disperse it. As poison stands, it's in a fine spot, as it's counter requires the person with the shot to give up 1-3 slots if they don't have strong anti unlocked, at which point it's still a consumable slot that they have to give up to counter it. Throwing it on a downed enemy just magnifies your advantage and punishes them for dying. The reason poison remains so niche, is because fire and explosives remain by and large the best consumables. This comes down to their utility and damage output. The only possible way to make poison compete with those is by either upping it's damage output, or removing it's ability to damage it's owner entirely, otherwise all you're doing is buffing the other two while still leaving poison to be irrelevant

This is also a good explanation that I didn't even mention.

When you nerf or buff something, you're not only affecting the item, you're indirectly affecting EVERY OTHER counterpart to said item, in this case, other throwables.

Nerfing poison will only increase the effectiveness of other items, simply because poison is less of, or not an option to consider at all.

[DarkKrieg]

I really think you cherry pick what you read from people's statements just so you can argue with a couple of sentences.

I didn't say I want to nerf poison. I want the entire mechanic to be reworked so that it isn't passed over by fire and bleeding.

I want it to be just as viable so that people actually need to think about taking an antidote shot to counter a poison wielding player, not just so they can avoid a 5 minute downtime.

Don't you think it would be more interesting if there was more interaction from poison?

The fire thing was just an example of one route they could take. It's the kind of thinking that needs to happen in a game with choices.

Right now the choice is "Do I want to wait 5 minutes if someone has a poison bomb or not." That does not make for good gameplay.

Hives, hive bombs, the spider, poison crossbow, none of these things are any kind of threat whatsoever, and no one takes an antidote shot because of them.

This is the biggest issue of all. The ONLY reason to take an antidote shot is to avoid that 5 minute downtime if someone throws it on you or your partner's body.

That's it. An item exists solely to prevent a situation that shouldn't exist in the first place. This is what you are defending.


I'm trying to say that we need to rework poison so that people DO take hive bombs, or poison crossbows. So that people ARE afraid of getting poisoned by hives or the spider.

Right now the deadliest thing with poison is a meathead slug because the poison attracts the meathead.

THIS is good gameplay design. Being poisoned near a meathead causes another effect which forces you to interact with the world.

We need more of this style of interaction. Not just "take an antidote shot or not take one"

[-}Element{- SilentHiller]

DarkKrieg님이 먼저 게시:

I really think you cherry pick what you read from people's statements just so you can argue with a couple of sentences.

I didn't say I want to nerf poison. I want the entire mechanic to be reworked so that it isn't passed over by fire and bleeding.

I want it to be just as viable so that people actually need to think about taking an antidote shot to counter a poison wielding player, not just so they can avoid a 5 minute downtime.

Don't you think it would be more interesting if there was more interaction from poison?

The fire thing was just an example of one route they could take. It's the kind of thinking that needs to happen in a game with choices.

Right now the choice is "Do I want to wait 5 minutes if someone has a poison bomb or not." That does not make for good gameplay.

Hives, hive bombs, the spider, poison crossbow, none of these things are any kind of threat whatsoever, and no one takes an antidote shot because of them.

This is the biggest issue of all. The ONLY reason to take an antidote shot is to avoid that 5 minute downtime if someone throws it on you or your partner's body.

That's it. An item exists solely to prevent a situation that shouldn't exist in the first place. This is what you are defending.


I'm trying to say that we need to rework poison so that people DO take hive bombs, or poison crossbows. So that people ARE afraid of getting poisoned by hives or the spider.

Right now the deadliest thing with poison is a meathead slug because the poison attracts the meathead.

THIS is good gameplay design. Being poisoned near a meathead causes another effect which forces you to interact with the world.

We need more of this style of interaction. Not just "take an antidote shot or not take one"

And you can't viably rework it, fire just simply has too much utility as a damage dealer and player remover unless you want to give poison that same secondary utility. People actually do take anti + stam for speedrunning spoder + extract in more intelligent levels of play, not to mention people also pop a strong anti at the start of the round to avoid poison effects like you mentioned.

[Raptros]

The fact that anti-venom shots last the whole round is another thing that throws the balance out of whack.

It honestly sounds like something someone said in a meeting and they just said screw it, go with that.

[-}Element{- SilentHiller]

Raptros님이 먼저 게시:

The fact that anti-venom shots last the whole round is another thing that throws the balance out of whack.

It honestly sounds like something someone said in a meeting and they just said screw it, go with that.

Sounds like the whole of 1.0 tbh

[ClownyBoo]

Poison bombs better not get nerfed. I make it a point literally every game to pop and antidote shot. No hive damage is amazing, not having to run from spider and just beating her down in a couple of seconds like the butcher is amazing. NOT BEING BOMBED BY POISON IS AMAZING.

The antidote shot has WAY more use than a lot of people think. And the poison bomb deserves its lock down potential. I cant count the amount of times i didnt bring a poison bomb and i kept downing the same people over and over because they fell behind cover and got insta picked up which draws fights out anabsurd amount of time and wastes all of your meds. Or blocking off an escape and forcing campers to focus a single point of entry (which i know they've undoubtably have trapped to all hell) and surprising them with dusters to the back of the head when i sprint out of a poison bomb to dab them having taken no damage.

Poison hand crossbow has been and still is poop unless you happen to rock the 24 shot/double handcross bow poison bolt loadout.

Poison is a unique type of playstyle which quite frankly i feel as though they should even expand on. I wouldnt mind a poison tripmine or beartrap coated in a toxin it would be awesome.

Forgot to add this: i can pluck clues without meatheads trying to diddle me because leeches cant bite you.

[ClownyBoo]

-}Element{- SilentHiller님이 먼저 게시:

Raptros님이 먼저 게시:

The fact that anti-venom shots last the whole round is another thing that throws the balance out of whack.

It honestly sounds like something someone said in a meeting and they just said screw it, go with that.

Sounds like the whole of 1.0 tbh

it was an hour even before 1.0 so not sure what you mean.

[Barath]

spooky boi님이 먼저 게시:

Poison hand crossbow has been and still is poop unless you happen to rock the 24 shot/double handcross bow poison bolt loadout.

I like the poison stuff, but didnt manage yet to find a good loadout that includes the poison-bow. Care to explain the double-poison-xbow-loadout?

[ClownyBoo]

H4rl3k1n님이 먼저 게시:

spooky boi님이 먼저 게시:

Poison hand crossbow has been and still is poop unless you happen to rock the 24 shot/double handcross bow poison bolt loadout.

I like the poison stuff, but didnt manage yet to find a good loadout that includes the poison-bow. Care to explain the double-poison-xbow-loadout?

the damage drop off really isnt that noticeable and the poison crossy swaps extremely fast. so you can almost instantly two tap people with it for an extremely quick kill.. i could be wrong but from my personal experience it seems like it has damn near perfect accuracy when pulling out too

[WrathOfBong(BongRipsForJesus)]

DarkKrieg님이 먼저 게시:

-}Element{- SilentHiller님이 먼저 게시:

You're utterly terrible at balance, because you don't stop to think why the poison items got buffed to begin with, and instead QQ about them being a good alternative to fire.

Absolutely right. Poison was useless and it got a buff. But that doesn't mean it was a good buff. It's gone from useless to broken.

5 minutes of area denial is absolutely insane. Nothing in this game lasts for 5 minutes. It's like taking a hammer to a TV to try and fix it.

"Whelp, no one uses poison, better make it last forever" "Well then you have to make antidote shots last forever" "yeah go for it"

That's not good development. Burning and Bleeding both have multiple ways that a player can react.

Poison is just antidote shot or no antidote shot. Boring, unintelligent design.

nothing in this game last for 5 minutes? Strange pretty sure concertina bomb never goes away, and without dynamite will take most likely longer than the poison clearing away, because u were fighting while the poison was on top of them burning away at it's 5 minutes

[notSure]

i like it how it is

[DarkKrieg]

wrathofbong(BongRipsForJesus)님이 먼저 게시:

DarkKrieg님이 먼저 게시:

Absolutely right. Poison was useless and it got a buff. But that doesn't mean it was a good buff. It's gone from useless to broken.

5 minutes of area denial is absolutely insane. Nothing in this game lasts for 5 minutes. It's like taking a hammer to a TV to try and fix it.

"Whelp, no one uses poison, better make it last forever" "Well then you have to make antidote shots last forever" "yeah go for it"

That's not good development. Burning and Bleeding both have multiple ways that a player can react.

Poison is just antidote shot or no antidote shot. Boring, unintelligent design.

nothing in this game last for 5 minutes? Strange pretty sure concertina bomb never goes away, and without dynamite will take most likely longer than the poison clearing away, because u were fighting while the poison was on top of them burning away at it's 5 minutes

Concertina bombs can be completely actively destroyed by melee in about 30 seconds.

So no, there is nothing that lasts for 5 minutes