It's official: Cathay is a mary sue faction. Worse still, the fate of Nippon.

[Dean Winchester]

So.... lots of people have been telling me to wait until more Cathay lore is revealed before calling them out for being this noble-light, shiny, perfect, harmonious faction that is at odds with the rest of the grim warhammer setting. I was told... "It's only a 3 minute trailer!". I figured, sure. I could be wrong. I'll wait.

Well, the wait is up and their lore has been revealed.
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-grand-cathay-lore/

"It covers a landmass larger than the Empire, Bretonnia, and many other nations combined. Vast cities pockmark the landscape, with huge populations watched over by the ruling Dragons – the Celestial Dragon Emperor, his consort the Moon Empress, and their children."

"To the North lies the Great Bastion, constructed thousands of years past by the Dragon Emperor himself and imbued with much of his magic. A humongous wall that has stood for aeons against the ever-present threat of Chaos."

"Had the Emperor and Moon Empress wished it, sheer force of numbers and powerful magics and artillery could have dominated much of the land to the west, but they have been content to rule and defend their already formidable nation."

"Harmony is the driving force behind Cathayan society. The teachings of the Dragon Emperor are such that everyone must work in concert with themselves and the land for the betterment of all and to find their natural place. This drives everything, from their magic lores of Yin and Yang to how the Dragons govern their people. Far from tyrants or aloof aristocrats, the Dragons act as teachers and wardens for the populace. They see little point in creating an imbalance between mortals and themselves when the ever-present threat of Chaos will happily destroy them all."

"Similarly, the Dragons are not treated as gods, nor do they demand worship. They are immensely powerful beings, rulers by magical and physical right rather than mysterious divinity. The iconography of the Dragons is common-place and ever-present throughout society, but because they are very real, very present, and very powerful rulers."

"In war, the Harmony of the Cathayan way of life is ever-present, their forces acting in concert to lay waste to enemies with devastating precision and calm."

"Miao Ying is arguably the most powerful Dragon alive save her mother and father. Immense power and immense responsibility land on her shoulders, and she can seem cold and aloof in comparison to her siblings."

"The history of Grand Cathay is longer than even Chaos, originating more than 5,000 years previous, when the Celestial Dragon Emperor ruled the land before the coming of the Old Ones."

"It has been attacked on innumerable occasions, damaged, and even sometimes breached, but still the Great Bastion stands as powerful a vanguard against Chaos as ever, constantly maintained and garrisoned by massive armies."

"For outsiders, it is a realm of infinite riches and pleasures unknown, seemingly immune from the endless terrors that prowl the outside world."

TLDR: CATHAY NUMBER ONE
Cathay is more powerfuler, better, ancienter, than not only the other human races and basically all of the other races out there as well. I don't want to say I told you so, but I told you so.


But what about lands aside from Cathay?
"In WARHAMMER III, our focus is on two main areas: Northern Cathay with the Storm Dragon Miao Ying and the Great Bastion, and Western Cathay with the Iron Dragon Zhao Ming and the Ivory Road."
Is it just me, or does that sound like a killing blow for Ind, Nippon, and Khuresh?

[ArchAnge1LT]

Except it does replace things. Things like established power and early inception of things in lore. No one would be mad at this if they did not make it mary sue style. If the writers would just write compelling story of why and how they got powerful, not how they have been powerful the whole time.

And difference from say Lizardmen or any other power races is that they have been dwindling in power ever since. They were powerful once, but they crumble with time as it goes on. And they cant do anything about it.

No such weaknesses are given to Cathay. Their lore is just rising or at least straight line.

[I|III||I|||II|IIII|]

Mactalon lähetti viestin:

You're starting off from a bit of a deficit there - There is no defined spot for who is the most preeminent spellcaster in the world but Teclis is a far cry from it. Several demons, Slann and characters like Nagash vastly outweigh his abilities, and there are characters like Thanquol who could arguably be on par with him briefly after eating enough warpstone and not exploding. Edit - Ariel's probably in there too, plus Morathi/Malekith sit in their own area as well. Let's just say there's a lot.

What lore are you referencing? Did I miss a section of the lore or something? Have I not gotten that far in the story? What Daemons are you speaking of? He brushed away the daemon Malekith summoned in ulthuan with a mere whisper. Malekith fears Teclis and even forced Malekith to banish himself into the realms of chaos during their duel in the battle of ulthuan. And Teclis was that of an adolescent at the time. Before he even went on to teach the humans of magic he had already beaten Malekith in a duel.

Mactalon lähetti viestin:

From what we've seen of Cathay's arcane knowledge, it's probably only going to be on par with what the High Elves do, but applied in different ways. Edit - just talking about their general magic, the Emperor is obviously something different again, but that's not unusual either.

you've seen nothing as have all of us seen nothing off their arcane knowledge. All we know is what their power is what the lore states. Anything more is pure speculation and wishful thinking.

Mactalon lähetti viestin:

Presumably only one of them could be correct in reality but the books naturally contradict each other because each one wants the reader to be interested in playing/collecting/painting the army.

That's my entire point. The contradictions make me lose complete interest in the lore. Cathay amplifies this.

[The Tear Collector]

SteadilyPhysical lähetti viestin:

You're right. I don't care. I think it might be a fun faction to play, I wouldn't want them removed. At least not initially. But their cringe lore and clear pandering to CCP regulators should not be overlooked.

I agree that the article presents Cathay as a really powerful faction. But I also get the notion, that all their internal harmony comes at the price of strict and direct execution of those (Cathayans and especially foreigners) who are not on board with the vision of their great "omnipotent" leader, who just sits out of reach for everybody and does nothing.
I also get the impression that they have their hands full of keeping all that is "Chaos" and "not Cathayan" out of their lands and that there were times when they were struggling to accomplish that.
The Iron Dragon, who sits at the most important trade route to the rest of the old world has supposedly "lost his mind" and all his siblings are carefully watching his actions, potentially not hesitating to execute him as well, if he gets too influeced by the western way of life.

edit: Just had a change of heart about the pandering. Considering this, and that their true strength and power absolutely comes from maintaining their "way of life" and keeping everything else out, I can totally get it. However I also see the criticism of putting something like this in a Warhammer game, where all of this, in the end is futile anyway?
Nevertheless I could find it intriguing to see how high the price truly is to keep that thing rolling and how it is handled in the game.
I actually kinda like it tbh. I kind of find it fitting for Warhammer, that there's a faction that gets away with that :D
I'm changing my mind by the minute though...

[Zane87]

When SteadyPhysical criticizes something it's usually a pretty good sign. You convinced me, Cathay will be great.

[Donut Steel]

Philosopher-poster: "This writing has issues due to this, this and this, for each of the following reasons..."

Brand-ambassador: "But it mentions that, that and that, which counter-balances out this, this and this!"

Philosopher-poster: "So what? The way this and that are done is what matters. That only exists to support this, as does that and this, as well as this along with that. It makes the problems worse. If this needs that in order to happen, it's too contrived. They've obviously added that in order to justify this, rather than write this to fit naturally in with what's already there. The issues with this, this and this are not addressed at all by pointing to that, that and that."

Brand-ambassador: "Well Cathay is under constant threat..."

Philosopher-poster: "Directly contradicted by the post saying they could have been deeply involved with the rest of the world long ago, and *they chose not to*, they weren't impaired by anything in a practical sense. That's the problem: anything 'in a practical sense' is made meaningless."

Brand-ambassador: (Says some nonsense about how the existence of other bad-writing from Games Workshop and CA makes it okay in this case and in fact, it's always going to be okay)

Philosopher-poster: "This is actually you admitting the point in full and without caveats: you're just stating that you personally are fine with bad-writing. It's a matter of taste, so why are you objecting to people who criticise it?"

Brand-ambassador: (Mental gymnastics ad infinitum to NOT concede to that)

[Dean Winchester]

Zane87 lähetti viestin:

When SteadyPhysical criticizes something it's usually a pretty good sign. You convinced me, Cathay will be great.

Define great. Great in terms of gameplay? Not likely. They just look like dwarfs, empire, and tomb kings rolled into one. Great in terms of lore? Definitely not.

[Gorwe]

SteadilyPhysical lähetti viestin:

Zane87 lähetti viestin:

When SteadyPhysical criticizes something it's usually a pretty good sign. You convinced me, Cathay will be great.

Define great. Great in terms of gameplay? Not likely. They just look like dwarfs, empire, and tomb kings rolled into one. Great in terms of lore? Definitely not.

They will be your favorite faction. ;)

[Sovereign246]

Gorwe lähetti viestin:

SteadilyPhysical lähetti viestin:

Define great. Great in terms of gameplay? Not likely. They just look like dwarfs, empire, and tomb kings rolled into one. Great in terms of lore? Definitely not.

They will be your favorite faction. ;)

After all this complaining about pretty much every facet of their existence that would be very funny,

[Captainbeastfeast (Rat-ee-JiK)]

have a nice slowwww clap for your (lack of) originality.

So you're not going to mention the High elves?
As if the warhammer fantasy lore is actual classic literature that needs to be preserved....bwahahahaa!

[Gorwe]

predator246 lähetti viestin:

Gorwe lähetti viestin:

They will be your favorite faction. ;)

After all this complaining about pretty much every facet of their existence that would be very funny,

That's exactly why I expect it to turn out that way. He'll give them abnormal amount of attention ; hell, he already has and continues to.

[KnightwhosaysNi]

Total Warhammer in general tends to be less grimdark than tabletop, so this is not really that unusual. If you looked at the High Elves just based on their Total War depiction, you wouldn't the get sense of how elitist, defeatist, and xenophobic their culture can actually get compared to what's in the tabletop lore.
Also, you guys know that this is supposed to be hype material right? Like the goal is to make the faction look good and sound fun to play and you want to have big fun empire to run.

[NixAhmose]

Bengis lähetti viestin:

Philosopher-poster: "This writing has issues due to this, this and this, for each of the following reasons..."

Brand-ambassador: "But it mentions that, that and that, which counter-balances out this, this and this!"

Which is true.

Bengis lähetti viestin:

Philosopher-poster: "So what? The way this and that are done is what matters. That only exists to support this, as does that and this, as well as this along with that. It makes the problems worse. If this needs that in order to happen, it's too contrived. They've obviously added that in order to justify this, rather than write this to fit naturally in with what's already there. The issues with this, this and this are not addressed at all by pointing to that, that and that."

Except Cathay was always there to begin with and a lot of the justifications fall right in line with pre-established lore.
And if you're going to play the "this lore just exist to justify ____" card to explain why we should all hate a faction then you're going to end up hating a lot of factions since you can make the same argument about almost everyone's lore. Elves only split up into three separate races to justify them not taking over the world already. Magic is only has massive risks to it in order to justify why not everyone is a mage. The only reason the Skaven or Chaos aren't willing to cooperate with each other more is because their combine force would just conquer everything.
Like no ♥♥♥♥ lore is designed and molded in such a way to allow for interesting things to happen. Even George R. R. Martin, a man famous for creating brutally realistic functioning fantasy worlds, admits that he bends lore and characters in order to push the narrative towards an interesting direction. So long as the lore lines up well who cares if the motivation for the lore being that way is to create an interesting faction. The lore is meant to support the game and current story, not the other way around.

Bengis lähetti viestin:

Philosopher-poster: "Directly contradicted by the post saying they could have been deeply involved with the rest of the world long ago, and *they chose not to*, they weren't impaired by anything in a practical sense. That's the problem: anything 'in a practical sense' is made meaningless."

That's not a contradiction though. Just because they were involved in the world in the past doesn't mean that A) they were in as strong as a position as they are now to hold that territory, or B) cared enough to take over the rest of the world. Hell, the Dragon Emperor and Moon Empress care so little about expanding their territory that they literally left it for over FOUR HUNDRED YEARS, during which their children started a civil war against each other that resulted in massive amounts of death and destruction, and the Emperor only returned when some King from the south managed to take over his throne.
Now whether this is because they view Cathay as nothing more than a meat-shield for their capital or because they have such an over-inflated sense of enlightenment that territorial power is kinda irrelevant, the point is that the Dragon Emperor does not care about expanding Cathay and barely cares about defending it himself unless its absolutely necessary. That isn't a contradiction or bad writing, that's a character flaw that has resulted in the continual deaths of millions, if not billions, of his loyal subjects.

[Dean Winchester]

Gorwe lähetti viestin:

SteadilyPhysical lähetti viestin:

Define great. Great in terms of gameplay? Not likely. They just look like dwarfs, empire, and tomb kings rolled into one. Great in terms of lore? Definitely not.

They will be your favorite faction. ;)

Not likely. My top 3 races are Daemons of Chaos, Warriors of Chaos, and Skaven. Do any of them have any resemblance to the playstyles of Dwarfs, Empire, and Tomb Kings? Not really. So, I'm not likely to enjoy Cathay. I will enjoy Ogres, Monogods, and Daemons of Chaos of course.

[Jack Deth]

Some of that does come off very eye roll-esque (the uber cool and strong part about the daughter and her parents along with the totally benevolent ruler part) but again, this is lore meant for Total War Warhammer and not WFB (unless GW decides to bring back Fantasy with a 9th edition, Old World being similar to Horus Heresy which means it isn't lore accurate as much as it's a "what if").

The "huh" moment I have is the part where it states...

//"The history of Grand Cathay is longer than even Chaos, originating more than 5,000 years previous, when the Celestial Dragon Emperor ruled the land before the coming of the Old Ones."

As...far as I know the Old Ones were responsible for the creation of humans (I'm probably misunderstanding the language) so technically Cathay wouldn't even have been a thought. Unless they mean the lands that would be Cathay were ruled over, in which it would present an interesting Ship of Theseus discussion.

//"Had the Emperor and Moon Empress wished it, sheer force of numbers and powerful magics and artillery could have dominated much of the land to the west, but they have been content to rule and defend their already formidable nation."

I understand this part as a throw away line most other races get along the lines of "If the orcs ever got their ♥♥♥♥ together the WAAAGH!!! would be unstoppable" or "if the skaven ever stopped infighting" or even "If the elves had reined in their arrogance and the dwarfs been willing to dare instead/etc..."

[Free Luigi M.]

I personally greatly dislike Cathay. Probably because I am a decades-long Warhammer fan and Cathay has never been a tabletop faction, nor really important to the setting.
It gives me the same vibes T'au give me in 40K: a fundamentally out-of-place faction which is singularly too much into direct contrast with the rest of the setting. Like they lifted ideas straight out of a manga and chucked them into Warhammer in an attempt to attract a certain kind of player.
They do get obliterated by Skaven, Chaos and Greenskins in the End Times though.