dwarf army comp? what do you guys like to use early mid and late game

[eduardogr]

something

[Karina]

Central eredeti hozzászólása:

Esteban Failsmore eredeti hozzászólása:

Maybe you right, maybe you not. Im not convinced. I will come back later and tell if bugman army is good or not. Legend rated them as S tier unit, closest thing to a dwarf doomstack.

In any case i cant use any of those units right now. And even if i could - they would bankrupt my economy. First thing i do at turn 1 is disband hammerers because im not paying 450 gold upkeep for them lol.

legend rated them like that and still said they where maybe a 7/10 doomstack. than he hardly ever proceeds to use them as a doomstack because a regular army with ironbreakers, thunderers and organ guns is still better generally speaking and much more versatile.
Maybe if you actually listen to what he has to say about it in more than one video instead of just looking at what he puts up on the board than you would know this.

as i said many times before, dawi strength comes from a combination of melee that can hold the line and good ranged capabilities.

if they where truly such a doomstack than you would have seen plenty of videos about them, instead on yt the search "warhammer rangers doomstack" returns a grand total of 2 videos on rangers, one is called "powerful rangers", the second is called "rating a bugman ranger not-quite-there-yet stack" you will notice that neither video has the word doomstack in it, and both of them relied on stacking engineers for reducing reload speed, something which they no longer do.

Fine, i guess you're right then. Its an s tier unit (for belegar at least) but its not doomstackable on its own.

[Fryskar]

Central eredeti hozzászólása:

Esteban Failsmore eredeti hozzászólása:

Maybe you right, maybe you not. Im not convinced. I will come back later and tell if bugman army is good or not. Legend rated them as S tier unit, closest thing to a dwarf doomstack.

In any case i cant use any of those units right now. And even if i could - they would bankrupt my economy. First thing i do at turn 1 is disband hammerers because im not paying 450 gold upkeep for them lol.

legend rated them like that and still said they where maybe a 7/10 doomstack. than he hardly ever proceeds to use them as a doomstack because a regular army with ironbreakers, thunderers and organ guns is still better generally speaking and much more versatile.
Maybe if you actually listen to what he has to say about it in more than one video instead of just looking at what he puts up on the board than you would know this.

as i said many times before, dawi strength comes from a combination of melee that can hold the line and good ranged capabilities.

if they where truly such a doomstack than you would have seen plenty of videos about them, instead on yt the search "warhammer rangers doomstack" returns a grand total of 2 videos on rangers, one is called "powerful rangers", the second is called "rating a bugman ranger not-quite-there-yet stack" you will notice that neither video has the word doomstack in it, and both of them relied on stacking engineers for reducing reload speed, something which they no longer do.

Imo a bugmans doomstack is a bit akin to LSG, but stronger.
You also can get them quiet a few buffs from tech.

They can fight pretty much everything the ai throws at you, but are far from the mosz dangerous stack.

They are quiet durable and fairly quick, if you play as Ungrim, barly any inf can catch them.

[Karina]

Fryskar eredeti hozzászólása:

Central eredeti hozzászólása:

legend rated them like that and still said they where maybe a 7/10 doomstack. than he hardly ever proceeds to use them as a doomstack because a regular army with ironbreakers, thunderers and organ guns is still better generally speaking and much more versatile.
Maybe if you actually listen to what he has to say about it in more than one video instead of just looking at what he puts up on the board than you would know this.

as i said many times before, dawi strength comes from a combination of melee that can hold the line and good ranged capabilities.

if they where truly such a doomstack than you would have seen plenty of videos about them, instead on yt the search "warhammer rangers doomstack" returns a grand total of 2 videos on rangers, one is called "powerful rangers", the second is called "rating a bugman ranger not-quite-there-yet stack" you will notice that neither video has the word doomstack in it, and both of them relied on stacking engineers for reducing reload speed, something which they no longer do.

Imo a bugmans doomstack is a bit akin to LSG, but stronger.
You also can get them quiet a few buffs from tech.

They can fight pretty much everything the ai throws at you, but are far from the mosz dangerous stack.

They are quiet durable and fairly quick, if you play as Ungrim, barly any inf can catch them.

You can reach same speed with tech and master engineer(s) buff. Stacking speed too much is wasteful cause there is hardcap on how fast a unit can run due to animation, even though speed stat can go above that. I belive its roughly +50% over base speed. So in theory rangers can run at 45 speed, maybe 50.

[Testikles]

MercyTheMad is currently running a Belegar Legendary campaign with a full ranger stack in his main army. Not to prove anything, just if someone's interested how it could turn out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSdI2RnuP7w&ab_channel=MercytheMad

[Karina]

Rindenberg eredeti hozzászólása:

MercyTheMad is currently running a Belegar Legendary campaign with a full ranger stack in his main army. Not to prove anything, just if someone's interested how it could turn out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSdI2RnuP7w&ab_channel=MercytheMad

Awesome, i will check it out later.

[Fryskar]

Esteban Failsmore eredeti hozzászólása:

Fryskar eredeti hozzászólása:

Imo a bugmans doomstack is a bit akin to LSG, but stronger.
You also can get them quiet a few buffs from tech.

They can fight pretty much everything the ai throws at you, but are far from the mosz dangerous stack.

They are quiet durable and fairly quick, if you play as Ungrim, barly any inf can catch them.

You can reach same speed with tech and master engineer(s) buff. Stacking speed too much is wasteful cause there is hardcap on how fast a unit can run due to animation, even though speed stat can go above that. I belive its roughly +50% over base speed. So in theory rangers can run at 45 speed, maybe 50.

Engi and 1/2 tech is only for ranged inf.

[Central]

Rindenberg eredeti hozzászólása:

MercyTheMad is currently running a Belegar Legendary campaign with a full ranger stack in his main army. Not to prove anything, just if someone's interested how it could turn out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSdI2RnuP7w&ab_channel=MercytheMad

thank you for posting that, what i can see here is that he is still using a front line of hero's rather than using the rangers as a front line. he also loses his entire stack of rangers against 2 armies of goblins, an army composition which a "normal" dawi army would at least managed to deal with a bit better. rangers are best used for ranged warfare, they just dont do great in melee.
this is a perfect example of why rangers still need a front line of other units. they preform decently when dealing ranged dmg but shatter in melee.

[Karina]

Central eredeti hozzászólása:

Rindenberg eredeti hozzászólása:

MercyTheMad is currently running a Belegar Legendary campaign with a full ranger stack in his main army. Not to prove anything, just if someone's interested how it could turn out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSdI2RnuP7w&ab_channel=MercytheMad

thank you for posting that, what i can see here is that he is still using a front line of hero's rather than using the rangers as a front line. he also loses his entire stack of rangers against 2 armies of goblins, an army composition which a "normal" dawi army would at least managed to deal with a bit better. rangers are best used for ranged warfare, they just dont do great in melee.
this is a perfect example of why rangers still need a front line of other units. they preform decently when dealing ranged dmg but shatter in melee.

Its not a frontline issue but silver shields issue. I can confirm that dealing with goblins, one of the most basic units, is pain because they have silver shields. I recruited full ranger spam army and went up against one full army of goblins with 2 black orcs + goblin warlord goon squad. Its either "do you want your heroes to get rekt?" or "do you want your rangers to get rekt?" situation. In this scenario someone gotta eat ♥♥♥♥, might as well be dwarf warriors cause their handle ♥♥♥♥ eating better then others. Also artillery is needed to get rid of swarms of goblins.

I settled on this army comp - 4 warriors, 9 rangers, 3 grudgetrowers. Rest are lord + ancestor heroes.

[Central]

Esteban Failsmore eredeti hozzászólása:

Its not a frontline issue but silver shields issue. I can confirm that dealing with goblins, one of the most basic units, is pain because they have silver shields. I recruited full ranger spam army and went up against one full army of goblins with 2 black orcs + goblin warlord goon squad. Its either "do you want your heroes to get rekt?" or "do you want your rangers to get rekt?" situation. In this scenario someone gotta eat ♥♥♥♥, might as well be dwarf warriors cause their handle ♥♥♥♥ eating better then others. Also artillery is needed to get rid of swarms of goblins.

I settled on this army comp - 4 warriors, 9 rangers, 3 grudgetrowers. Rest are lord + ancestor heroes.

hen others. Also artillery is needed to get rid of swarms of goblins. [/quote]
im a bit confused here, does this mean you have come around to my way of thinking? you are basically saying here that dwarf warriors would have done a better job.

edit: didnt see you edit your post, that looks like an army comp that at least can take some punishment to me :) it allows your ranged units to keep shooting to the max.

[Karina]

Central eredeti hozzászólása:

Esteban Failsmore eredeti hozzászólása:

Its not a frontline issue but silver shields issue. I can confirm that dealing with goblins, one of the most basic units, is pain because they have silver shields. I recruited full ranger spam army and went up against one full army of goblins with 2 black orcs + goblin warlord goon squad. Its either "do you want your heroes to get rekt?" or "do you want your rangers to get rekt?" situation. In this scenario someone gotta eat ♥♥♥♥, might as well be dwarf warriors cause their handle ♥♥♥♥ eating better then others. Also artillery is needed to get rid of swarms of goblins.

im a bit confused here, does this mean you have come around to my way of thinking? you are basically saying here that dwarf warriors would have done a better job.

For armies with abundant silver shields - yes. Shooting at goblins are a waste of ammunition. They are small, dont hold much balance of power and have very high missile block. For any other race i would probably spammed rangers.

When i played as Gelt i tried get rid of goblins with magic and artillery. Shooting crossbows at them was lowest priority possible.

[Fryskar]

Central eredeti hozzászólása:

Rindenberg eredeti hozzászólása:

MercyTheMad is currently running a Belegar Legendary campaign with a full ranger stack in his main army. Not to prove anything, just if someone's interested how it could turn out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSdI2RnuP7w&ab_channel=MercytheMad

thank you for posting that, what i can see here is that he is still using a front line of hero's rather than using the rangers as a front line. he also loses his entire stack of rangers against 2 armies of goblins, an army composition which a "normal" dawi army would at least managed to deal with a bit better. rangers are best used for ranged warfare, they just dont do great in melee.
this is a perfect example of why rangers still need a front line of other units. they preform decently when dealing ranged dmg but shatter in melee.

Rangers a lot more so than bugmans.
Also tech and other buffs are a question.

[grognardgary]

Early 3 or 4 Grudge throwed three or four bottle lobbers and the rest crossbows. Kill as much of the blob as you can before it gets close enough to be dangerous.

[Central]

Esteban Failsmore eredeti hozzászólása:

For armies with abundant silver shields - yes. Shooting at goblins are a waste of ammunition. They are small, dont hold much balance of power and have very high missile block. For any other race i would probably spammed rangers.

When i played as Gelt i tried get rid of goblins with magic and artillery. Shooting crossbows at them was lowest priority possible.

With the low armor piercing dmg that they have any race with high armor will give you the same kind of problems. there are also other races with silver shields. there are still more units / lords than list below, but ill name a few.
dark elves:
Dreadlord (sword and shield)
Master
dreadspears
darkshards (shields) (ai likes to spam these)

high elves:
Prince
silverin guards
lothern sea guard (shields)
(ai loves to spam both silverin and lothern with shields)

brettonia:
men at arms (shields)
spearman at arms (shields)

Tomb kings:
Tomb king
Tomb prince
skeleton warriors
skeleton spearman
Tomb guard (both normal + halberts)

Vampire counts:
wight king
grave guards

Warriors of chaos:
Chaos lord
sigvald
archeon
exalted hero
aspiring champions
chaos warriors
chosen

Wood elves:
eternal guard (shields)
Wild riders (shield)

granted not all of these will be spammed by the ai, but dark elves love spamming darkshards with shields, high elves love spamming silverin and lothern with shields, most tomb king infantry will have silver shields, and good luck against the chaos invasion.
and, as said before, this is not counting any high armor units which you might struggle against because of low armor piercing attacks.

Fryskar eredeti hozzászólása:

Rangers a lot more so than bugmans.
Also tech and other buffs are a question.

even with all tech and lord buffs bugman rangers will only get :
6400 health
40 armor
48 melee def
29 melee attack
regeneration
it should be noted that this is only counting lord skills and tech, it does not count hero skills.

tech boosts their ranged attacks, it does not really boost their melee stats, they still need a front line of some sorts because they simply dont have the stats to survive hand to hand combat.

[Fryskar]

Central eredeti hozzászólása:

Fryskar eredeti hozzászólása:

Rangers a lot more so than bugmans.
Also tech and other buffs are a question.

even with all tech and lord buffs bugman rangers will only get :
6400 health
40 armor
48 melee def
29 melee attack
regeneration
it should be noted that this is only counting lord skills and tech, it does not count hero skills.

tech boosts their ranged attacks, it does not really boost their melee stats, they still need a front line of some sorts because they simply dont have the stats to survive hand to hand combat.

Bugmans start at
4.8k hp (large)
40 armor
24 MA
31WS
38MD
CDvL

Tech should push them by
+5MD Vanguard Profiancy
+5 Armor Interlocking shields
10% WS Master-Crafted Weapons
+5 Armor Master-Crafted Armor
Ranged buffs

Lords only add 15% missile resistance (besides ranged buffs), making them have almost silver shields.

Yes, bugmans can survive melee combat, not too long vs highest tier units, but most of them should be heavily damaged/dead before you engage in melee. Inf can't catch them besides skaven and some very few others unless supported by quicker units.
Ranged loses the combat in most cases, snipe makes them have quiet a range adventage.

In pvp, serval things could counter them, to bad the ai can't think of such tactics.

For holding, their low MA doesn't matter too much.

[Karina]

Making a slight detour to vampire lands. Need xp for lightning strike and im afraid to attack any greenskins - its like poking a hornet nest. I will screw over vampires and will be gone in a turn or two. What they gonna do? Underway stance towards me lol?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2841132311

Well, this army definatly works. Game gave me autoresolve pyrrhic victory here. Probably got carried hard by bugman beer barrel carriers (aoe healing, no limit) but i dont care - its me vs entire world full of greenskins. I feel like i would get a better result then pyrrhic victory even without them.