When is it 'too late'? When are you hopelessly outnumbered?

[Gnarl]

I've been playing Wurrzag in ME, on WH/WH, and Greenskins have always been ahead of Bloody Handz.

At turn 80, Dwarves got wiped out. They had confederated all the dwarves around too, so no more dwarves. By this time, all that was left of Greenskin factions were Bloody Handz, with 6 territories (only 1 province), Greenskins with 35 settlements, Crooked Moon with 12 settlements, and Crooked Moon Mutinous Gits with 3 settlements, and all of us were at peace with eachother.

All I did to help versus any Dwarves was chase Grombrindal away once, defeat Belegar Ironhammer open field, take the captial of Blood River Valley (I had to break the siege once), and take Karaz-a-Karak with a weak Belegar guarding it(only challenge of that was trespassing on Greenskin turf going there). So basically I did nothing versus Dwarves, and they got wiped.

It was just before this I got the quest for Wurrzag's item "Squiggly Beast" and it was to raze or sack 3 Greenskin settlements. I didnt' do it. 6 territories versus 35 settlements didn't sound right.

Empire got wiped out by turn 100 by Skarsnik and Grimgor and Vampires and Norsca, with Talabecland holding on a bit longer. Brets were devoured by Vampires and Wood Elves and Norsca and Greenskins a little later.

It's turn 137 now, and I wiped out Setra cause taking on Greenskins seemed too hard. I didn't help Greenskins at all since turn 80. They actually sent an army to help defeat one stack of Setra's army when I pushed for Khemri (I didn't even ask them too even though we're MIlitary Allies.) It's just Wurrzag and Grimgor now, and Greenskins have 61 settlements to my 19 (4 provinces).

Is it too late for me to take on Grimgor? Was it too late even before Dwarves fell?

Would you try to fight them? He's killing Vampires now. Can any AI beat him?

[Wh♂♂par]

Build a number armies, that you think suffices. Attack. Repeat step two until done.

[yuzhonglu]

It's doable. It'll just take a while. You'll need like 5 armies but the Ai is dumb at army management.

[Dr. Uncredible]

Hmm, how much does he like you?
What´s your economy like?
Does he have any enemies you can pick on?

If you can somehow secure an alliance with him everything he owns will count towards your victory, turning an insurmountable problem into a basically won campaign.

[Salty Nobody]

He counts toward your victory so you don't need to fight him. If you want him gone or are afraid he will betray you, and he won't confed (highly unlikely at this point unless you beat him into submission with your military, and he will be pissed you betrayed him so maybe no confed at all...) you most certainly can attack him.

The Vamps can hold their own against the Greenskins with help (massive financial aid to the Vamps, the Greenskin's own ally backstabbing them, etc.) but by themselves they will probably lose. After that the Greenskins will be in a position to dominate the map.

So right now is a good time to attack. I'm going to assume you have at least three field capable stacks. You will want to pick your initial targets carefully.

On the same turn that you (at least try to) have the Vamps (or someone else) pay you alot of money to join their war on the GS, I would suggest a simultanious attack on Mount Gunbad, Black Crag, and Karaz-a-Karak. Those three strategic capitals have high income resources and other benefits beyond just being heavily defended province capitals.

Mount Gunbad is what is going to keep most of the GS stacks fighting the Vamps from turning around and defending their territory. They have to go through the fortifications you upgraded and the stack you should have sitting there (fightiness permitting) first, and you should he able to stop them cold while the Vamps push their newfound advantage. If you end up at war with the Vamps as well this is also where you will hold them off In the mountains until the GS are dealt with.

Black Crag should be obvious, it has a gold mine and is your racial capital. Losing it should severely hamper the GS ability to wage war in the area and boost yours.

Karaz a Karak has a gem mine and is a spot where the GS can build up new stacks, take it and that entire province away from them and fortify so your army there can move on to other tasks.

If you have a fourth stack take Akendorf and then Barak Var, otherwise take them after the Silver Road province. This is to stop or at least slow down anything coming at you through Blackfire Pass or the former Border Prince lands.

After these objectives are complete move down and take all GS territory. You should have the income for more armies as you take more territory, and between them and the WAAAGHs it should be over quickly.

Focus on province capitals and their high level recruitment budings first so that the GS cannot raise good armies to stop you. Don't worry about rebellions or defending minor settlements, just fortify everything and let the minor settlements fend for themselves. Your first objective is to decapitate the GS ability to wage war in their Badlands territory, and after that you can focus on bringing order to your new greatly expanded territory. Let the GS and Vamps and maybe Chaos at that point kill each other in the mountains and former Empire lands until you are ready for your next push on them.

[TehOuchies]

If any AI kills him, It would be the Dark Elves, but I doubt that will happen. If/When Chaos spawns, as the GreenTide is in your campaign, the fungi will win against the corruption.(edit* this assumption is made that he does not act against the green skins or aid the vampires)

At that point, if you just want to fight them, picking your battles is the only way to go.

Since you said they are fighting vampires at the moment, I assume most of their armies are north of yours. So at that point, I would personally start out by creating a buffer zone by razing their settlements near yours. (not occupying, if their armies are far enough you could go for a sack then raze)

Because you razed and are at war with them, as long as you sent your armies back towards your land, they will recolonize on their way to you. When they do so, most of their army will get depleted. Attack now and wipe an army and capture the settlement. Depending on how many armies they have (and knowing the GreenTide spams armies, that may have not bought you much time at all) you can either recreate the raze buffer zone or try gaining ground on them.

[Cacomistle]

You're playing wurzhag. Get a stack of savage orc big uns and big un riders. Get the red skills that buff them. Regular greenskins will pretty much never have a stack able to beat that.

Now what you do is you open the war by taking black crag or wiping out a couple of major stacks. Wall off all your cities and have a decent stack defending them. Then you just sort of run through everything and wipe out several armies with wurzhag while your other army plays defensively. Once wurzhag's army levels up to level 7 units with the red tree buffs, its unkillable. Grimgor will never get anything that can beat it. From there its only about preventing backcaps and you'll eventually just destroy everything he has.

If you wait you'll also probably find time to attack where he's dealing with other factions.

Now this might be a difficult battle. Perhaps you won't have the skill to win it. But it is most definitely winnable.

And ofc theres always the option of just ally him and wipe out other factions. But thats the easy way out. I'd rather take over everything myself than have an ally win the campaign for me.

[RCMidas]

Easily doable. First thing is first. Capture all of the remaining Southlands. Go right down to the Temple of Skulls, Karak Zorn, Sudenberg, the Wizard Caliph's Palace, everything. Take the lot, secure it from rebellion, and station at least one stupidly powerful army down there that is built for taking on Chaos stacks.

Yup. Roundabout this point, Chaos should be spawning in, if it hasn't already. You might find that moving a couple of armies north to capture minor settlements among the Bretonnian, Empire, even Norsca lands will help get to the point where Archaon appears. Kill him, wipe the rest of the Chaos forces aimed at you (and bear in mind that when Archaon appears, four stacks of the Bjornling Norsca tribe will appear just south of Sartosa and north of Zandri, and head straight towards Khemri and Galbaraz).

Recapture anything you lost, resecure everything in any case, pull all your armies together again. You want at least one unit that has the Siege Attacker trait in each one (trolls, giants, arachnoroks, rock lobbas, doom divers, or a warboss on a wyvern). Station each army near to one of Grimgor's settlements. He should still be having a go at everyone else further up north. Now attack, all at once, with every army hitting a different settlement.

*DO NOT WARN HIM BEFOREHAND BY BREAKING TREATIES*

It doesn't matter if you become Unreliable. Just focus on annihilating Grimgor's actually-built-up infrastructure, especially targeting province capitols wherever possible, which means he'll be stuck with lower quality troops if he needs to recruit more. You should be able to take on most of the Badlands before Grimgor turns around, having been taken completely by surprise. Now here's the fun - send all of your Waaaghs after him first. They'll lose, but they'll soften him up good.

Now just keep smashing what is left of his armies and settlements. You ought to be absolutely rolling in money now, so you can afford to pump out several throwaway armies of mainly goblins just to hurl at the Vampire Counts and keep them occupied until your main forces arrive to finish what Grimgor started.

At this point you have effectively won. Mop up what remains of the Old World. Secure it, raze it, do what you like. I'd recommend avoiding using Underway movement to get around or near Athel Loren though - interception by one of the Wood Elf armies, even at this stage is really not ideal - and be prepared to suffer through quite a slog if you want to actually occupy Norsca or Athel Loren.

Lots of Savage Orc Big 'Un Boar Riderz are advised to smash through the archers of the latter, and be sure to play those fights manually. Autoresolve will cause unacceptable casualties. Always outnumber your opponents. If you've got a Waaagh helping out, let them charge in first and exhaust the enemy's vigor and ammunition. Standard procedure, actually, is what that should be.



tl;dr : Take over whatever remaining settlements exist to the South. Beat Archaon. Betray Grimgor by hitting as many of his settlements at once as you can.

Alternatively, go to the New World and just keep sacking everything until you can simply get him to confederate with you with a 250K+ cash incentive. Works better if you can confederate Skarsnik first. Having two Legendary Lords on your side will even the odds with Grimgor having Azhag already.

[Phaty]

The province sizes dont really matter it will come down to your armies.

simply using wurrzag along with another lord will be your best bet, using wurrzag lore magic and his buff for savage units is your key.

The spell to summon Gork will be great for causing fear and break formations in your enemy greenskin army while also using brain busta to weaken their heavy units. his direct dmg missle spell also can really dmg heros and lords if you level that up( a must to kill grimgor)

The savage orcs will be your meat wall, when in wurrags army they become very cheap along with increased dmg so making them act as your "basic" unit sending them in first to kill and themselves die. other units depend on the army you fight . For example a giant/trolls are good to back up your savage push, savage cav is always fantastic but know their armor is grody, or something like gaint spider/skirmisher cav. this army will ensure your first wave will deal nice dmg to your enemy greenskins and you can follow it up with your seconds lords reinforcements.
Your second lord should have more heavy units to support wurrzag, big uns/black orcs/trolls/cav/another giant even but dont shy away from a few orc boys to not only save u money but to renew your meat wall.
Another thing to help is using another orc shaman to use the same spells wurrzag has, know your winds of power will deplete way faster(Duh) but two foot of Gorks coming down at the same time can open up a wide area on a frontline to rush a giant or trolls into and this can cripple other greenskins.

sacking settlements for that money is also better then taking them sometimes and know that if you level up lords and heros enough an army can raid a region and almost cover their entire upkeep and take away public order.

In terms on confed you wont untill your at least double his size with more military power so you need to kill him or else he may eventually run out of enemies and turn on you when chaos is defeated. that being said the chaos event can cripple him but if they can cripple a empire sized grimgor you may not fair so well.

[lump0815]

Originally posted by Gnarl:

...
All I did to help versus any Dwarves was ... take the captial of Blood River Valley (I had to break the siege once), and take Karaz-a-Karak ...
So basically I did nothing versus Dwarves, and they got wiped.
...

Uhm... yeees..... Stripping ANY faction of it's capitol equals to it's downfall in this game. What you did there was nothing short to asking Greenskins to prosper.

On your 'question': If you're a good player, it doesn't matter how strong greenskins are by now; all you need to win is 2-3 armies for offense, 1-2 for defense. If however you're rather an 'average' player (=a polite way of saying "sucky"), you're better off keeping on playing Grimgor's lap-dog and focus your expansionist illusions on some lands far-off.

[Gnarl]

Wow! Lot of good suggestions! I thought it was over!

Originally posted by Dr. Uncredible:

Hmm, how much does he like you?
What´s your economy like?
Does he have any enemies you can pick on?

If you can somehow secure an alliance with him everything he owns will count towards your victory, turning an insurmountable problem into a basically won campaign.

His attitude toward me is 190.
My economy seems to depend on raiding if I build 3 good armies.
He actually made peace with VC, but he's still fighting like all other Vampires and Vampire Pirates.

I am military allies with him. My reliability though has gone to Very Low two times now, and went there at beginning. I don't know why. It's as if his Quest Battles made it go Very Low, or some Event did. I tried looking thru event logs but couldn't find anything. I don't raid or have treaties with anyone else. I have no idea why my reliability tanks. It tanked early game too, and that's why Grimgor gobbled up the other orc armies.

Originally posted by Tactician:

So right now is a good time to attack. I'm going to assume you have at least three field capable stacks. You will want to pick your initial targets carefully.

I lost my armies beating Setra, he threw so many stacks at me. I only had the two, then a final third for the final push.

My Income is 17000, and my one and 2 half armies cost 9,500. I actually have upkeep reduction on the one goblin army too.

I wish I read this post a long time ago, maybe I could have done better.

Originally posted by lump0815:

Uhm... yeees..... Stripping ANY faction of it's capitol equals to it's downfall in this game. What you did there was nothing short to asking Greenskins to prosper.

On your 'question': If you're a good player, it doesn't matter how strong greenskins are by now; all you need to win is 2-3 armies for offense, 1-2 for defense. If however you're rather an 'average' player (=a polite way of saying "sucky"), you're better off keeping on playing Grimgor's lap-dog and focus your expansionist illusions on some lands far-off.

Karaz-a-Karak was the 2nd to last settlement up, but yeah, Dwarves messed up somehow horrible.

I'm not so good a player. I kind of get Wurrzag's army of Savages, and win and survive with all units in 1v2s. But I am having trouble making second armies. I had a night goblin one basically, with Big Un and catapults. But I haven't had to defend versus anyone except Border Princes and Rebellions all game. I'm untested basically with other armies, and not sure how to manage fightiness with 2 other armies.

Hmm, Greenskins got beat up by the other Vampires pretty bad, he's actually #3 power now, even thought maintaining 61 settlements. He only has three armies south of Altdorf(4 to the north.) I probably could do something, but Silver Host is threatening me. Queek is still running around somewhere even though only 2 settlements. And Vampire Counts are #1 with only Greenskins between us, and they went peaceful for some reason.

Thanks for advice everyone. I'm kind of too chicken to war with them though.

Any tips on how to build up other armies? Do I just keep going Savage Orc?

[Gnarl]

Originally posted by Phaty:

sacking settlements for that money is also better then taking them sometimes and know that if you level up lords and heros enough an army can raid a region and almost cover their entire upkeep and take away public order.

During the Setra campaign I only sacked 2 settlements I think, I was really pushing, and it was kind of a mistake. I was broke at end. But I did keep up more or less with his army spam. I think your way makes more sense. Being broke with nowhere close to raid is killing my progress.

[Budoshi]

why not finish vampire and everything else with him then call it a day? green skins won the end.,sounds like fighting him would be too long and tedious.

[00yiggdrasill00]

a thing to keep in mind is where his armies are if you want to fight. if they are all on the other side of the map then you can hit him in the guts and go wild for a bit. if they are near your land then you can try building up the defences and walls to have an advantage. remember always that its not just about the numbers (as scary as they can get against greenskins) but about how you move you armies around. ambushes and walls make a huge difference. unless he outnumbers you three to one you have a chance to him, just remember to avoid losses of whole units to save gold and stay away from massed field battles.