Why don't they just remove zombies and skeletons?

[Kalvix]

I know what you're thinking, that would mean no units for the undead until you get grave guard so you've be defenceless, but lets face it, that's not so different to using skeletons anyway. Seriously you need to have 4-5x the numbers to beat the empires basic unit which you won't be doing early on anyway so why not just remove them entirely. It would also have the benefit of making people get armies of direwolves and bats which fair 100x better as they are about as strong just WAY more mobile than skeletons.

Ok rant over... but seriously skeletons suck so much, starting VC is about the most boring start as you basically rely on the 1 monster unit you get until you finally get to grave guard, and even then unless they've been buffed recently you basically have something that can finally be an equal match for basic empire units but cost a lot more and take more time to recruit.

[halogamb]

Because Skeletons aren't meant to make up the entirety of your army after very early on. Utilize raise dead once you have big armies to have more high tier units in your army alongside a few vampires.at cheap cost and in an instant. Then support your main army with a stack of chaff and it's easy winnings.

[Kalvix]

I get that, it's just early game they are SO annoying especially if 1 of the empire factions decides to harass you as you can't catch their outriders so combined with crossbow men you end up slaughtered as you struggle to even 1v1 a ranged unit with skeletons.

Trying to start Manfred again reached a sad point where I own MOST of Sylvania but sadly one of my towns got taken by the empire so now I need to just accept it as lost as I can't fight the empire till I get a couple stacks of grave guard up and running.

[halogamb]

Originally posted by Kalvix:

I get that, it's just early game they are SO annoying especially if 1 of the empire factions decides to harass you as you can't catch their outriders so combined with crossbow men you end up slaughtered as you struggle to even 1v1 a ranged unit with skeletons.

Trying to start Manfred again reached a sad point where I own MOST of Sylvania but sadly one of my towns got taken by the empire so now I need to just accept it as lost as I can't fight the empire till I get a couple stacks of grave guard up and running.

If you own most of sylvania and you don't have access to some high tier units and vampires you're doing something wrong. Even if you lose battles, the corpse piles can be utilized immediately by your next lord. I just did a Vlad campaign recently and it was so easy keeping this in mind.

[Kalvix]

It only takes a few turns to get control of all of Sylvania, much less time than it takes to upgrade to the high tier units. I'm building an army of grave guard but it takes 2 turns a unit to build so it takes time and I need a second army thus reducing my spending power as without a full stack of skeletons I can't even try to persuade the AI to not invade me and destroy everything

[A.Pot]

Well someone does not know how to use these units. Like the Tomb Kings versions, they are meant to be nothing more than chaff you throw at the enemy. They take the brunt of an attack while supported by spells and then other units like cavalry move about to flank and hit the side or rear.

[Kalvix]

Problem is early on you have nothing BUT chaff so you can't do much, then by mid-game grave guard become your chaff anyway with ease making these kinda not needed.

[A.Pot]

Originally posted by Kalvix:

Problem is early on you have nothing BUT chaff so you can't do much, then by mid-game grave guard become your chaff anyway with ease making these kinda not needed.

Ahem, Dire Wolves, Ghouls, Fell Bats, your Lords are all available from a level one town with the right buildings. Like I said, their job is to be cheap and disposable units who are meant to soak up the damage while the actual damage dealers attack from another angle.

Even in the late game, they can work well with Grave Guard to soak up the damage or serve as cheap replacements who do not need a battle site to even be recruited in the first place.

[RCMidas]

Also that Skeletons and Zombies can soak up damage MUCH better than Dire Wolves or Fell Bats. Plus they are cheaper - unbelievably cheaper with the right research - and the skeletons even come with shields.

[Tenhys]

Originally posted by Kalvix:

I know what you're thinking, that would mean no units for the undead until you get grave guard so you've be defenceless, but lets face it, that's not so different to using skeletons anyway. Seriously you need to have 4-5x the numbers to beat the empires basic unit which you won't be doing early on anyway so why not just remove them entirely. It would also have the benefit of making people get armies of direwolves and bats which fair 100x better as they are about as strong just WAY more mobile than skeletons.

Ok rant over... but seriously skeletons suck so much, starting VC is about the most boring start as you basically rely on the 1 monster unit you get until you finally get to grave guard, and even then unless they've been buffed recently you basically have something that can finally be an equal match for basic empire units but cost a lot more and take more time to recruit.

I litteraly am currently in the middle of a Vampire Count campaign on Very hard difficulty and i currently am winning with pretty much nothing but Skeletons, AS GHORST MAIN.

Really, it's not hard : start a VC campaign, rush the "-100% upkeep cost reduction" research for Skeleton warriors, recruit lots of lords, fill their ranks with Skeletons, proceed on overflowing the ennemy. (Also, as Ghorst, pick "Von Carstein" bloodline first with your blood kiss ressource = +40% replenishment rate factionwide.) All you have to do, then, is merely "Loot and Occupy" everything to grab as much cash as possible and not bothering about the settlements rebelling (only uppgrading Sylvania.) Then you send your agents gaining intel, commiting actions to gain levels & skills, spreading corruption and, once you secured enough cash & recruited enough armies, unleash the undead tide.

SImple as that.

[Kaaz]

Skeletons arent meant to do much on their own, thats why you have absolute beasts of units like vargheists that shred but need something to hold for them

[Myth Samael]

I am sorry but i agree with the others here. Tbf the fact since there rework you have a tech that makes them upkeep free there is no reason to not have a trash stack of them following your main army.

[Kalvix]

I'm playing an overhaul mod which takes away the tech to make them free, it just feels like VC are either OP or useless based on just a few minor changes. Removing the free skeletons means even though its -50% they aren't worth getting as they are that bad, but that with the healing nerf so you can't blob kinda makes them very reliant on sitting back for ages till you get to the late game monsters to carry you.

I mean ye I'm not claiming their late game doesn't work, I'm just annoyed at how they are one of the worst for having to sit back and do nothing early on and being very reliant on how the other factions behave.

[Ashley]

Yeah some factions don't have very strong early game. Most of the undead factions don't early have wonderful early games. But once they get going they're hard to be stopped.

[Kalvix]

Originally posted by Ugandad Commando:

Yeah some factions don't have very strong early game. Most of the undead factions don't early have wonderful early games. But once they get going they're hard to be stopped.

Problem is they are hated by everybody nearby to such a silly degree. Starting as VC is always annoying as the second you fight 1 elector count the rest try to kill you as well, and even if it's them who starts a war everybody else will pile on as well. Ends up with you needing to take JUST Sylvania and then upgrade all your defences and have armies all along the border then just hold out until you get high end units.

Well that or you hope you get lucky with dwarves and empire so they are either to busy fighting other people or at least the dwarves don't try to murder you as well so you can expand a bit without instantly losing land somewhere else to mass invasions.

[Threetails]

Lol man you’re apparently playing with a mod that pretty much invalidates most of the utility of the unit. Free skeletons aren’t really very op at all imo. They’re critical early for sure, and if you use them correctly you can win the campaign early. But complaining they’re too weak because you used a mod to make them weaker is just kinda...maybe try the base game before you demand sweeping changes?

EDIT: actually I guess it kinda depends on the difficulty as to whether they’re op or not.