Coastal city zone of control

[BigRockWall]

In previous total war titles, if I had a stack sitting in a coastal city, and a stack in the water just outside the coastal city, when a land army attacked that coastal city I would have 3 stacks on the field. The city garrison. The army inside the city. And the army in the water reinforcing the city. What was the thought process in nixing that in the warhammer series? This topic has nothing to do with the lack of ship to ship naval battles, just specifically the lack of coastal reinforcement.

There are a few scenarios where it is really impactful, and dark elves suffer here the most. The changes to black arks allowing them to attack, and garrison, coastal cities was IMO excellent. However, the black ark cannot support defending coastal cities unless it is directly garrisoned inside the city.

Also, the black ark is required to initiate the city attack, with armies on land outside it if you want reinforcements. Where this became most frustrating to me was playing coop campaign. I sent a black ark to support my ally, only to find out it literally did nothing. It couldnt support my allies sieges at all. My ally could support my black ark sieging a city but not vice versa.

Another issue not specific to black arks. If there is an enemy stack in the water outside your city, only stacks in the water can fight it. Where as in previous titles the city ZoC extended into the water, allowing city garrison and a stack inside the city to support naval combat against enemy stack in or touching the city ZoC.

[KellyR]

If I'm playing as VCoast, I definitely care about control of sea provinces. Since that determines whether or not my troops can replenish in "sea fort" stance.

[archmag]

First: Zone of control has nothing to do with being able to reinforce. What you mean is simply armies being in reinforcement range (which is a different thing than zone of control) but on different terrain type (sea or actual land) don't count as reinforcements for each other. Zone of control is zone around enemy army or settlement which limits enemy movement (it is marked with red circle on map). If enemy wants to pass through that zone it can only do that by attacking the owner of the zone. Reinforcement range is shown by yellow arrow and there are several skills that improve it for some lords. You don't have to be in red zone to be able to reinforce (actually usually you can't be there as you can't enter it without attacking the enemy with some exceptions) so reinforcement range is slightly larger than zone of control radius even without those skills.

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

Originally posted by Rawfire:

No, this is not like Rome 2 or Attila, there is no naval garrison.

But black arks can siege (blockade) from the water. Why can't regular stacks? And why cant a 2nd black ark support the first

Or why cant the same black ark support a land siege against a coastal city by an allied army?

Second: The thing that black arks can attack enemy settlements is a new feature that was added in recent update. Maybe it will be improved further later.

If we really speak about zone of control and not reinforcements before recent change it made sense that coastal cities don't have naval zone of control because you couldn't attack them from the sea. You needed to land first. And in this case you wouldn't be able to land if they are positioned near the landing area because you can't pass through zone of control without attacking. Would you like to have to sail to another landing place to be able to attack the city instead?

If we speak about reinforcements from different type of terrain they most probably don't work because simply being in range is not enough to check if an army could reinforce. You also need to check if there is a landing place nearby otherwise you will have situations where land army and sea army are standing on two opposite sides of the cliff but somehow manage to reinforce each other. So it is not the same as in land-only battles or sea-only battles where if two armies are in reinforcement range this means that they have a clear way to each other.

It does not mean that it won't be improved further as we see that they keep improving the sea army mechanics - they added island battles, they allowed dark ark leaders to level up and gave them skill trees, they allowed dark arks to attack enemy settlements from the sea. It is quite possible that they will improve reinforcement posibility calculations in the future, but it is not as simple as activating some checkbox, they need to implement actual logic for that and try not to break anything else.

[KellyR]

Originally posted by archmag:

First: Zone of control has nothing to do with being able to reinforce. What you mean is simply armies being in reinforcement range (which is a different thing than zone of control) but on different terrain type (sea or actual land) don't count as reinforcements for each other. Zone of control is zone around enemy army or settlement which limits enemy movement (it is marked with red circle on map). If enemy wants to pass through that zone it can only do that by attacking the owner of the zone. Reinforcement range is shown by yellow arrow and there are several skills that improve it for some lords. You don't have to be in red zone to be able to reinforce (actually usually you can't be there as you can't enter it without attacking the enemy with some exceptions) so reinforcement range is slightly larger than zone of control radius even without those skills.

I'm not talking about reinforcement. I'm talking about troop replenishment. VCoast captains who have shipbuilding can actually replenish lost troops at sea, if they switch to their "recruit while at sea" stance. But ONLY if the sea region they're in is controlled by them or shared with only allied factions. Doesn't work if it's contested or hostile.

[archmag]

Originally posted by KellyR:

I'm not talking about reinforcement. I'm talking about troop replenishment. VCoast captains who have shipbuilding can actually replenish lost troops at sea, if they switch to their "recruit while at sea" stance. But ONLY if the sea region they're in is controlled by them or shared with only allied factions. Doesn't work if it's contested or hostile.

I am not sure why you are talking about replenishment in a thread which talks about reinforcements. The zone of control that OP is talking about and control of sea regions that you talked about are two different things.

My post was addressing OP's initial question where he raises a point that coastal cities don't have zone of control and thus naval armies positioned nearby can't reinforce during the siege if it happens. Would have been easier if I quoted him instead of just replying, sorry for confusing you.

And the point about replenishment is actually an interesting one. When I played Count Noctilus campaign it was really annoying that you need settlements to be able to replenish in the sea. I still managed to win campaign with only single settlement and some coves without any allies but I had to stay near the graveyard most of the time. On land you can switch to some stance which allows you to replenish even in enemy territory, it is strange that the same does not work at sea.

[KellyR]

Originally posted by archmag:

Originally posted by KellyR:

I'm not talking about reinforcement. I'm talking about troop replenishment. VCoast captains who have shipbuilding can actually replenish lost troops at sea, if they switch to their "recruit while at sea" stance. But ONLY if the sea region they're in is controlled by them or shared with only allied factions. Doesn't work if it's contested or hostile.

I am not sure why you are talking about replenishment in a thread which talks about reinforcements. The zone of control that OP is talking about and control of sea regions that you talked about are two different things.

Because I was replying to the post above mine, which mentioned control of sea regions being meaningless.

[BigRockWall]

@archmag

I'm actually talking about both.

In rome 2 for example, if you wanted to attack a coastal city from the water you could do so. If you wanted to land first (so your army doesn't have to disembark on the battle map first, or you wanted your transport stack to be able to reinforced a land stack while you siege etc etc) you could blockade with 1 stack from the sea, nullifying the cities coastal ZoC, then land a 2nd stack because the ZoC wasnt stopping you from landing next to the city anymore

Agreed being able to reinforce a siege is dependent on the army not the city ZoC. So yes the embarked armies would also need a fix to make them able to reinforce a siege from the water. But both things IMO should happen. It would be a nice change

[archmag]

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

In rome 2 for example, if you wanted to attack a coastal city from the water you could do so. If you wanted to land first (so your army doesn't have to disembark on the battle map first, or you wanted your transport stack to be able to reinforced a land stack while you siege etc etc) you could blockade with 1 stack from the sea, nullifying the cities coastal ZoC, then land a 2nd stack because the ZoC wasnt stopping you from landing next to the city anymore

This was impossible to do in WH2 until recent change and I am not even sure if that change was applied only to black arks or to all armies. I think only black arks can attack settlements from the sea, all other armies still must land first, but I am not sure.

But both things IMO should happen. It would be a nice change

Maybe they will happen in the future. As I said things for sea armies mechanics keep improving.