Do you need the original Beastmen DLC for the Silence and the Fury DLC?

[bacon_is_sweet]

Question is above. I'm asking because I don't care for Beastmen but am a big Lizard fan. However, I'd hate to get the S/F DLC and only be able to use have the units available?

I'm I right to assume that if I get the new DLC I'll get all the Beastmen for Mortal Empires and just not have access to the leaders/special units from the original DLC? I could live with that.

[Elitewrecker PT]

You'll have the original roster + whatever new units they get + the new lord. But you won't have access to the original 3 lords (and possibly a 4th if they do the same like with Drycha but I doubt it since they already had 3) in Mortal Empires.

[bacon_is_sweet]

Thanks! Doesn't sound too bad, and I could give Beastmen a try if I wanted to.

[Funky Monk]

Similar to twisted and twilight, you will have the original roster and the new units. However you won't be able to play the other 3 LL's and the possible 4'th Bonus Lord (if he will be made)

[Donut Steel]

It's a WH2 DLC, not a WH1 + Call of The Beastmen DLC, therefore is not 'DLC for DLC'.

This is good in that it doesn't tie anyone wanting to get The Silence & The Fury into owning anything other than WH2.

This is bad in that anyone who had prior expectations that owning 'The Beastmen' DLC would give them 'The Beastmen', was not getting what they paid-in. Now the goal-post has moved, just like it did with The Hunter & The Beast giving access to the Empire roster(without WH1) and The Twisted & The Twilight giving access to Wood Elves(without WH1 nor 'The Wood Elves' DLC for it).

It's easy to say that the good here outweighs the bad, but only if you're looking at what we immediately gain(gain that only comes by spending money first) and don't consider the implications of the principle.

That principle was once 'buy race pack, get that race' and 'buy full-game, get core races', and it's eroded by the blurring of it for short-term convenience.

CA have always re-used assets, but usually with some significant value-added proposition that makes it a quid pro quo.

This goes a lot further and moves things further in their favour, not the consumers.

[zues2552]

Originally posted by Lex Looper:

It's a WH2 DLC, not a WH1 + Call of The Beastmen DLC, therefore is not 'DLC for DLC'.

This is good in that it doesn't tie anyone wanting to get The Silence & The Fury into owning anything other than WH2.

This is bad in that anyone who had prior expectations that owning 'The Beastmen' DLC would give them 'The Beastmen', was not getting what they paid-in. Now the goal-post has moved, just like it did with The Hunter & The Beast giving access to the Empire roster(without WH1) and The Twisted & The Twilight giving access to Wood Elves(without WH1 nor 'The Wood Elves' DLC for it).

It's easy to say that the good here outweighs the bad, but only if you're looking at what we immediately gain(gain that only comes by spending money first) and don't consider the implications of the principle.

That principle was once 'buy race pack, get that race' and 'buy full-game, get core races', and it's eroded by the blurring of it for short-term convenience.

CA have always re-used assets, but usually with some significant value-added proposition that makes it a quid pro quo.

This goes a lot further and moves things further in their favour, not the consumers.

I dont really get your point. If you dont own the original DLCs or WH1 you are getting almost no content compared to those that own the complete package.

[Funky Monk]

Originally posted by zues2552:

Originally posted by Lex Looper:

It's a WH2 DLC, not a WH1 + Call of The Beastmen DLC, therefore is not 'DLC for DLC'.

This is good in that it doesn't tie anyone wanting to get The Silence & The Fury into owning anything other than WH2.

This is bad in that anyone who had prior expectations that owning 'The Beastmen' DLC would give them 'The Beastmen', was not getting what they paid-in. Now the goal-post has moved, just like it did with The Hunter & The Beast giving access to the Empire roster(without WH1) and The Twisted & The Twilight giving access to Wood Elves(without WH1 nor 'The Wood Elves' DLC for it).

It's easy to say that the good here outweighs the bad, but only if you're looking at what we immediately gain(gain that only comes by spending money first) and don't consider the implications of the principle.

That principle was once 'buy race pack, get that race' and 'buy full-game, get core races', and it's eroded by the blurring of it for short-term convenience.

CA have always re-used assets, but usually with some significant value-added proposition that makes it a quid pro quo.

This goes a lot further and moves things further in their favour, not the consumers.

I dont really get your point. If you dont own the original DLCs or WH1 you are getting almost no content compared to those that own the complete package.

He is probably pointing out how the Beastmen roster was incomplete when the DLC launched, and its still remains like this to this day. DLC races should be launched with their complete rosters, and if they get more DLC’s then they should be extra treats.

[Donut Steel]

You are getting the entire roster, except for the legendary lords that already exist and were sold as part of the initial package.

This means anyone buying Call of The Beastmen before was not getting 'The Beastmen'.

If we consider 'The Beastmen' to be a category, then Taurox is categorically not in it, but he is a Beastmen legendary lord and can recruit almost the same units as the others, just as Markus Wulfheart could recruit almost every Empire unit and the Sisters of Twilight almost every Wood Elf unit.

What this does is retro-actively make Call of The Beastmen just 2(or 3) legendary lords: Kazrak and Malagor(+Morghur), plus the Eye for an Eye mini-campaign that's currently only playable in WH1. It is these legendary lord characters which we actually bought, not 'The Beastmen'; these characters simply give us access to the roster. This means there isn't really a meaningful difference between 'a race pack' and 'a lord pack': they're just different configurations of product packages selling us legendary lords.

It's further complicated by Morghur, who was an 'FLC' included with the update when Realm of The Wood Elves was released, as he is the main antagonist for the Season of Revelation mini-campaign for that DLC.

Morghur is only playable for those who own Call of The Beastmen, despite being a 'FLC'. At the time, this reinforced the notion that 'buying the Beastmen' meant 'buying the Beastmen', because you only got Morghur if you 'bought the Beastmen', even in Mortal Empires for WH2.

[zues2552]

Originally posted by FunkyMonk:

Originally posted by zues2552:

I dont really get your point. If you dont own the original DLCs or WH1 you are getting almost no content compared to those that own the complete package.

He is probably pointing out how the Beastmen roster was incomplete when the DLC launched, and its still remains like this to this day. DLC races should be launched with their complete rosters, and if they get more DLC’s then they should be extra treats.

If you go based on the Games workshop books beastmen are only missing 2 units, plus mabey the special gors that are specific to each chaos god, but thats it. I dont consider that incomplete especially considering how many units get added to every race as we go. Ill admit if the new DLC comes anywhere close to doubling the number of units beastmen get then i will agree. But the fact is that beastmen just have less units to pick from. I think that when they first came out beastmen were okay, its only becasue they got ignored for so long that people forget that at launch they were as put together as the WE, and also easier to use.

[zues2552]

Originally posted by Lex Looper:

You are getting the entire roster, except for the legendary lords that already exist and were sold as part of the initial package.

This means anyone buying Call of The Beastmen before was not getting 'The Beastmen'.

If we consider 'The Beastmen' to be a category, then Taurox is categorically not in it, but he is a Beastmen legendary lord and can recruit almost the same units as the others, just as Markus Wulfheart could recruit almost every Empire unit and the Sisters of Twilight almost every Wood Elf unit.

What this does is retro-actively make Call of The Beastmen just 2(or 3) legendary lords: Kazrak and Malagor(+Morghur), plus the Eye for an Eye mini-campaign that's currently only playable in WH1. It is these legendary lord characters which we actually bought, not 'The Beastmen'; these characters simply give us access to the roster. This means there isn't really a meaningful difference between 'a race pack' and 'a lord pack': they're just different configurations of product packages selling us legendary lords.

It's further complicated by Morghur, who was an 'FLC' included with the update when Realm of The Wood Elves was released, as he is the main antagonist for the Season of Revelation mini-campaign for that DLC.

Morghur is only playable for those who own Call of The Beastmen, despite being a 'FLC'. At the time, this reinforced the notion that 'buying the Beastmen' meant 'buying the Beastmen', because you only got Morghur if you 'bought the Beastmen', even in Mortal Empires for WH2.

Who cares if you get the whole roster if you olny have one lord to play as? If you think your only buying lords and units whennyou purchase DLC your not understanding how the game works. Your actually buying 5 things; Lords, Units, Mechanics, Starting Location/Game setting, and finally replayability. People who think they are only buying Lords and units clearly have no concept of what goea into making a game like this. How exactly, if you dont mind my asking, are you supposed to make DLC for a race that was DLC? Are you saying that WE should have never come out till they were "done" or are you saying that Drycha and the Sisters should have been free? Why? Whay should they even bother making new factions at all if people are gunna complain about paying for them. Does anyone who buys a theatrical release movie get a director's cut for free? So your saying because the Star Wars trilogy was incomplete without Empire of Return, anyone who say a new hope should have been give a ticket to the other two?

[Donut Steel]

That touches on yet another issue that some have already spoken about but will get louder as more of WH3 is revealed.

That of Chaos Warriors and Beastmen being among the units that make up the mono-gods rosters, whilst their existing implementations remain woeful.

Having broken the link between 'buy race, get race', CA have given themselves freedom in terms of the unit rosters: they can put warriors and beasts in WH3 core races, because it's the legendary lords that have access to unit rosters and it's the legendary lords that are what we are actually buying. Who after all complained when Arkhan the Black had a few Vampire Counts units? Not even re-skinned ones, he just straight up had them.

There are pros as well as cons, but the pros depend a lot on CA not abusing the trust of players. Have they ever given us any reason to think they would abuse the trust of players?

[Donut Steel]

Originally posted by zues2552:

Originally posted by Lex Looper:

You are getting the entire roster, except for the legendary lords that already exist and were sold as part of the initial package.

This means anyone buying Call of The Beastmen before was not getting 'The Beastmen'.

If we consider 'The Beastmen' to be a category, then Taurox is categorically not in it, but he is a Beastmen legendary lord and can recruit almost the same units as the others, just as Markus Wulfheart could recruit almost every Empire unit and the Sisters of Twilight almost every Wood Elf unit.

What this does is retro-actively make Call of The Beastmen just 2(or 3) legendary lords: Kazrak and Malagor(+Morghur), plus the Eye for an Eye mini-campaign that's currently only playable in WH1. It is these legendary lord characters which we actually bought, not 'The Beastmen'; these characters simply give us access to the roster. This means there isn't really a meaningful difference between 'a race pack' and 'a lord pack': they're just different configurations of product packages selling us legendary lords.

It's further complicated by Morghur, who was an 'FLC' included with the update when Realm of The Wood Elves was released, as he is the main antagonist for the Season of Revelation mini-campaign for that DLC.

Morghur is only playable for those who own Call of The Beastmen, despite being a 'FLC'. At the time, this reinforced the notion that 'buying the Beastmen' meant 'buying the Beastmen', because you only got Morghur if you 'bought the Beastmen', even in Mortal Empires for WH2.

Who cares if you get the whole roster if you olny have one lord to play as? If you think your only buying lords and units whennyou purchase DLC your not understanding how the game works. Your actually buying 5 things; Lords, Units, Mechanics, Starting Location/Game setting, and finally replayability. People who think they are only buying Lords and units clearly have no concept of what goea into making a game like this. How exactly, if you dont mind my asking, are you supposed to make DLC for a race that was DLC? Are you saying that WE should have never come out till they were "done" or are you saying that Drycha and the Sisters should have been free? Why? Whay should they even bother making new factions at all if people are gunna complain about paying for them. Does anyone who buys a theatrical release movie get a director's cut for free? So your saying because the Star Wars trilogy was incomplete without Empire of Return, anyone who say a new hope should have been give a ticket to the other two?

I'm guessing all those questions are rhetorical and you don't actually care about the answers, seeing as they all seem to lead to a point far away from anything I've actually said.

[bacon_is_sweet]

Originally posted by Lex Looper:

You are getting the entire roster, except for the legendary lords that already exist and were sold as part of the initial package.

This means anyone buying Call of The Beastmen before was not getting 'The Beastmen'.

If we consider 'The Beastmen' to be a category, then Taurox is categorically not in it, but he is a Beastmen legendary lord and can recruit almost the same units as the others, just as Markus Wulfheart could recruit almost every Empire unit and the Sisters of Twilight almost every Wood Elf unit.

What this does is retro-actively make Call of The Beastmen just 2(or 3) legendary lords: Kazrak and Malagor(+Morghur), plus the Eye for an Eye mini-campaign that's currently only playable in WH1. It is these legendary lord characters which we actually bought, not 'The Beastmen'; these characters simply give us access to the roster. This means there isn't really a meaningful difference between 'a race pack' and 'a lord pack': they're just different configurations of product packages selling us legendary lords.

It's further complicated by Morghur, who was an 'FLC' included with the update when Realm of The Wood Elves was released, as he is the main antagonist for the Season of Revelation mini-campaign for that DLC.

Morghur is only playable for those who own Call of The Beastmen, despite being a 'FLC'. At the time, this reinforced the notion that 'buying the Beastmen' meant 'buying the Beastmen', because you only got Morghur if you 'bought the Beastmen', even in Mortal Empires for WH2.

Thanks for the replies and I get your frustration here. This situation is good for someone like me who never had to basically "double dip". I'm going to get mostly the whole roster from a arguably "secondary" DLC.

The thing to keep in mind with something like this is though, how far removed was this DLC from the original Beastmen DLC? How about the Wood Elf DLC? How old are they? I haven't really Googled it but I'm imagining around 2016? One could make the decent argument that it doesn't really matter for those races as their content is "old" now. Those that really cared bought it some time ago. However, I think a good counter argument would be for those who bought the old DLC to play through those races recently, and then this whole new DLC comes out. That would be a bit lame.

I'm not too sure how else you would do this though? Like in my situation. Would I be screwed out of half of this DLC? Would I have to purchase the Beastmen DLC and than this one also to get the full effect. Because if that was the case I wouldn't buy this one, and I imagine it would be the same for others. I wonder if that's CA's consideration? Some would say "well sure you have to buy the Beastmen DLC". But again, is that lost sales?

[Funky Monk]

Originally posted by zues2552:

Originally posted by FunkyMonk:

He is probably pointing out how the Beastmen roster was incomplete when the DLC launched, and its still remains like this to this day. DLC races should be launched with their complete rosters, and if they get more DLC’s then they should be extra treats.

If you go based on the Games workshop books beastmen are only missing 2 units, plus mabey the special gors that are specific to each chaos god, but thats it. I dont consider that incomplete especially considering how many units get added to every race as we go. Ill admit if the new DLC comes anywhere close to doubling the number of units beastmen get then i will agree. But the fact is that beastmen just have less units to pick from. I think that when they first came out beastmen were okay, its only becasue they got ignored for so long that people forget that at launch they were as put together as the WE, and also easier to use.

There are some lord Variants as well, and the missing units are quite important for the Beastmen.

[Donut Steel]

Originally posted by bacon_is_sweet:

Originally posted by Lex Looper:

You are getting the entire roster, except for the legendary lords that already exist and were sold as part of the initial package.

This means anyone buying Call of The Beastmen before was not getting 'The Beastmen'.

If we consider 'The Beastmen' to be a category, then Taurox is categorically not in it, but he is a Beastmen legendary lord and can recruit almost the same units as the others, just as Markus Wulfheart could recruit almost every Empire unit and the Sisters of Twilight almost every Wood Elf unit.

What this does is retro-actively make Call of The Beastmen just 2(or 3) legendary lords: Kazrak and Malagor(+Morghur), plus the Eye for an Eye mini-campaign that's currently only playable in WH1. It is these legendary lord characters which we actually bought, not 'The Beastmen'; these characters simply give us access to the roster. This means there isn't really a meaningful difference between 'a race pack' and 'a lord pack': they're just different configurations of product packages selling us legendary lords.

It's further complicated by Morghur, who was an 'FLC' included with the update when Realm of The Wood Elves was released, as he is the main antagonist for the Season of Revelation mini-campaign for that DLC.

Morghur is only playable for those who own Call of The Beastmen, despite being a 'FLC'. At the time, this reinforced the notion that 'buying the Beastmen' meant 'buying the Beastmen', because you only got Morghur if you 'bought the Beastmen', even in Mortal Empires for WH2.

Thanks for the replies and I get your frustration here. This situation is good for someone like me who never had to basically "double dip". I'm going to get mostly the whole roster from a arguably "secondary" DLC.

The thing to keep in mind with something like this is though, how far removed was this DLC from the original Beastmen DLC? How about the Wood Elf DLC? How old are they? I haven't really Googled it but I'm imagining around 2016? One could make the decent argument that it doesn't really matter for those races as their content is "old" now. Those that really cared bought it some time ago. However, I think a good counter argument would be for those who bought the old DLC to play through those races recently, and then this whole new DLC comes out. That would be a bit lame.

I'm not too sure how else you would do this though? Like in my situation. Would I be screwed out of half of this DLC? Would I have to purchase the Beastmen DLC and than this one also to get the full effect. Because if that was the case I wouldn't buy this one, and I imagine it would be the same for others. I wonder if that's CA's consideration? Some would say "well sure you have to buy the Beastmen DLC". But again, is that lost sales?

As I said, there are pros as well as cons. The problem there is that the pros for players last only as long as CA wants whilst the pros for CA could be permanent. For now the pros for us are immediate and solve a long-term problem with a short-term solution. The whole reason why 'DLC for DLC' was ever an issue to begin with goes like this:

For CA, it's not worth it to sell a product where the people able to buy it is limited to those who already own a previous one. In their Chaos Warriors dev-post from 2015, Mike Simpson explained CA's outlook with DLC as being 'it sells best in the first six months, then player interest rapidly drops', which is why CA started doing day-one DLC as pre-orders. WH2 was the first(and so far only) game that went against this notion: every DLC release has coincided in a spike in active players and WH2 hit it's highest peak in 2020, almost three years after release. CA obviously hoped Three Kingdoms would repeat this, but it didn't; you don't plan to make eight DLCs in two years(though the last one was cancelled) that you don't think will sell a lot. So in keeping with that, if selling DLC content is risky, then selling something requiring a base-game AND another piece of DLC is even riskier.

For players, the selling-point(IMO) has clearly been the Warhammer trilogy as a whole and the expectation of a massive combined campaign by the end of it: individual pieces of content make it up, but the whole is greater than the sum. These players, the category that I'm in, get a good thing out of this workaround where races introduced in older games can potentially be 'finished' during the lifetime support window that remains for the whole WH trilogy, by making them DLC for the later titles rather than(like FLC Morghur was) content intended only for owners of said DLC.

So it's a win-win?

Ask 3K fans, who had plenty of criticism of CA's choices in what to make DLC, but were ignored and when the inevitable happened, CA simply pulled the plug. People voted with their wallets, and CA still didn't listen. I am now for the first-time hesitant to buy-in to WH3, because there's no guarantee that what players hoped for with the WH trilogy will actually happen. CA's workaround for 'DLC for DLC' puts too much power in their hands and whilst they do respond to outrage, they've done this in a way to minimise outrage and it's so far working. At the same time, voluminous but fair criticism(and voting with their wallets), didn't influence them one bit and save 3K from the axe.

[aquotla]

You think too much, dude.